EOS 7D Mark II & Photokina

Re: EOS 7D Mark II & Photokina

x-vision said:
jrista said:
Sure, there is no question there are limits to how small you can shrink pixels with an FSI design.

Yup. That's the clarification that I was after :P.

As far as I am concerned, BRING ON THE 96mp MEGAPIXEL MONSTROSITIES!! MUHAHAHA!!

LOL!

You are laughing but I bet that they are going to do it in 10 (?) years.

Oh, I'm laughing because I KNOW they are going to do it. Some people laugh at the megapixel race, but me, I'm all for it. I want as much resolution and dynamic range as I can get my hands on, particularly for landscapes.
 
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Re: EOS 7D Mark II & Photokina

crashpc said:
If one can see moire in the image, there is not enaugh resolution on sensor, and we are not lens limited yet. Waiting fo 64Mpx APS-C cam. muhahaha...

Actually, if one can see moire in the image, they have an improperly designed AA filter. :P We don't NEED to significantly oversample the lens to avoid moire. We've been avoiding moire for over a decade...the problem today is that manufacturers are removing the AA filters while we are still often UNDERsampling the lens. Moire shouldn't be a problem...the fact that it is, is because photographers and manufacturers are artificially making it a problem by systematically weakening and entirely removing AA filters from cameras that were doing just fine with them before.
 
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Re: EOS 7D Mark II & Photokina

jrista said:
crashpc said:
If one can see moire in the image, there is not enaugh resolution on sensor, and we are not lens limited yet. Waiting fo 64Mpx APS-C cam. muhahaha...

Actually, if one can see moire in the image, they have an improperly designed AA filter. :P We don't NEED to significantly oversample the lens to avoid moire. We've been avoiding moire for over a decade...the problem today is that manufacturers are removing the AA filters while we are still often UNDERsampling the lens. Moire shouldn't be a problem...the fact that it is, is because photographers and manufacturers are artificially making it a problem by systematically weakening and entirely removing AA filters from cameras that were doing just fine with them before.

We have different angle of view on that. I tried to point to a fact that if you see moire, the lens certainly resolves more than sensor itself. That way If we want to up the resolution, increasing sensor resolution still IS the way, as the lens can do that. Of course with some losses, but that´t the deal. Still worth it. If you don´t see moire in the image taken with AAless sensor where it should be, then you´re using your lens resolution potential at its full capabilities, and that´s where we (at least me) we want to go one day. One day nobody will need to be bothered with sensor resolution. It will be absolute compared to lenses we put in front of it, only what will matter will be DR, efficiency, noise supression and stuff. This megapixel fight will move to different aspect.
 
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Re: EOS 7D Mark II & Photokina

crashpc said:
jrista said:
crashpc said:
If one can see moire in the image, there is not enaugh resolution on sensor, and we are not lens limited yet. Waiting fo 64Mpx APS-C cam. muhahaha...

Actually, if one can see moire in the image, they have an improperly designed AA filter. :P We don't NEED to significantly oversample the lens to avoid moire. We've been avoiding moire for over a decade...the problem today is that manufacturers are removing the AA filters while we are still often UNDERsampling the lens. Moire shouldn't be a problem...the fact that it is, is because photographers and manufacturers are artificially making it a problem by systematically weakening and entirely removing AA filters from cameras that were doing just fine with them before.

We have different angle of view on that. I tried to point to a fact that if you see moire, the lens certainly resolves more than sensor itself. That way If we want to up the resolution, increasing sensor resolution still IS the way, as the lens can do that. Of course with some losses, but that´t the deal. Still worth it. If you don´t see moire in the image taken with AAless sensor where it should be, then you´re using your lens resolution potential at its full capabilities, and that´s where we (at least me) we want to go one day. One day nobody will need to be bothered with sensor resolution. It will be absolute compared to lenses we put in front of it, only what will matter will be DR, efficiency, noise supression and stuff. This megapixel fight will move to different aspect.

In that respect, I agree. We DO eventually want to get sensor resolution to the point that it oversamples, eliminating the NEED for AA filters. Were a pretty long way off from that day, though. If lenses like the Otus are any indication, we can push 400lp/mm from an ultra high quality lens at wide apertures. That means we would need pixels around 1.25µm in size to simply MATCH that resolution, let alone oversample it. The theoretical limit on useful minimum pixel size is 0.9µm (900nm, well into the wavelengths of near-IR light!) A full-frame sensor at point nine microns would be a GIGAPIXEL sensor. Assuming were at least at 16-bit ADC by the time such a sensor arrives, we would need in-camera data throughput of over 2.3GB/s just to process one frame per second, and data throughput of approximately 13GB/s to process six frames per second.

That kind of technology is beyond extreme. Relatively few things process data at such incredible speeds...high end, high power GPUs are one of the few that come to mind, along with the level three and lower data caches on a CPU. Those devices require considerable amounts of power to operate.

So, yes, the notion of a sensor that outresolves every lens you can put in front of it is the ideal...it's a very lofty one. I think we may see sensors that outresolve lenses that peak in resolution somewhere between f/4 and f/2.8 at some point, as many current lenses already achieve their optimal near-diffraction-limited resolution somewhere around f/4. Were still talking about sensors with hundreds of megapixels, though, and the data throughput requirements are still rather insane by todays standards.

That's nothing to say of the hardware requirements for the PC's that would be used to process such images, or all the pixel-peepers who would look at their images and freak out because of how "soft" they look (when, ironically, that's the entire point...to OVERsample. :D)
 
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Re: EOS 7D Mark II & Photokina

Yes, I´m pretty aware of that it is not easy to make this work all on the fly today. Also very low sample of users put really extremely good primes on their cams, so as a manufacturer I´d say screw these few. No need to outresolve every lens on this planet. Just average prime as standard 50mm primes and 70-200 glass. This wouldn´t need so much mega or giga pixels. I guess we talk about 64 to 128Mpx for APS-C. Also you´re right about the processing power. That is why and when PC can step in. If you do less processing to the file in your cam, you will manage that data flow with great in-camera buffer (when shooting higher FPS). All this hard work for pixel peepers as I am, can be done in PC lately, where those power hugry graphic cards can take care of highly paralleled computing tasks needed to process your photos. Does it take 150-300Watts of power when it works? Who cares... And if one needs mobility and speed, the in-camera processor will be powerfull enaugh to compress your results to normal (16-32Mpx) image sizes. It´s doable in pretty near feature with slight modesty about ones expectations of speed or handling. It won´t work "just like that" with current tech, but it will work and we can sorry first few shortcomings. Especially Sony is good in throwing new buggy things on the wall and see what sticks :-)
 
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Re: EOS 7D Mark II & Photokina

Canon1 said:
sanj said:
"whatever"! Really? Some facts thrown your way and you disregard it….

Oh... my bad. My observations in the field have been proven wrong (Thanks LeeJay!), and I have revised my "wish list" for a new 7D.

Sanj... I appreciate all the facts that are thrown around here. Just look at the 50+ page thread on the 7D started a few days ago. There are so many facts in there that prove every other fact wrong that nothing could possibly be true.

I'm not disregarding the facts, I'm just stating that my opinions for a great APS-C camera are based on my own field operation. Truthfully, I don't care about the physics. What I care about is generating high quality images and through my own experience, I believe that my "wish list" for a great APS-C camera help create cleaner more usable files at high ISO. I'm not about to debate what makes a pixel produce better noise. If canon can make a 24mp APS-C camera that produces excellent quality, low ISO noise at ISO 3200... I don't care what goes into it. In my experience, this would be a more realistic achievement if that crop sensor was 12 or 16MP.

Whokay! :)
 
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Re: EOS 7D Mark II & Photokina

jrista said:
A full-frame sensor at point nine microns would be a GIGAPIXEL sensor. Assuming were at least at 16-bit ADC by the time such a sensor arrives, we would need in-camera data throughput of over 2.3GB/s just to process one frame per second, and data throughput of approximately 13GB/s to process six frames per second.

That kind of technology is beyond extreme. Relatively few things process data at such incredible speeds...high end, high power GPUs are one of the few that come to mind, along with the level three and lower data caches on a CPU. Those devices require considerable amounts of power to operate.
I'm smiling right now because I am waiting for a test to finish.....
I have a 60Ghz spectrum analyzer in front of me that takes 64 bit readings.... 480GB/s... but no way is it portable or affordable :)
 
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Re: EOS 7D Mark II & Photokina

Don Haines said:
jrista said:
A full-frame sensor at point nine microns would be a GIGAPIXEL sensor. Assuming were at least at 16-bit ADC by the time such a sensor arrives, we would need in-camera data throughput of over 2.3GB/s just to process one frame per second, and data throughput of approximately 13GB/s to process six frames per second.

That kind of technology is beyond extreme. Relatively few things process data at such incredible speeds...high end, high power GPUs are one of the few that come to mind, along with the level three and lower data caches on a CPU. Those devices require considerable amounts of power to operate.
I'm smiling right now because I am waiting for a test to finish.....
I have a 60Ghz spectrum analyzer in front of me that takes 64 bit readings.... 480GB/s... but no way is it portable or affordable :)

Like I said...relatively FEW things process data at such high speeds. CPUs and GPUs were only a couple examples, there are a few other things that can process immense amounts of data per second...but...not many. And, as you stated, your spectrum analyzer is not portable. :P
 
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Re: EOS 7D Mark II & Photokina

jrista said:
Don Haines said:
jrista said:
A full-frame sensor at point nine microns would be a GIGAPIXEL sensor. Assuming were at least at 16-bit ADC by the time such a sensor arrives, we would need in-camera data throughput of over 2.3GB/s just to process one frame per second, and data throughput of approximately 13GB/s to process six frames per second.

That kind of technology is beyond extreme. Relatively few things process data at such incredible speeds...high end, high power GPUs are one of the few that come to mind, along with the level three and lower data caches on a CPU. Those devices require considerable amounts of power to operate.
I'm smiling right now because I am waiting for a test to finish.....
I have a 60Ghz spectrum analyzer in front of me that takes 64 bit readings.... 480GB/s... but no way is it portable or affordable :)

Like I said...relatively FEW things process data at such high speeds. CPUs and GPUs were only a couple examples, there are a few other things that can process immense amounts of data per second...but...not many. And, as you stated, your spectrum analyzer is not portable. :P

RED has designed an ASIC (like DIGIC for Canon) that processes almost 2 gigapixels per second, including wavelet compression of the raw data.
 
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Re: EOS 7D Mark II & Photokina

jrista said:
I want as much resolution and dynamic range as I can get my hands on, particularly for landscapes.

And yet you shoot Canon... ???

Just FYI - initial data suggest the dynamic range of the Nikon D810 at ISO 64 approaches that of the medium format Sony sensor inside the Pentax 645z (amongst others) at ISO 100.
 
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Re: EOS 7D Mark II & Photokina

sarangiman said:
jrista said:
I want as much resolution and dynamic range as I can get my hands on, particularly for landscapes.

And yet you shoot Canon... ???

Just FYI - initial data suggest the dynamic range of the Nikon D810 at ISO 64 approaches that of the medium format Sony sensor inside the Pentax 645z (amongst others) at ISO 100.

Are there any reasons why you wouldn't buy Nikon? Aside from their awesome DR...there are a number of reasons why they are not as good an option as Canon. I've listed them so many times now, I'm not going to again...however, I'm sure your reasons are the same as mine for preferring Canon.

Your statement embodies the core frustration with Canon, though. Why the hell am I shooting Canon when there are other brands with more resolution?

My question is: Why can't I have it all in a single brand? Why does everyone find it so "odd" that someone wants that? :-\
 
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Re: EOS 7D Mark II & Photokina

jrista said:
My question is: Why can't I have it all in a single brand? Why does everyone find it so "odd" that someone wants that?

Wanting it isn't odd. I want free college educations for all my kids. I want a car that gets 200 mpg, seats 8 and has enough power and torque to pull a loaded trailer. I want to visit the International Space Station...next week.

No...wanting isn't odd. But wanting something unrealistic..... ;)

Granted, Canon releasing a high-MP sensor with 13+ stops of DR is probably realistic from a technical standpoint. But technical feasibility isn't the main driver...the market is the driver. To date, the market has been showing them that their sensors "ain't broke" so Canon feels no need to "fix them". Wanting Canon to expend resources in an area their market research shows they don't need to...that's where things start getting less realistic.
 
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Re: EOS 7D Mark II & Photokina

jrista said:
Are there any reasons why you wouldn't buy Nikon? Aside from their awesome DR...

jrista, you seem to be a one topic guy. All the post of you I read are basically the same. If this topic has such an importance for you why don't you do something about it like writing letters to Canon instead of annoying the folks here? Just an idea …
 
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Re: EOS 7D Mark II & Photokina

jrista said:
Are there any reasons why you wouldn't buy Nikon? Aside from their awesome DR...there are a number of reasons why they are not as good an option as Canon. I've listed them so many times now, I'm not going to again...however, I'm sure your reasons are the same as mine for preferring Canon.

Your statement embodies the core frustration with Canon, though. Why the hell am I shooting Canon when there are other brands with more resolution?

My question is: Why can't I have it all in a single brand? Why does everyone find it so "odd" that someone wants that? :-\

We share the same sentiment here. Camera companies are far too slow to innovate and disrupt. Sony is at least trying, at least partially, if not mostly, because they literally *have* to in order to make a dent in the market.

That's at least partially why we can't have everything in one camera.

And I don't know that you can particularly blame them. The market itself looks like it's shrinking. And companies need to do what they need to do to survive. That said, from a consumer perspective, I can't help but be pleased when I see companies innovate for their customer base.

But a bigger reason - IMHO - is b/c they really can't predict all use-cases. And ideas propagate slowly within complex organizations. Which is why, eventually, whoever opens up their cameras and crowd-sources function/app-development will have a huge impact in this regard. I think, anyway.

Are there any reasons why I wouldn't buy Nikon? Not any compelling ones anymore. I guess I'd say:
[list type=decimal]
[*]Lack of non-central cross-type AF points
[*]The wireless flash system w/ the 600EX-RT
[*]That wonderful new Canon 16-35 f/4L IS (I'm sure hoping that Sigma 14-24 rumor is true; I don't like the ergonomics of the Nikon 14-24 that makes practical use of filters impossible)
[/list]

Ultimately, though, those aren't compelling enough to overcome the poor DR, FPN, banding, lower resolution, and utter lack of any reasonable AF tracking capabilities in 3D (meaning, the X-Y 2D plane as well as the depth axis).

And before someone brings up how the DR evens out at high ISO - no it doesn't, not if you shoot in an 'ISO-less' manner where you can maintain somewhere near the full base ISO DR at higher ISOs simply by not allowing your ISO to float (assuming quantization error does not become a factor). But that's far too much to get into here. Incidentally, this type of shooting is exactly what you hounded me for doing when you de-railed that thread years ago where I compared the D800 to the 5DIII. About underexposing 5 stops & then pushing in post. Funny enough - that's exactly what I do right now in certain situations with my A7R in certain high DR scenes where I'm light limited b/c of the shutter speeds and/or aperture I wish to use. And it's likely to be the way cameras work in the future. Again, too much to get into here, but I'm guessing you know exactly what I'm referring to. As I said in my follow-up comment years later on that thread - underexposing 5 stops is nothing for some sensors these days. The only noise cost you pay is a tiny bit of quantization error (that's probably irrelevant) and mostly just the shot noise cost you'd pay anyway if you shot ISO 3200 (5 stops less exposure than ISO 100). Anyway.

Let me address that comment about AF tracking I made above. To be frank: I wish I'd tested Nikon's 3D AF tracking a long time ago. I use it in a bit of an unintuitive way - to avoid the focus issues arising from focus & recompose changing your plane of focus. Instead of moving the AF point using the antiquated joystick/D-pad method (far too slow), I let the camera automatically track the subject I initiate focus on using the center AF point. The only Canon camera that can even attempt this is the 1Dx, and even then it doesn't do it as well (in my tests) as the Nikon D800/D810/D4s - presumably b/c Nikon's been honing this for years. And then I have the added benefit that if the subject does happen to move while I recompose, the camera takes care of that as well. This did wonders for my baby photography, actually. I nailed shots focused on the eye of a wildly moving baby at f/1.4 - something I couldn't have dreamt of doing with my 5D3. Unless I stuck with a static AF point, of course, and manually recomposed to follow the eye/baby around such that the AF point was always over the subject of interest. 3D AF tracking obviates the need for this - allowing you to uncouple focus from the composition.

That's huge, to me.

It literally opens up shooting possibilities for wedding photography that no Canon camera - save for the 1Dx - can even dream to attempt.

And the same hardware that enables this allows for spot-metering all over the frame, and face-detection metering. Again, only the 1Dx can attempt this, but many Nikon cameras do this with either their 2k or 91k pixel RGB sensor. Even the D7000 tracks across the frame surprisingly well, with its limited resolution (2k) RGB sensor. The 91k pixel sensors do it better, but it's admirable that a camera like the D5300 can even do this at all. Compare that to a Rebel that can't even attempt to, and even if it could, it'd be of limited utility with 9 AF points.

I've shot Canon since the film era, including the 5D, 5D2, and 5D3. And I can honestly tell you that for my type of shooting, switching to the Sony A7 series and the D810 has opened up shot opportunities for me that I just couldn't imagine with my Canon cameras.

YMMV.
 
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Re: EOS 7D Mark II & Photokina

Oh, and jrista:

I meant to respond to your comment at some point about how you shoot at ISO 400 and average images to help with Canon DR. Honestly, at first glance I thought it was quite funny, but I did the math and you were on to something there. I'll see if I can write out the actual math to show where that method benefits, and where it doesn't.

But in the meantime, I just wanted to say:

Some people will say that extra DR doesn't help landscape photographers that much b/c the shot noise in the shadows makes shadows look like higher ISO shots. So you should HDR anyway. Ok, valid point; just that with Canon you have this problem *on top of* extra noise due to read noise.

But I'd argue that even in such situations, the higher DR sensor still helps dramatically. Why? B/c you don't actually have to merge different exposures to get HDR. You can just shoot a bunch of the *same* exposures - since almost everything is more likely to be above the incredibly low noise floor - then average them, then post-process to taste. This avoids the issue of masking/HDR software merging different exposures, where dark/bright boundaries can cause issues in the algorithms as to which image to use pixels from. Of course, you may still have to mask for selective brightening/darkening, but this is much easier - to me anyway - than merging different exposures for HDR.

With Canon & this method, you'd be fighting read noise on top of shot noise, requiring you to average many more images. Or increase the exposure to get some of the darkest subjects in your scene above the noise floor to begin with.

Make sense?
 
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Re: EOS 7D Mark II & Photokina

neuroanatomist said:
jrista said:
My question is: Why can't I have it all in a single brand? Why does everyone find it so "odd" that someone wants that?

Wanting it isn't odd. I want free college educations for all my kids. I want a car that gets 200 mpg, seats 8 and has enough power and torque to pull a loaded trailer. I want to visit the International Space Station...next week.

No...wanting isn't odd. But wanting something unrealistic..... ;)

Granted, Canon releasing a high-MP sensor with 13+ stops of DR is probably realistic from a technical standpoint. But technical feasibility isn't the main driver...the market is the driver. To date, the market has been showing them that their sensors "ain't broke" so Canon feels no need to "fix them". Wanting Canon to expend resources in an area their market research shows they don't need to...that's where things start getting less realistic.
I think the truth is somewhere in the middle.

If Canon wanted to, they could plop down a multi-million dollar stack of money and buy a new fabrication line. We know that they have been designing sensors in lab that use finer lithography, and it isn't that hard to move the A/D onto the sensor...

We also know that Canon already has a finer fabrication line that is seeing less demand.

We STRONGLY suspect that the 70D's sensor is made on the finer fabrication line.

We also know that it costs more to run 2 fabrication lines than one....

My bet is that Canon is in the process of moving all sensors over to the finer fabrication line and that in the next year or two we will see an update of all their cameras, and then the 500nM line will be shut down. When transferring the designs over, it is the logical time to shuffle things around to attack the noise problem.

The 7D2 will be a big clue as to if this is happening
 
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Re: EOS 7D Mark II & Photokina

Don's post reminds me: Canon's Dual-Pixel AF is one of the most exciting technologies I've seen recently. If this tech grows and is implemented correctly, it could really revolutionize AF, in my opinion. It could probably do away with AF microadjustment, while increasing precision of wide aperture/shallow-DOF shots. On-sensor PDAF will have to find a way around the low SNR of split photodiodes or masked pixels, but there are some obvious ways around this.

I do hope Canon invests in this tech.
 
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