EOS 6D Mark II & New DSLR Body in 2017

[jeffa4444]

Re: EOS 6D Mark II & New DSLR Body in 2017

Canon 6D .............. Nikon D610
Canon ?? .............. Nikon D750
Canon 5D MKIV .......... Nikon D810
Canon 5Ds / r ........... Nikon ??
Canon 1D X MKII ......... Nikon D5

My money is on a competitor to the Nikon D750 with the Canon 5D MKIV going up in price to match 5Ds/r pricing.

Your middle three don't line up at all. This is the problem with FF segmentation -- only two of the segments (entry-level and gripped) are set. The rest vary from company to company:

Of the following segments: Video / Good / Better / Best / Gripped

Nikon's lineup = Nothing / D610 / D750 / D810 / D5

Sony's lineup = A7S / A7 II / Nothing / A7R II / Nothing

Canon's lineup = Nothing / 6D / 5D3 / 5DS / 1DX2

And yes, I recognize the 5D3/5D4 segment is not the better segment, it's the 'all-arounder' segment for Canon, and the 5DS is not the best segment, it's the 'detail' segment from Canon. Neither line up naturally to any of the competition.

So as Dilbert (previously) and Jeffa (above) are trying to do, we lose as a user base when we try to keep up with the Joneses in the segments that they have defined. Canon is wise to have a different segmentation/portfolio that the competition doesn't line up to.

- A

That maybe your opinion but when it comes to the general public and camera stores they do compare the 6D to the D610 or the 5D MKIII to the D810 as do many reviewers, don't take my word for it just search the web.

 

[ahsanford]

Re: EOS 6D Mark II & New DSLR Body in 2017

Improved sensors are always nice, but what I miss the most in features on the current 6D is a tilt screen. I do a lot of macro at ground level using live view magnification for fine-tuned focus - I really miss the 60D tilt screen.

If the 6D2 is moving upmarket as was famously alleged (perhaps to run along side the 'affordable all-arounder' that is the D750), a tilt-screen seems a very high probability.

If the 6D2 will remain the affordable 'entry' FF rig... I was going to say no tilty-flippy, but I just think it will have it regardless of where it's positioned.

It's a enthusiast/prosumer rig that isn't going to cover warzones or polar expeditions. I think it's getting a tilty-flippy. I very well could be wrong.

- A

 

[ahsanford]

Re: EOS 6D Mark II & New DSLR Body in 2017

That maybe your opinion but when it comes to the general public and camera stores they do compare the 6D to the D610 or the 5D MKIII to the D810 as do many reviewers, don't take my word for it just search the web.

Oh, I agree, but that's because of price. Compare the features and a 5D3 is much more of a D750 competitor today.

I think the 'drift' of the segments over the last few years, including:

• Wildly different refresh timelines (Canon = glacial, Nikon = average, Sony = cocaine-fueled)
• The introduction of the 'affordable all-arounder' segment with the D750
• The bracing A-bomb of a 50 MP offering (regardless of whether it's only 'good' and not 'D810 good' in sensor tests)
• Sony making a concerted effort with a low res / video / low light monster product line

Says that the companies' don't feel a compulsion to punch-back with identically spec'd rigs in pre-ordained segments.

This very well may be a good thing. Companies are trying to stand out rather than say 'yeah we have that, too'.

- A

 

[arcer]

Re: EOS 6D Mark II & New DSLR Body in 2017

Improved sensors are always nice, but what I miss the most in features on the current 6D is a tilt screen. I do a lot of macro at ground level using live view magnification for fine-tuned focus - I really miss the 60D tilt screen.

If the 6D2 is moving upmarket as was famously alleged (perhaps to run along side the 'affordable all-arounder' that is the D750), a tilt-screen seems a very high probability.

If the 6D2 will remain the affordable 'entry' FF rig... I was going to say no tilty-flippy, but I just think it will have it regardless of where it's positioned.

It's a enthusiast/prosumer rig that isn't going to cover warzones or polar expeditions. I think it's getting a tilty-flippy. I very well could be wrong.

- A

I would love a tilty-flippy for the 6D2 too, not an articulating one.

I have said many times in my short career as a random CR poster that the 6D2 will go upmarket according to a rumor last year. I will continue to fantasize about it until I'm told wrong by Canon. And as 6D2 become better, we will have a "8D" to become the new rebel FF camera.

 

[arcer]

Re: EOS 6D Mark II & New DSLR Body in 2017

My prediction for the future Canon DSLR lineup
FF
1DX2 ----- Flagship/ Professional Hardcore camera
<------------- Probable new DSLR named 3D as video DSLR or new title for high-res studio cameras
5DSR ----- Professional/ Studio
5D3/4 ----- Professional/ All rounder
6D2 ----- Prosumer (Upmarket from 6D)
6D ----- Entry
<------------- Probable new DSLR named 8D as new entry level camera or A7S competitor/ low light camera

APS-C
7D2 ----- Professional/ BIF & Sports-orientated (Cropped Flagship)
80D ----- Prosumer
100D ----- Specialized lightweight camera
750D ----- Consumer
1200D ----- Entry

 

[ahsanford]

Re: EOS 6D Mark II & New DSLR Body in 2017

I have said many times in my short career as a random CR poster that the 6D2 will go upmarket according to a rumor last year. I will continue to fantasize about it until I'm told wrong by Canon. And as 6D2 become better, we will have a "8D" to become the new rebel FF camera.

That's the wildcard, isn't it? Is there enough 'feature space' in the FF market to allow all of these to coexist?

8D (or whatever you want to call it): a stripped down 'FF Rebel' with bare bones everything on an EF mount / FF sensor rig -- the 6D going downmarket, as it were. The original 6D sensor, 1/4000 max shutter, no wifi, no gps, completely nerfed video mode, 9 AF points, 3 fps burst, a tiny viewfinder, no wheel on the back, and no top LCD. --> say $1,199.

6D2: The current 6D going upmarket: new sensor, 5-6 fps, give it a pop-up flash, tilty-flippy, wifi/gps, a 'middle' level AF system (20-30 points, neither world-beating nor budget), 1080 video with good options --> say $1,899.

(one could ponder the 6D2 could go even higher upmarket into a $2k-$2500 space with a few critical adds -- a bump to 36 MP, integral 'power zoom' functionality for video, DPAF, etc. if Canon didn't mind threatening 5D4 sales.)

5D4: Start with the current 5D3 but now at 7-9 fps, new sensor, 4K, anti-flicker, DPAF, best low light performance of anything short of the 1DX2, the '1DX2-ish' AF system (same points, but less power/speed like with the 1DX vs. the 5D3) --> $3,499.

5DS: As it stands today (too early for a refresh) --> settling in at a 5D4-similar $3,499 spot

Personally? I think there's more meat on the bone between the 6D and 5D3 today to warrant an additional line between the two if Canon really wanted to flood the market. I still think an 8D (Rebel FF) is not going to work for a host of reasons.

- A

 

[arcer]

Re: EOS 6D Mark II & New DSLR Body in 2017

That's the wildcard, isn't it? Is there enough 'feature space' in the FF market to allow all of these to coexist?

- A

The million dollar question for Canon.

Anyway, I have always dreamed of 6D2 going upmarket, but I'm thinking of it being like the FF 80D while the new camera comparable to the rebels but FF.
Maybe it's to satisfy the Good/Better/Best system

Personally? I think there's more meat on the bone between the 6D and 5D3 today to warrant an additional line between the two if Canon really wanted to flood the market. I still think an 8D (Rebel FF) is not going to work for a host of reasons.

- A

But yeah, I kind of agree with you. It can make it feel cluttered for the customers.

 

[ahsanford]

Re: EOS 6D Mark II & New DSLR Body in 2017

Personally? I think there's more meat on the bone between the 6D and 5D3 today to warrant an additional line between the two if Canon really wanted to flood the market. I still think an 8D (Rebel FF) is not going to work for a host of reasons.

- A

But yeah, I kind of agree with you. It can make it feel cluttered for the customers.

Call me crazy, but I think there needs to be a big cliff between FF and APS-C options/performance to justify and validate someone making that plunge. A budget FF rig (with the cheaper EF zooms I mentioned in my link above) would muddy/soften the FF/APS-C divide to the point that FF loses currency -- you'd see APS-C folks getting better results with L lenses than FF does with a super budget zoom, etc.

The question is: who needs it to be that way more? Canon (to keep prices up on EF gear), or folks who already made the plunge and need to feel good about it?

- A

 

[Loswr]

Re: EOS 6D Mark II & New DSLR Body in 2017

A budget FF rig (with the cheaper EF zooms I mentioned in my link above) would muddy/soften the FF/APS-C divide to the point that FF loses currency -- you'd see APS-C folks getting better results with L lenses than FF does with a super budget zoom, etc.

Converesly, I think the $599 24-105 non-L plus a budget FF rig may sell fairly well bundled together as a kit (effectively knocking $200 or more off the lens price). I suspect that may have been part of Canon's roadmap when developing the lens. Consider...you can get a really good intro APS-C rig (e.g. 80D + 15-85), or for a relatively small premium you can get the budget FF that Canon will market to the masses based on the 'secret sauce' of a FF sensor. Then, Canon can make more as people need a FF UWA, more reach on FF, etc.

 

[j-nord]

Re: EOS 6D Mark II & New DSLR Body in 2017

I'm curious why a 1D body? What about the larger 1D series do you feel is needed/complements a very high m-pix sensor? High m-pix = low fps which means a reduced need for top of the line AF or the special battery to drive the big whites. Could it be a standard 5dIII -ish sized body with additional weather sealing and the firmware features you want? A 1D body is less practical for the landscape crowd.

Back in the day, an integral grip body didn't automatically mean jackhammer fps rates and sideline sports. It was one of two options -- 1D or 1Ds. The 1Ds camp were the studio and landscape folks who would either control lighting in a studio or put it on a tripod in the field.

1D bodies have very very nice features that 5D folks don't get that have nothing to do with sports, AF, framerate, etc. Go here and pan down to 'Canon EOS 1D X Feature Advantages Over the EOS 5D Mark III' and get a slice of what I'm talking about.

For the non-sports/wildlife shooter, I'd say the biggies in the 1D feature set (unrelated to the sensor) are:

• Ethernet for tethering
• Facial recognition
• Better metering, including the coveted spot metering at any AF point
• Built-in viewfinder shutter for long exposures
• Faster sync for flashes
• Built for war; the best sealed rig Canon sells

...but I defer to those folks asking for a high res 1D body. They'll tell you. Those asking for a high MP 1D body are looking forward to more than just a vertical grip.

- A

Didn't answer the question... "Could it be a standard 5dIII -ish sized body with additional weather sealing and the firmware features you want? ". To clarify a little, my question is what is inherent in a 1D sized body that couldn't be squeezed in a 5d3 size body (or probably slightly larger) besides the battery system? Why can't Canon build a slightly larger non-griped body and squeeze in the features you are asking for?

 

[ahsanford]

Re: EOS 6D Mark II & New DSLR Body in 2017

Didn't answer the question... "Could it be a standard 5dIII -ish sized body with additional weather sealing and the firmware features you want? ". To clarify a little, my question is what is inherent in a 1D sized body that couldn't be squeezed in a 5d3 size body (or probably slightly larger) besides the battery system? Why can't Canon build a slightly larger non-griped body and squeeze in the features you are asking for?

Knowledgeable 1D series owners will answer this better than I can, but it depends on the feature:

For fps/throughput, they absolutely can put two chips in a non 1D body -- the 5DS and 7D2 both offer that. It's just a question of cost, battery life, etc. (Consider: the dual chipped 5DS and 7D2 sit around 2/3 of the battery life of the 5D3 with it's solitary chip).

...can they get a full 14 fps in a non-gripped body if they did that? Unlikely that high, one would expect -- a much beefier shutter/mirror setup would need to go in there. But they could move the data and crack 24 MP x 10 fps pretty comfortably, one would think.

For spot metering at any AF point, I do not care about internal architecture and dedicated metering hardware statements -- it's a Canon-dictated intentional nerfing of the 5D line. A Nikon D5500 can do this. A cell phone can do this. Canon just has to relent and find a way to give up the goods here.

For AF speed, tracking efficacy, extra power to big zoom lenses, etc. I was always told that it's a battery power thing. That might be harder to pull off in a non-gripped setup, I'd think.

I'm sure Neuro and the other 1D folks know the sure-they-coulds vs. might-be-able-tos vs. can't-really-be-dones better than I do. I am just speculating.

- A

 

[mitchel456]

Re: EOS 6D Mark II & New DSLR Body in 2017

so tony Northrup was right the 6d ii is not going to be a 2016 camera

 

[ahsanford]

Re: EOS 6D Mark II & New DSLR Body in 2017

so tony Northrup was right the 6d ii is not going to be a 2016 camera

But he also said this:
https://youtu.be/qDvul84wues?t=9m19s

...which he is all but certainly wrong about.

He got two things hilariously wrong in just that one passage I linked: the 5DS is not the sequel to the 5D3 (or it would have been called the 5D4) and the 5D line has never been on a 3 year refresh cycle.

- A

 

[privatebydesign]

Re: EOS 6D Mark II & New DSLR Body in 2017

so tony Northrup was right the 6d ii is not going to be a 2016 camera

If you make as many predictions and statements as he does then statistically some of them must be right.............

 

[ahsanford]

Re: EOS 6D Mark II & New DSLR Body in 2017

The release of the 5Ds created a problem with DSLR naming that Canon fixed with the 1DX.

The 'S' is the only wildcard to me. Had they chosen any other letter -- let's say T for tripod, humor me -- a future state could have been:

1DX2 = i.e. the 2nd model of the 1DX line
1DT = the long long long awaited high res 1D body, a 1Ds Mark IV if you will

5DX = what the 5D4 would be released as instead of 5D4
5DT = what the 5DS is now

But (a) since the 5DS is already out in the wild and (b) the 5D4 seems overwhelmingly likely to be called the 5D4, I agree with Dilbert that the 5DS sticks out in a nutty way now.

- A

 

[rrcphoto]

Re: EOS 6D Mark II & New DSLR Body in 2017

Personally? I think there's more meat on the bone between the 6D and 5D3 today to warrant an additional line between the two if Canon really wanted to flood the market. I still think an 8D (Rebel FF) is not going to work for a host of reasons.

- A

But yeah, I kind of agree with you. It can make it feel cluttered for the customers.

Call me crazy, but I think there needs to be a big cliff between FF and APS-C options/performance to justify and validate someone making that plunge. A budget FF rig (with the cheaper EF zooms I mentioned in my link above) would muddy/soften the FF/APS-C divide to the point that FF loses currency -- you'd see APS-C folks getting better results with L lenses than FF does with a super budget zoom, etc.

The question is: who needs it to be that way more? Canon (to keep prices up on EF gear), or folks who already made the plunge and need to feel good about it?

- A

prosumer market is oversaturated.

there is the 5D, 5Ds, and if the 6D does go upmarket as rumored..

the lineup doesn't need another big DSLR with a top plate LCD,etc,etc,etc

what it needs is something the other way, light small and cheap.

the T5i is similar in size to the A7 II series. why not make a full frame model that covers off the small and light crowd that right now has nothing in canon's eco system.

the 5D line matches up with the 7D crop. the 60-80D line matches up with the 6D .. the rebels have no ff equivalent.

why not? there's certainly cheap FF lenses (the 24-105 non L, the newly mentioned 70-300 IS USM II) and some nice small primes such as the 24,28,35 IS USM and 40mm pancake available.

the rebel ergos remove the top LCD, the command dial on the left hand side, and compact down the size of the camera.

That makes a pretty nice full frame kit actually for consumer grade.

Canon has always competed on economics, this gives them a nice tidy way of doing that again and also compete on size.

canon makes their own sensors - start this battle off on economics. price it just above the T6s. call it the Rebel TXs.

that would be the consummate kit backup body or go light kit with a 24-35mm IS USM prime, or the 40mm pancake.

wouldn't have the words best viewfinder, go penta mirror it needs to be small, but damn, would be hard not to buy it.

also another reason for this. the Rebel series sell VERY well domestically. with uncertainty looming making another economic line versus another 300,000 yen camera body may not be a bad idea.

 

[Loswr]

Re: EOS 6D Mark II & New DSLR Body in 2017

I'm curious why a 1D body? What about the larger 1D series do you feel is needed/complements a very high m-pix sensor? High m-pix = low fps which means a reduced need for top of the line AF or the special battery to drive the big whites. Could it be a standard 5dIII -ish sized body with additional weather sealing and the firmware features you want? A 1D body is less practical for the landscape crowd.

Back in the day, an integral grip body didn't automatically mean jackhammer fps rates and sideline sports. It was one of two options -- 1D or 1Ds. The 1Ds camp were the studio and landscape folks who would either control lighting in a studio or put it on a tripod in the field.

1D bodies have very very nice features that 5D folks don't get that have nothing to do with sports, AF, framerate, etc. Go here and pan down to 'Canon EOS 1D X Feature Advantages Over the EOS 5D Mark III' and get a slice of what I'm talking about.

For the non-sports/wildlife shooter, I'd say the biggies in the 1D feature set (unrelated to the sensor) are:

• Ethernet for tethering
• Facial recognition
• Better metering, including the coveted spot metering at any AF point
• Built-in viewfinder shutter for long exposures
• Faster sync for flashes
• Built for war; the best sealed rig Canon sells

...but I defer to those folks asking for a high res 1D body. They'll tell you. Those asking for a high MP 1D body are looking forward to more than just a vertical grip.

- A

Didn't answer the question... "Could it be a standard 5dIII -ish sized body with additional weather sealing and the firmware features you want? ". To clarify a little, my question is what is inherent in a 1D sized body that couldn't be squeezed in a 5d3 size body (or probably slightly larger) besides the battery system? Why can't Canon build a slightly larger non-griped body and squeeze in the features you are asking for?

I'd have to agree – the larger battery notwithstanding, the technical features could be 'squeezed in'. But just because Canon could do something, it doesn't follow that they will.

However, what can't be 'squeezed in' is ergonomics. Holding a 1-series is (for me, at least) more comfortable in both orientations than a 5-series. The balance with 'typical' lenses (f/2.8 zooms) is much better. Adding a grip is not equivalent, it's less comfortable (because the shape differs to accommodate 1-2 smaller batteries) and there's flex between body and grip that can impact critical work with the grip mounted to a tripod (and that's going to be more true at high MP).

 

[privatebydesign]

Re: EOS 6D Mark II & New DSLR Body in 2017

The release of the 5Ds created a problem with DSLR naming that Canon fixed with the 1DX.

The 'S' is the only wildcard to me. Had they chosen any other letter -- let's say T for tripod, humor me -- a future state could have been:

1DX2 = i.e. the 2nd model of the 1DX line
1DT = the long long long awaited high res 1D body, a 1Ds Mark IV if you will

5DX = what the 5D4 would be released as instead of 5D4
5DT = what the 5DS is now

But (a) since the 5DS is already out in the wild and (b) the 5D4 seems overwhelmingly likely to be called the 5D4, I agree with Dilbert that the 5DS sticks out in a nutty way now.

- A

It's obvious, in Canon's mind the 5DS/R models replaced the 1DS series of cameras, the 'S' is a constant for the target market and there is no confusion for those buyers.

 

[slclick]

Re: EOS 6D Mark II & New DSLR Body in 2017

It will be an APS-H and come with a kit 50mm 1.4 Ring USM with IS and BR coatings. There, what did I miss?

 

[Luds34]

Re: EOS 6D Mark II & New DSLR Body in 2017

1) I don't know how you can strip down a new rig more than the 6D already is stripped down -- it only has 1 AF point after all.

I corrected that for you!

Haha, agreed.