Dynamic Range - Try it for yourself, conclude for yourself: 5D III vs. A7r

[Dantana]

I really screwed up my knee, and weather is blowing in rather fiercely now. I can hardly walk, so hiking up to my landscape spots (Long Lake is a great one, but it's a decent hike up past Brainard Lake, which is a nice area...and I can't take any hikes like that now. ).

I'll see what I can do about getting some more demonstration shots. Given the tone of this thread, I don't think it will matter much...same old stuff, same old retorts, same old nastiness. I simply set out to demonstrate the differences, as best as possible...which required an extreme situation. It doesn't matter if you always do a 5-stop push, even with a one or two stop push, the differences can be realized.

I'm pretty dismayed at some of the insults being thrown, not even at myself, it's just not necessary (Sporgon!) We can be civil about this issue.

I'm sorry to hear about your knee. Go easy on it. I know you are on a rental timeline, and I'm looking forward to seeing your images, but don't hurt it any more than you have to.

 

[LetTheRightLensIn]

That's kinda rich since you were the one who brought portfolios and hinted that the DR side is basically a bunch of zero portfolio types.

You were the one who started trying to make claims that one side had the portfolios.

Why so defensive? No one's call you out personally

Because it's tiresome to have seen years worth of such general veiled, or not so veiled, insults. Some very knowledgeable posters don't even post in any forums any more and it feels like they were driven away. I think they got sick of being constantly attacked and personally insulted. Some stuck around longer but became a lot chippier themselves after a while.

Not to mention that you asked me why I decided to bring this up and I was just pointing that it was you who brought up the whole portfolio thing.

And there has been a lot of very personal calling out and other nonsense, including with just the last two days alone. Unless "pathetic lens cap shooting dweebs who never take an actual photo" or "incompetent morons who don't understand how to take a photo or have even the most basic post-processing skills or any real knowledge about anything" doesn't count....

 

[LetTheRightLensIn]

To the OP: let's see you capture a scene that includes the actual sun disc recorded in the EV range and lift shadows from a shaded area with the A7r. This is the only situation in which my Canon gear cannot cope.

Of course you will fail. I know because I have already tried with a D800. That's why myself and hundreds, nay thousands of 'landscape' orientated photographers are still using Canon.

you mean like this one?..
www.canonrumors.com/forum/index.php?topic=8105.msg161888#msg161888
good luck using a Digic 4 or 5 Canon for a shot like the first one, you would not be able to re-tone the image to look like it does to the eye.
How does a Canon user cope with such a shot? Cry and go home? Spend many hours in post, trying to tame the stripes and fix the muddy dark tones to have some sort of semi-realistic texture? HAHAHA! Bracket?!? ;D

the last 2 in that post could even be done with a 7D, not that I'd chose one if I had an ABC alternative available.

Yeh, you can't do that with a Canon..........

That example was only like a half stop or stop lift of lower mid-tones, not near black areas.

It was a +100 shadow lift, basically a two stop lower lift, plus a modest exposure lift.

If that isn't "enough" then here it is with a totally unrealistic lift, a +100 shadow lift and a 1.5 stop exposure lift on the bottom, looks kind of ridiculous even though I held the sky back with a filter in post. Don't forget this is with a 2002 4.2MP camera with a >3.5 lift in post at 100%.

And yet the really dark parts still look pitch black which seems to hint that you are really lifting low mid-tones and not deep shadows.

 

[jrista]

I really screwed up my knee, and weather is blowing in rather fiercely now. I can hardly walk, so hiking up to my landscape spots (Long Lake is a great one, but it's a decent hike up past Brainard Lake, which is a nice area...and I can't take any hikes like that now. ).

I'll see what I can do about getting some more demonstration shots. Given the tone of this thread, I don't think it will matter much...same old stuff, same old retorts, same old nastiness. I simply set out to demonstrate the differences, as best as possible...which required an extreme situation. It doesn't matter if you always do a 5-stop push, even with a one or two stop push, the differences can be realized.

I'm pretty dismayed at some of the insults being thrown, not even at myself, it's just not necessary (Sporgon!) We can be civil about this issue.

I'm sorry to hear about your knee. Go easy on it. I know you are on a rental timeline, and I'm looking forward to seeing your images, but don't hurt it any more than you have to.

Knee on the one leg is in fairly bad shape. I don't think I broke anything, but I am pretty sure I bruised the bone. I really didn't see it coming, went strait down. Dim red light of my astro headlight didn't reveal any shadows...so I didn't think there were any rocks where I was walking. I haven't hurt myself like that since I was a kid... Whole leg is extremely sore now, and I apparently knocked the other knee as well as it, too, hurts, just not as bad. Walking is a chore, to say the least, and a painful one at that. Just...one of those weekends, I guess.

Not much to show for the rental time, other than more familiarity with the A7r. I still think it's a mixed bag, with the mix leaning towards "Needs Improvement." Was a totally clouded out, rainy day Sunday. I didn't really get anything to compare. I took both cameras out to do some comparison shots with the 50mm f/1.4 lens, but started hearing thunder, and just took shots with the A7r until the rain hit. The majority of the aspen landscape shots done with the A7r were ruined because I had to manually press the shutter button myself for bracketing to work, and it did not have a timer option for bracketed shots, which resulted in camera shake (I'd taken my Gitzo Mountaineer along, an ultra light, but therefor not as sturdy, tripod). The only shots that did come out were a series for a panorama of aspens lining a meadow...hoping those turn out, as I did not bracket, and I did use a timer setting, so the camera should have had time to stabilize.

Ironically, one set of shots that I took that I never thought would show any difference between the two cameras ended up exhibiting some banding in the shadows for the 5D III...I'll share those RAWs when I get a chance. Not much...but at the moment, it's all I've got. Ironically, it's a mild case of 5D III banding where the A7r outshone it without me even trying...the ultimate unintentional real-world non-contrived DR comparison. Maybe people will trust that one better.

 

[dtaylor]

I really screwed up my knee, and weather is blowing in rather fiercely now. I can hardly walk, so hiking up to my landscape spots (Long Lake is a great one, but it's a decent hike up past Brainard Lake, which is a nice area...and I can't take any hikes like that now. ).

I know you and I have been at each other's throats in past threads, and we will likely never agree on just how much that extra Exmor latitude matters or doesn't matter.

But all debating aside, I am sorry to hear about your injury and I hope you heal quickly and completely.

 

[Sandrine]

It's an interesting test, funda piel iphone 6 plus and a useful comparison. I'm also happy that there's balance here. The A7R gives you these impressive and useful for some DR characteristics. But protector pantalla iphone 6 plus as jrista says it's coming at a big cost, AF, EVF etc are much poorer.

 

[Aglet]

Knee on the one leg is in fairly bad shape. I don't think I broke anything, but ..

sorry to hear that, especially when you had a weekend planned, even if the Wx didn't quite cooperate.
I did a bunch of similar damage to a knee many ago too, more than once, actually, and much more than my knees. Took months for me to get back to normal walking and still have some good scars and use limitations. I hope you fare much better. I'm frustrating I can't go on long hikes any more.
OTOH, I chuckle at the reaction I see whenever some x-ray tech looks over my images before forwarding them, they just look at me and shake their head. ;D

 

[Aglet]

I posted that particular picture for two reasons, first because of the composition being so similar to yours, the second because I knew you would do the "oh but the 1Ds MkIII is the only Canon camera that could do that" so it is from a 2002 1D.

HAHA! I see you like messin' with us.
BUT - I could boot up my old 40D and it would also fare quite well with a deep shadow lift.
The challenge is to rework a shot like that on a Digic 4 or Digic 5 body. Digic 3 and older didn't generally have as much of an FPN problem, even if they still had plenty of noise.

 

[Aglet]

Sorry, tools like that do not meet my standards of image quality, not when they come with that kind of price tag.
If you're happy with them, great. But image quality like this is the reason I dumped Canon and went to ABC cameras.
Most people likely would not notice the noise, I sure do, much as I listen to the silence between the music.

Apparently your standards of image quality are higher than those of photographers who shoot with Canon ... Sam Abell, David Burnett, Patrick Demarchelier, Greg Gorman, Lauren Greenfield, Gregory Heisler, David Hume Kennerly, Douglas Kirkland, Antonin Kratochvil, Vincent Laforet, Annie Liebovitz, Don McCullin, Eric Meola, Peter Read Miller, James Nachtwey, Martin Parr, Paolo Pellegrin, Denis Reggie, Sebastiao Salgado, Mario Sorrenti, Pete Souza, Joyce Tenneson, Damon Winter, etc. I know some of them don't shoot Canon exclusively, but with all of the talk about Canon's poor sensors, it's a wonder they shoot Canon at all. Those folks just don't have image quality standards like you do, or maybe they just photograph easy-peasy stuff without too much dynamic range.

My standards ARE high. Is that a bad thing?

When I see a great image, like the one a few pages back, that's marred by muddy shadows full of chroma noise and banding that I find obvious even at a 2 and 3 MP reduction, there's a problem with the CAMERA, not the photographer.
See and think for yourself, spewing a bunch of random names is meaningless to me and pointless to your argument if these are supposed to be pros. Many big name pros have an army of photoshop'ers working behind the scenes to fix the problems.
While you're at it, why didn't you include Joe McNally? There's a guy who knows how to use light to make an image, whatever gear he's using. Canon likely bought him off with a crate of RT600s, saves him a bunch of setup time but I wonder if he's secretly using Nikon when he's alone in the woods...

 

[tapanit]

Just to see how far I could push things, here a couple more versions, not particularly "realistic", but still a good demonstration of what's possible and how the raw data reacts. No interpretation of the data needed here...5D III totally falls apart. A7r...noisy...but manageable.

Interestingly, I don't really see any significant difference between them, even in the +5 ones (calling the 5D3 one "falling apart" is totally ridiculous, it's a perfectly usable picture). Admittedly my eyes are old and I'm looking at the pictures with a relatively lowly monitor, but that's what I'd mostly do anyway. I guess it means the DR difference isn't a good reason to go for Sony, *for me* - your mileage may vary.

 

[leGreve]

Just to see how far I could push things, here a couple more versions, not particularly "realistic", but still a good demonstration of what's possible and how the raw data reacts. No interpretation of the data needed here...5D III totally falls apart. A7r...noisy...but manageable.

Interestingly, I don't really see any significant difference between them, even in the +5 ones (calling the 5D3 one "falling apart" is totally ridiculous, it's a perfectly usable picture). Admittedly my eyes are old and I'm looking at the pictures with a relatively lowly monitor, but that's what I'd mostly do anyway. I guess it means the DR difference isn't a good reason to go for Sony, *for me* - your mileage may vary.

Seriously?

The +5 ones are from a professional standpoint completely unusable compared to the Sony shot.... look how the chair is muddying up on the side.
The Sony retains the detail to a degree where even the shadows are somewhat acceptable. The Canon shot... I would never present that to a client and pretend that it would be ok.

 

[J.R.]

Just to see how far I could push things, here a couple more versions, not particularly "realistic", but still a good demonstration of what's possible and how the raw data reacts. No interpretation of the data needed here...5D III totally falls apart. A7r...noisy...but manageable.

Interestingly, I don't really see any significant difference between them, even in the +5 ones (calling the 5D3 one "falling apart" is totally ridiculous, it's a perfectly usable picture). Admittedly my eyes are old and I'm looking at the pictures with a relatively lowly monitor, but that's what I'd mostly do anyway. I guess it means the DR difference isn't a good reason to go for Sony, *for me* - your mileage may vary.

I arrived at the same conclusion but for different reasons. To me both shots are unusable

 

[tomscott]

How often would you shoot that scene like that to get a useable image? Never… IMO a test of how far you can push the tech and its an extreme test, interesting but extreme.

There is barely anything to recover from its so under exposed, basically a black image, even tho the sony resolves more +5 is ridiculous, I would never send something like that out.

Ok expose for the highlights but there is nothing to recover the blinds have no detail to show, ok if it was a landscape in the background and the blinds were open to let more light in…

Either way if you were shooting this commercially you would bracket with both cameras, you would never shoot one image, to expect the camera to be able to resolve that is just silly and again extreme. Once you bracket the difference becomes much slimmer.

Yes from playing with the raw file the sony is impressive and does open up more possibility but again, I personally don't shoot like that and also wouldn't send something like that out, although in a pinch is definitely useful.

I think tho these technologies start to render the actual skill of the photographer as useless and you can rely on the tech too much as in ye its fine il sort in it post. I don't like that attitude.

I understand your frustration Jrista, I think your a great contributor but there are ways and means of getting around the problem, just enjoy shooting instead of fixating on a problem that there are answers too

 

[tapanit]

Interestingly, I don't really see any significant difference between them, even in the +5 ones

Seriously?

The +5 ones are from a professional standpoint completely unusable compared to the Sony shot.... look how the chair is muddying up on the side.
The Sony retains the detail to a degree where even the shadows are somewhat acceptable. The Canon shot... I would never present that to a client and pretend that it would be ok.

Well, I'm not a professional photographer - but as a potential client, I can say I could well consider paying for a photo of similar quality to the Canon +5 one, if the content of the image was what I wanted. And I'm willing to bet most non-photographers wouldn't see the difference even as well as I do.

 

[tomscott]

Im not a Canon fan boy but there is a huge difference between the two images. You could probably get away with the Sony but not the Canon. Professionally tho an image like that is IMO bad practice and it is just a test. You would shoot this differently.

I used to shoot property for a local estate agent and they would insist I used their cameras for insurance reasons, unfortunately 1100D and some really poor tokina 10-24mm wide angle lens :-\ comparing this to my 5DMKIII is night and day, but I used it and I got good results with 3 brackets… in HDR situations

Swan House, Thornthwaite, Keswick, Dining area for PFK Estate Agents by TomScottPhoto, on Flickr

I find unless there is something to see out of a window or a view recovering the highlights gives an image too HDR like and looks unrealistic prefer the light to actually come through the window.

Swan House, Thornthwaite, Keswick, Kitchen/Living room for PFK Estate Agents by TomScottPhoto, on Flickr

High Chestnut Hill, Kitchen, Keswick, Cumbria, PFK by TomScottPhoto, on Flickr

 

[Sporgon]

I posted that particular picture for two reasons, first because of the composition being so similar to yours, the second because I knew you would do the "oh but the 1Ds MkIII is the only Canon camera that could do that" so it is from a 2002 1D.

HAHA! I see you like messin' with us.
BUT - I could boot up my old 40D and it would also fare quite well with a deep shadow lift.
The challenge is to rework a shot like that on a Digic 4 or Digic 5 body. Digic 3 and older didn't generally have as much of an FPN problem, even if they still had plenty of noise.

But I did just that a few pages ago with a 5DII - dig!c 4. I've now deleted those examples and won't be posting any more because it is clear that some people will not be moved even when the proof stares them in the face.

In my experience the Dig!c 4 cameras do have more FPN that both the earlier and later versions but it is buried so deep that it is just irrelevant 99.9% of the time to 99.9% of people.

 

[melbournite]

Thank you jrista for sharing these raw files with us to allow me to see first hand the differences between the two sensors albeit in this one niche area.

It's always good to know and see what the competition sensors are able to do with the use of our own software rather than just reading about it.

And this was a good comparison for me to test against a camera I own and love (5DIII) and a camera I hear some much about.

 

[3kramd5]

Not much to show for the rental time, other than more familiarity with the A7r. I still think it's a mixed bag, with the mix leaning towards "Needs Improvement."

Me too. I'll keep mine for situations where I really want resolution (which tend to be situations where I'm sitting around with my tripod waiting and thus have the time to work around the interface), but it is quite ponderous to use. 95 times out of 100, I'll take a 5D.

 

[J.R.]

In my experience the Dig!c 4 cameras do have more FPN that both the earlier and later versions but it is buried so deep that it is just irrelevant 99.9% of the time to 99.9% of people.

Yes, it is irrelevant to most people simply because not everyone underexposes their photos massively needing to push their photos by 5 stops to make them "usable".

 

[tomscott]

What I find funny is if you go over to sonyalpharumors many people compare the new Exmor to the 5DMKIII and admit it is a better camera system all round.

These are all comments by sonyalpharumors members on the latest sensor threads.

"dynamic range at higher ISO's where the 5DIII's lurch ahead of their nikon/sony counterparts"

Funny how even they think DXO is dodgy "If you leave DxOMark planet and land back to earth, you'll see that in real life the difference is very very little, and after ISO400 Canon 6D and 5DMarkIII are as good as or better than Sony sensors"

Also most are in the same camp bout the mega pixel war and know that sony needs to create more native faster lenses 'I'd rather have faster autofocus, in body stabilization, quieter shutter and more native lenses (and faster ones) than more megapixels.'

http://www.sonyalpharumors.com/the-high-megapixel-war-rumors-canon-46mp-camera-coming-soon-and-sony-in-januaryfebruary/

From that article it seems they are excited to see what Canon do with this new sensor, because although sony make the best sensors their cameras and systems are a lot less than to be desired. Also How much more R&D do sony actually have after putting all into exmor?

Canon was in a similar position a few years ago and then regurgitated the same tech for the last 5 years so that will be interesting to see how far sony can push their tech and if Canon does have new tech how it will rival and the time scales because sony is to announce their new sensors early 2015.

I think thats what we are forgetting and a lot of people on here are the other way round ATM DR and resolution is all the rage and aggressively contested, forget about all that Canon has over its competition and that the 5DMKIII is far from being thrown to the parts bin.