EOS 5D Mark IV Testing Has Begun [CR2]

[slclick]

Sure my point is in the minority, just like wanting a stills only body but my main point was to counter the smugness stone thrown with sensibility. Maybe your so called 'nothing alternative' is a positive one. Less is more.

You're not alone. But it's also funny that you have the same opinion about the videofunction inside actual DSLRs. Maybe we're more or less oldschool photographers, no hipsters with popupflashs, swivel screens or 4k video-nonsense. The only Thing I would like on 4k is to get enough fps for freezing fast motions.

I don't see any sense in a cheap flash which I never use (and I mean never! I carried the analogue EOS5 for 10 years). But I would have to carry the flash around 100% of the time. Users who need such a toy should get a Speedlight and glue it to the Body.

So, by never using it, you really have no idea what it can do.

Come on, you can do better than that!

VSCD may have 10x the experience with strobes, on and off camera than you or I.

Internet boards are always so full of strong, angry statements about very minor details.

 

[vscd]

So, by never using it, you really have no idea what it can do.

Weird logic. If you say you can do something I can't do with a external flash on the same camera then I think all 1D Series Cameras are nothing for you. Of course a small flash can be used if you have nothing else with you and you need a flash light, but you can even get a nail in the wall with a spoon. But I prefer to be prepared on a job and carry the hammer with me instead of a spoon all the time.

Even the design sucks (check the clean body of a EOS1). Did you ever see a Speedlight 90EX for real? You can attach it on your body and probably will forget that the thing is still on the body...

There you have your spoon. 8)

 

[Lee Jay]

So, by never using it, you really have no idea what it can do.

Weird logic. If you say you can do something I can't do with a external flash on the same camera then I think all 1D Series Cameras are nothing for you. Of course a small flash can be used if you have nothing else with you and you need a flash light, but you can even get a nail in the wall with a spoon. But I prefer to be prepared on a job and carry the hammer with me instead of a spoon all the time.

Even the design sucks (check the clean body of a EOS1). Did you ever see a Speedlight 90EX for real? You can attach it on your body and probably will forget that the thing is still on the body...

There you have your spoon. 8)

I have three full-sized flashes.

Let me ask you this. Let's say you're going to a low-light situation you haven't seen before and you have to decide which to take. You can take a 580EX *OR* a 35/1.4L. Which would you take? Remember, you don't know what you're going to find.

I'd rather take the fast lens and a popup than have no fast lens at all, especially since the popup is so useful for so many things.

The flash I currently use on my 5D is a Sunpac RD2000. It's very tiny, bounceable, and has a diffuser. It even runs on just two AA batteries. Perfect right? No, it's a pain in the neck. It's often not available when I need it, it's fragile and it gets stuck on things.

 

[vscd]

It's often not available when I need it

So, the body is only the insurrance for you to not forget your flashequipment? Hmm, I can live with that but why have a lot of other people to suffer for it? Really, it's more difficult to make a 100% viewfinder with a flash on top of the prism. It weights more, is prone to break and costs s few bucks more than necessary.

Maybe I could change my mind with something really interesting like a flash with turnable head or at least a possibilty to pop up in 90 degree but most of them are lousy spotlights.

And to your comparison with lens or 35 f1.4... I don't get the point, sorry. If I go to available light shootings I don't use a flash at all (or again a bigger one far away). That's the reason why they call it "available" light.

 

[Sporgon]

Interchangeable focus screens!

+1

I think there is every chance it will have. Canon have introduced it to the 7DII. Given the sort of camera a 7DII is I can't see in what world that camera would have an interchangeable screen and a 5DIV not.

By the way, chalk up my entry into the 'I hate pop up flash' club.

 

[Eldar]

Interchangeable focus screens!

+1

I think there is every chance it will have. Canon have introduced it to the 7DII. Given the sort of camera a 7DII is I can't see in what world that camera would have an interchangeable screen and a 5DIV not.

By the way, chalk up my entry into the 'I hate pop up flash' club.

I´ll join you for both interchangeable focus screens and the "I hate pop up flash" club.

 

[meywd]

Interchangeable focus screens!

+1

I think there is every chance it will have. Canon have introduced it to the 7DII. Given the sort of camera a 7DII is I can't see in what world that camera would have an interchangeable screen and a 5DIV not.

By the way, chalk up my entry into the 'I hate pop up flash' club.

I´ll join you for both interchangeable focus screens and the "I hate pop up flash" club.

+1

 

[Lee Jay]

It's often not available when I need it

So, the body is only the insurrance for you to not forget your flashequipment?

Do we have a language barrier or something?

The little flash is fragile and catches on things. So I don't put it on the camera unless I need it. If I need it, I might need it for a fleeting moment that's too short for me to get it, mount it, and wait for it to charge, whereas the popup is ready with a button press and a second of charging.

Hmm, I can live with that but why have a lot of other people to suffer for it? Really, it's more difficult to make a 100% viewfinder with a flash on top of the prism. It weights more, is prone to break and costs s few bucks more than necessary.

It doesn't cost anyone anything but the small cost to the body. If you don't like it, don't use it. Nikon and Canon have both figured out how to incorporate popup flashes on full-frame bodies. It weighs nothing compared to a 580 or 600.

And to your comparison with lens or 35 f1.4... I don't get the point, sorry. If I go to available light shootings I don't use a flash at all (or again a bigger one far away). That's the reason why they call it "available" light.

I have room in my bag for *either the 35L or the 580EX*. Let's say I'm on travel. I don't know where I'm going or what I'll see. So which should I leave behind? Answer - I leave the 580 because it's useful in fewer situations than the 35L, but I sometimes need at least something, so I take the Sunpac, which is often not ready when I need it.

If I had a popup, I would have a reliable flash ready when I need it, and I wouldn't have to leave a lens behind to have it with me.

It's absolutely amazing how many people complain about the popup on these threads while no one who uses a 7D series camera makes the same complaint. And the little difference in prism size isn't the reason. It's just smugness like having a popup deflates your manhood or something.

 

[3kramd5]

Let me ask you this. Let's say you're going to a low-light situation you haven't seen before and you have to decide which to take. You can take a 580EX *OR* a 35/1.4L. Which would you take? Remember, you don't know what you're going to find.

What a strange contrived scenario.

 

[slclick]

It's often not available when I need it

So, the body is only the insurrance for you to not forget your flashequipment?

Do we have a language barrier or something?

The little flash is fragile and catches on things. So I don't put it on the camera unless I need it. If I need it, I might need it for a fleeting moment that's too short for me to get it, mount it, and wait for it to charge, whereas the popup is ready with a button press and a second of charging.

Hmm, I can live with that but why have a lot of other people to suffer for it? Really, it's more difficult to make a 100% viewfinder with a flash on top of the prism. It weights more, is prone to break and costs s few bucks more than necessary.

It doesn't cost anyone anything but the small cost to the body. If you don't like it, don't use it. Nikon and Canon have both figured out how to incorporate popup flashes on full-frame bodies. It weighs nothing compared to a 580 or 600.

And to your comparison with lens or 35 f1.4... I don't get the point, sorry. If I go to available light shootings I don't use a flash at all (or again a bigger one far away). That's the reason why they call it "available" light.

I have room in my bag for *either the 35L or the 580EX*. Let's say I'm on travel. I don't know where I'm going or what I'll see. So which should I leave behind? Answer - I leave the 580 because it's useful in fewer situations than the 35L, but I sometimes need at least something, so I take the Sunpac, which is often not ready when I need it.

If I had a popup, I would have a reliable flash ready when I need it, and I wouldn't have to leave a lens behind to have it with me.

It's absolutely amazing how many people complain about the popup on these threads while no one who uses a 7D series camera makes the same complaint. And the little difference in prism size isn't the reason. It's just smugness like having a popup deflates your manhood or something.

Why do you equate smugness with choice? I do not see the implied emotion you seem so hell bent on proving.

 

[Lee Jay]

Why do you equate smugness with choice? I do not see the implied emotion you seem so hell bent on proving.

How do you equate a lack of choice with choosing?

There's no good reason NOT to have one available. The D750, D800 and D810 demonstrate that, and those are cameras in the 5D's market. The 7D series demonstrates that it's not a device that makes the camera less reliable or rugged. If you choose not to use it, that's your choice, but not having it is not making a choice, it's having the manufacturer make the choice for you.

 

[slclick]

Why do you equate smugness with choice? I do not see the implied emotion you seem so hell bent on proving.

How do you equate a lack of choice with choosing?

There's no good reason NOT to have one available. The D750, D800 and D810 demonstrate that, and those are cameras in the 5D's market. The 7D series demonstrates that it's not a device that makes the camera less reliable or rugged. If you choose not to use it, that's your choice, but not having it is not making a choice, it's having the manufacturer make the choice for you.

Semantics on the forum. Good golly.

 

[Tugela]

...
Especially for Dilbert and Neuroanatomist.
H.265 was designed to compliment Rec.2020 (about 4.5X the color space of Rec.709) and to take advantage of computational improvements in dual & quad processing as well as dedicated processing (like the Arm Big / Little processors used in new iPhones & iPads). These also produce less heat and use less power when not under load its simply not true to say parallel processing is less efficient its the exact opposite newer processors reduce errors and have enabled faster readouts and multi-tasking the other advantage is less readout / dark current noise because signals can be reprocessed before writing to cards etc.

Ah, the "lets use Google and post" response.

Video decoding/encoding = load.

Where did you cut/paste that from?

Dilbert you really can be a plank I can see why Neuroanatomist losses his rag with you. Yes I cut that from Wikipedia for quickness but I understand the basis of it because unlike you I sit on committees that decide standards and impliment them globally and work within an international organisation at the highest end of image capture I could go on but its pointless on people like you.

I've been a part of standards organisations and ... lets just say that what you posted didn't argue against anything I said about h.265 encoding requiring more effort from the CPU and thus producing more heat.

In order to save space (i.e generate smaller files), h.265 is more computationally expensive (requires more CPU) than h.264. Depending on who you ask, H.265 is anywhere from 5x to 100x more computationally expensive than H.264. Note that what you pasted above does not disagree with this. If it is more computationally expensive then it requires more power too.

To do H.265 with maximum efficiency requires hardware support in either the CPU or GPU. Canon cameras combine the two (CPU+GPU) into the one package (the DIGIC chip.)

The logic behind my statement is something like this:

If the 5D4 has DIGIC 7 and doesn't do 4k video then it is likely that DIGIC 7 doesn't have on-chip h.265 and considering that DIGIC 7 is effectively a "family" or "platform", it is unlikely that Canon would have some DIGIC 7 with h.265 and some without, thus meaning no H.265 until at least DIGIC 8 and thus no 4k until at least DIGIC 8.

Whilst the 1DC does 4K with DIGIC 6, the 1DC doesn't produce H.265 output and is rumoured (has anyone posted pics of a 1DC opened up?) to have a changed design due to extra heat from 4k encoding (4x the data rate of 1080p!) Thus it is safe to assume that DIGIC 6 wasn't designed for 4k and hence why no other current Canon DSLR does 4k.

By comparison, Canon DSLRs (5D2 and onwards) that do 1080p produce h.264 video, suggesting that there is hardware capability built in for that.

It depends on when Canon climbed on-board HEVC / H.265 a number of companies now have hardware / software on everything from servers, set-top boxes, video cards etc. that support both H265/H.264 and in one case these chips are not expensive. I dont know whether the DIGIC processors are entirely in-house designed or designed in partnership with SoC suppliers. The other intruging thing is Canon have gone a different route with the XC-10 and the C300MKII both using a Canon XF-AVC codec still utilising H.264 and not compatable with Sony an industry standard by comparison.

Those cameras use Digic DV5 processors, which are/should be the video equivalent of the Digic 7. Since they use H.264 it is likely that a Digic 7 will do the same. If the 5D4 comes with Digic 7 processors, it will probably shoot a somewhat scaled down version of XF-AVC at 4K. If it comes with Digic 6 then it will probably shoot 1080p60 like the 7D2.

 

[Tugela]

What are you guys arguing concerning Digic 6/7 and 4K video/h.265?

H.265 encoding? yes that would need new processor support, and yes of course more power. I don't see Canon implementing H.265 anytime soon as there's no current support for it.

That is not true. Current generation Intel processors support it, as do the latest GPUs I believe. It can also be played natively in at least some 4K TV sets.

 

[Loswr]

There's no good reason NOT to have one available.

There's no good reason NOT to have popup left and right mics on the camera for better stereo sound recording. There's no good reason NOT to include a cap-keeper with every lens. Oh, those things aren't important to you, so you don't want them? How terribly smug of you... :

I'm not against popup flashes per se, except from the 'it's one more thing that can break' standpoint (on a couple of occasions I've put sufficient pressure on the prism housing of my 1D X that I suspect a popup flash would have cracked). But...I find them useless, and why would I want something on my camera that I have no intention of using? The power is insufficient and the light quality is horrible. If a popup flash is 'the only way to get the shot' then I might as well use my iPhone. As for having to choose what to bring, the US Coast Guard has a motto for that – Semper Paratus. So you chose the 35L over the Speedlite? If it was important, you'd have brought both. No room in the bag? You need a bigger bag...

Worth noting that a popup flash had good utility for a while, as an optical master for off-camera flash. The RT system obviated that use to a great extent.

 

[slclick]

There's no good reason NOT to have one available.

There's no good reason NOT to have popup left and right mics on the camera for better stereo sound recording. There's no good reason NOT to include a cap-keeper with every lens. Oh, those things aren't important to you, so you don't want them? How terribly smug of you... :

I'm not against popup flashes per se, except from the 'it's one more thing that can break' standpoint (on a couple of occasions I've put sufficient pressure on the prism housing of my 1D X that I suspect a popup flash would have cracked). But...I find them useless, and why would I want something on my camera that I have no intention of using? The power is insufficient and the light quality is horrible. If a popup flash is 'the only way to get the shot' then I might as well use my iPhone. As for having to choose what to bring, the US Coast Guard has a motto for that – Semper Paratus. So you chose the 35L over the Speedlite? If it was important, you'd have brought both. No room in the bag? You need a bigger bag...

Worth noting that a popup flash had good utility for a while, as an optical master for off-camera flash. The RT system obviated that use to a great extent.

We were doing quite well thank you on our own and then you had to come along and add all that common sense to the discussion. Sheesh. Oh and btw, I never had read anyone using the term 'pishposh' while bashing the pop up flash. And we all know it's is a smugness requirement. Really, it's in the handbook.

 

[jeffa4444]

...
It depends on when Canon climbed on-board HEVC / H.265 a number of companies now have hardware / software on everything from servers, set-top boxes, video cards etc. that support both H265/H.264 and in one case these chips are not expensive.

This has nothing to do with it.

I dont know whether the DIGIC processors are entirely in-house designed or designed in partnership with SoC suppliers. The other intruging thing is Canon have gone a different route with the XC-10 and the C300MKII both using a Canon XF-AVC codec still utilising H.264 and not compatable with Sony an industry standard by comparison.

FYI the 1DC doesn't do XF-AVC, it does MPEG, which suggests that the DIGIC DV has hardware h.264 encoding in it but not h.265.


Since the 1DC is using DIGIC 6 and that has h.264 1080p capability, it would seem that this cannot be used in a 4k pipeline else the 1DC would use that already (it doesn't) for 4K. i.e. the h.264 in DIGIC 6 is likely optimized and designed for 1080p use only.

Dilbert your really special you state what I put has nothing to do with it and yet with another poster point to those as I do already supporting H.265 in hardware and software your arrogance knows no bounds.

 

[Loswr]

Since the 1DC is using DIGIC 6 and that has h.264 1080p capability, it would seem that this cannot be used in a 4k pipeline else the 1DC would use that already (it doesn't) for 4K. i.e. the h.264 in DIGIC 6 is likely optimized and designed for 1080p use only.

: : :

 

[LOALTD]

As other's have pointed out, you don't have to have H.265/HEVC to do 4K.


Only *ONE* camera (Samsung NX1) currently encodes using this compression.


I just brought it up because it would be nice to have in a camera that typically has a 3-4 year lifespan. In only a year or two even devices like the Roku and Apple TV will have H.265/HEVC hardware support (you can quote me on that!). Smartphones like the LG G4 and HTC M9


I agree that the Samsung NX1 footage is a P-I-T-A to edit right now. But that will evaporate as soon as non-linear editing programs and Intel's next generation have solid support for it. It's just in the growing pains stage right now.


Hell, give me H.265 1080p, I want to save some damn HDD space!

 

[romanr74]

...
Please no flash. Please no tilting swifeling falling off clumsy breaking apart prone display.
...

What about those rubber things that cover holes on the side of the camera, get rid of them too?

Afterall, they're prone to getting broken off..

I hate these rubber-things to be honest. But they are nothing you are supposed to fiddle around with every other minute...