EOS 7D Mark II
- Thread starter cszy67
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unfocused
Photos/Photo Book Reviews: www.thecuriouseye.com
We will see if my mostly innocuous comments get deleted again!
7DII will be essentially identical to the 5DIII in features and build, except it will have an APS-C sensor. Many will whine and declare that Canon is "ripping us off" because the 5DIII is almost twice as expensive and it's "not fair" that a full frame sensor should cost so much more. Canon will sell millions.
70D will inherit most of the features of the 7D, but retain the 60D build quality. Many will whine because they remain unable to let go of the 40D. Canon will sell millions.
If a full frame entry level camera materializes, it will share build quality with the 60D and have autofocus and other features similar to the 5DII. Many will whine because it's not a 5DIII for half the price. Canon will sell millions.
Although the new APS-C sensor will outperform the last APS-H sensor Canon ever built, THOSE WHO CANNOT BE NAMED will continue to write endless posts about how an APS-H sensor would be so much better and will continue to hold on to the fantasy that APS-H will be resurrected from the dead and walk the earth again. Canon will sell millions (just not APS-H).
7DII will be essentially identical to the 5DIII in features and build, except it will have an APS-C sensor. Many will whine and declare that Canon is "ripping us off" because the 5DIII is almost twice as expensive and it's "not fair" that a full frame sensor should cost so much more. Canon will sell millions.
70D will inherit most of the features of the 7D, but retain the 60D build quality. Many will whine because they remain unable to let go of the 40D. Canon will sell millions.
If a full frame entry level camera materializes, it will share build quality with the 60D and have autofocus and other features similar to the 5DII. Many will whine because it's not a 5DIII for half the price. Canon will sell millions.
Although the new APS-C sensor will outperform the last APS-H sensor Canon ever built, THOSE WHO CANNOT BE NAMED will continue to write endless posts about how an APS-H sensor would be so much better and will continue to hold on to the fantasy that APS-H will be resurrected from the dead and walk the earth again. Canon will sell millions (just not APS-H).
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meh I freely admit to being an APS-H fanboy and take no exception to the term being used to describe me 
I would also go so far as to say that 99% of people that criticise APS-H dont own and have not used 1D bodies with said sensor design and are as such basing their opinions of spec sheets rather than real world experience
other points pretty valid too however thinking a 7DII in 5Dmk3 body is going to be close to under 2k is a bit of wishfull thinking
I also very much doubt the new APS-C sensor is going to go anywhere close to competing with the 1Dmk4 sensor the T4i is a fair indication that this will be the case.
In any case I hope you are correct and all the current 1Dmk4 owners see the error of their ways and buy the 7Dmk ii because they are better on paper and sell them dirt cheap so i can pick one up for a grand to replace my venerable 1Dmk3
I really wanted to like the 7D and came close to replacing my 1Dmk3 with one that was based on spec sheets until i compared them in the real world and decided that the lowly 10MP 1D3 still clearly outperformed the 7D in absolutely every respect from ISO 100 to ISO 3200. It was a pretty sad realisation because i was looking forward to not having the 1D bulk oh well back to dreaming of a gripless APS-H high end body
I would also go so far as to say that 99% of people that criticise APS-H dont own and have not used 1D bodies with said sensor design and are as such basing their opinions of spec sheets rather than real world experience
other points pretty valid too however thinking a 7DII in 5Dmk3 body is going to be close to under 2k is a bit of wishfull thinking
I also very much doubt the new APS-C sensor is going to go anywhere close to competing with the 1Dmk4 sensor the T4i is a fair indication that this will be the case.
In any case I hope you are correct and all the current 1Dmk4 owners see the error of their ways and buy the 7Dmk ii because they are better on paper and sell them dirt cheap so i can pick one up for a grand to replace my venerable 1Dmk3
I really wanted to like the 7D and came close to replacing my 1Dmk3 with one that was based on spec sheets until i compared them in the real world and decided that the lowly 10MP 1D3 still clearly outperformed the 7D in absolutely every respect from ISO 100 to ISO 3200. It was a pretty sad realisation because i was looking forward to not having the 1D bulk oh well back to dreaming of a gripless APS-H high end body
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unfocused
Photos/Photo Book Reviews: www.thecuriouseye.com
We are all fanboys or fangirls here (although I suspect there are far more boys than girls, unfortunately). Some are just honest about it.
Don't misunderstand. I think the 1D IV is a fantastic camera, if a bit out of my price range. But, acknowledging a camera to be great is different from misreading the many signals from the manufacturer about the future of the format.
I may be overly optimistic about the pricing and/or features of a 7DII. But, there is some logic behind my optimism. In a nutshell, it must appeal to a market that is much more price sensitive than the 5DIII. Because the market is mature now, it must also attract current 7D owners like myself if it is to succeed. I base much of my speculation on what I believe it would take to convince me and other current 7D users to upgrade.
I commend Canon for targeting the 5DIII to a specific professional market (wedding and event photographers) and for doing sufficient market research to know that the $500 premium would be worth it to these professionals for the superior ISO and noise performance. (As an aside, the D800 seems either not particularly well-targeted, or is targeted toward a much smaller universe)
Yes, I do expect to see some improvement with the next generation of APS-C sensor. The T4i is not a new generation, but appears to rather be the same generation as existing APS-C sensors with continuous autofocus laid on top. To me, the more interesting speculation is whether the 70D will receive the same sensor as the 7DII or if it will also receive the T4i sensor.
Perhaps I am just ignorant, but I do always wonder when people proclaim the virtues of larger sensors, just what they are seeing that I am missing. I have made prints up to 18 x 27 and even with my nose inches away from the print there is no visible grain or noise. People complain about issues that I have never had a problem with (banding for example). I've read numerous posts from successful photographers who readily acknowledge that neither they nor their colleagues can identify differences between sensors in a final print.
I understand and respect the opinions of those who prefer the bokeh of a larger sensor. But, that is a question of style, not of quality.
Just what is it that is so troublesome for some photographers that they feel they cannot get a good product out of an APS-C sensor?
Don't misunderstand. I think the 1D IV is a fantastic camera, if a bit out of my price range. But, acknowledging a camera to be great is different from misreading the many signals from the manufacturer about the future of the format.
I may be overly optimistic about the pricing and/or features of a 7DII. But, there is some logic behind my optimism. In a nutshell, it must appeal to a market that is much more price sensitive than the 5DIII. Because the market is mature now, it must also attract current 7D owners like myself if it is to succeed. I base much of my speculation on what I believe it would take to convince me and other current 7D users to upgrade.
I commend Canon for targeting the 5DIII to a specific professional market (wedding and event photographers) and for doing sufficient market research to know that the $500 premium would be worth it to these professionals for the superior ISO and noise performance. (As an aside, the D800 seems either not particularly well-targeted, or is targeted toward a much smaller universe)
Yes, I do expect to see some improvement with the next generation of APS-C sensor. The T4i is not a new generation, but appears to rather be the same generation as existing APS-C sensors with continuous autofocus laid on top. To me, the more interesting speculation is whether the 70D will receive the same sensor as the 7DII or if it will also receive the T4i sensor.
Perhaps I am just ignorant, but I do always wonder when people proclaim the virtues of larger sensors, just what they are seeing that I am missing. I have made prints up to 18 x 27 and even with my nose inches away from the print there is no visible grain or noise. People complain about issues that I have never had a problem with (banding for example). I've read numerous posts from successful photographers who readily acknowledge that neither they nor their colleagues can identify differences between sensors in a final print.
I understand and respect the opinions of those who prefer the bokeh of a larger sensor. But, that is a question of style, not of quality.
Just what is it that is so troublesome for some photographers that they feel they cannot get a good product out of an APS-C sensor?
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people often view the APS-H sensor as a compromise designed to overcome limitations to full frame based on older slower processing tech, that may have been a large part of its origin
however rather than being a compromise it actually creates a few unique advantages especially when coupled with particular canon lenses
1) The image quality is alot closer to full frame than to crop, its cleaner, sharper basically better all round
the 18MP APS-C sensors have a "fuzziness" about them that the larger sensors dont. they are not bad necessarily however for my personal choice I dont feel they are in the same league as the bigger sensors
And dare I say it they are not as good as the 1.5 Crop sensors from nikon either
2) You still get the lens sweet spot effect, soft corners are gone, lens vignetting gone yep crop has this too and to an even greater degree but the 1.3 crop has a wonderfull balance of IQ and lens benefits
3) a 1.3 teleconverter with no loss of aperture light or image quality
4) the 1.3 crop coupled with the 16-35 f2.8L II make the best walkaround lens on a 1.6 crop the 16-35 is a bit tight for my taste however it gives effectively 21mm to 46mm corner to corner sharp wide open, internally zooming weather sealed with filter not too long not too heavy if the body wasnt to massive on the 1D series it would be the most killer street combo. If you want to see what I mean I suggest hiring a 1D4 and this lens for a day and go shooting. its better than the 24-70 mk1 on full frame however with the MTF on the mk 2 this advantage may be largely a thing of the past. its all down to taste but i really like 20 to 21mm on the wide end and with it hitting up to 46mm its still very usable for portraits
the only 2 advantages APS-C have over APS-H is a bit more reach however APS-H equipped cameras have f8 Autofocus and the APS-C cameras are cheaper / smaller (although i see smaller a disadvantage i find rebels too tiny the 5D size is ideal IMO)
while theres some decent EF-S glass its not better than the corresponding L glass and since it sells for high prices on the used market i dont really see the drama with EF-S compatability when superior L glass on an APS-H camera will out perform the best EF-S on any 1.6 crop just sell and go L
there you go thats all probably worth a good few smites
however rather than being a compromise it actually creates a few unique advantages especially when coupled with particular canon lenses
1) The image quality is alot closer to full frame than to crop, its cleaner, sharper basically better all round
the 18MP APS-C sensors have a "fuzziness" about them that the larger sensors dont. they are not bad necessarily however for my personal choice I dont feel they are in the same league as the bigger sensors
And dare I say it they are not as good as the 1.5 Crop sensors from nikon either
2) You still get the lens sweet spot effect, soft corners are gone, lens vignetting gone yep crop has this too and to an even greater degree but the 1.3 crop has a wonderfull balance of IQ and lens benefits
3) a 1.3 teleconverter with no loss of aperture light or image quality
4) the 1.3 crop coupled with the 16-35 f2.8L II make the best walkaround lens on a 1.6 crop the 16-35 is a bit tight for my taste however it gives effectively 21mm to 46mm corner to corner sharp wide open, internally zooming weather sealed with filter not too long not too heavy if the body wasnt to massive on the 1D series it would be the most killer street combo. If you want to see what I mean I suggest hiring a 1D4 and this lens for a day and go shooting. its better than the 24-70 mk1 on full frame however with the MTF on the mk 2 this advantage may be largely a thing of the past. its all down to taste but i really like 20 to 21mm on the wide end and with it hitting up to 46mm its still very usable for portraits
the only 2 advantages APS-C have over APS-H is a bit more reach however APS-H equipped cameras have f8 Autofocus and the APS-C cameras are cheaper / smaller (although i see smaller a disadvantage i find rebels too tiny the 5D size is ideal IMO)
while theres some decent EF-S glass its not better than the corresponding L glass and since it sells for high prices on the used market i dont really see the drama with EF-S compatability when superior L glass on an APS-H camera will out perform the best EF-S on any 1.6 crop just sell and go L
there you go thats all probably worth a good few smites
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J
jueming23
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pwp said:
then how much is it? the same as 7D?i hope it be cheaper than 7D.there are so many cheap ff DSLR rumors,i don't think the price of a aps-c DSLR should be higher than 1500.i like 7D,it's awesome,but i think there is no necessary to update it.let's welcome FF generation.
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With new firmware coming out for the 7D in August that adds a number of features and performance enhancements, it is unlikely that a 7DII is coming any time soon.
Canon wouldn't release a significant firmware update for a camera it was replacing in the very near future.
Canon wouldn't release a significant firmware update for a camera it was replacing in the very near future.
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L
lonebear
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Personally, I am a fanboy of APS-H too. One rumor indicated 7D will have no successor, which might imply some big changes in 7D series. No format changes in the same series? 1Ds & 1D were precedent. Of course, it's just my personal reading of the rumors. By September, probably everything will become clear, and I won't be surprised if 7D Yeti comes into existence.
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As I understand it, the introduction of the APS-H was largely a business decision used to maximize profit and had nothing to do with addressing the needs of the consumer. It was a solution looking for a problem.
Let's be honest, no one else offers anything in that particular size. Canon made a business decision, attempted to be "first to market", the market responded with a "meh," and now there is the odd-ball APS-H sensor that really has no place.
I imagine the owners of APS-H rigs feel quite differently but the truth is the truth.
Let's be honest, no one else offers anything in that particular size. Canon made a business decision, attempted to be "first to market", the market responded with a "meh," and now there is the odd-ball APS-H sensor that really has no place.
I imagine the owners of APS-H rigs feel quite differently but the truth is the truth.
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M
MYB
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Hi to CR Forum with my first comment,
I think Canon needs a compact APS-H ( 5D body ) whatever it calls 7DII or something else. Bigger sensor gives better IQ and still have a bit reach for outdoor and if Canon keeps the f/8 AF advantage for using teleconverter, it satisfies a lot people.
Yes we can't use EF-S lenses on APS-H ( and comes out an ultra wide angle problem ) but it's Canons problem not mine. I can buy a Sigma DC or Tamron Di II. These lenses are causes only a bit vignette at the corners. But it's not bad at all. And if you don't want it you can crop the photo ( to 1.5, 1.6 ) when you will use it.
For example, if Canon makes a 22 MP APS-H and i have a Sigma 10-20mm DC. When i crop it to 1.5 still i have a 15mm 16MP photo. I think 16MP is enough for most of people. Maybe Canon makes a crop mode.
Of course i'm not a professional and these are my opinions.
(I am not good at English. If i said something wrong, apologies).
I think Canon needs a compact APS-H ( 5D body ) whatever it calls 7DII or something else. Bigger sensor gives better IQ and still have a bit reach for outdoor and if Canon keeps the f/8 AF advantage for using teleconverter, it satisfies a lot people.
Yes we can't use EF-S lenses on APS-H ( and comes out an ultra wide angle problem ) but it's Canons problem not mine. I can buy a Sigma DC or Tamron Di II. These lenses are causes only a bit vignette at the corners. But it's not bad at all. And if you don't want it you can crop the photo ( to 1.5, 1.6 ) when you will use it.
For example, if Canon makes a 22 MP APS-H and i have a Sigma 10-20mm DC. When i crop it to 1.5 still i have a 15mm 16MP photo. I think 16MP is enough for most of people. Maybe Canon makes a crop mode.
Of course i'm not a professional and these are my opinions.
(I am not good at English. If i said something wrong, apologies).
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B
briansquibb
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cszy67 said:
I am curious why you think that is the truth?
1. The APS-H was a very efficient size from a production point of view
2. No other manufactuer produces a 1.6 crop APS-C
3. Leica produce a APS-H - the M8
4. Like all businesses, they are all always looking to maximise profit, as are Nikon, Sony, Panasonic et all
5. APS-H was never intended as a consumer product, always for the pro shooters, and right from day 1
6. Kodak first introduced the APS-H, not Canon
The truth is the truth, Jim, but not quite as you see it 8) 8) 8)
I see no reason at all why Canon should not produce something different. Elsewhere it would be called inovation, on this forum it seems to meet with disapproval.
As far as I am concerned the APS-H has a very good pedigree - far better than the APS-C. Why not replace APS-C with something better and let APS-C be in the P&S and mirorless? - that way Canon only have 2 sensor sizes, both capable of producing first class IQ
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cszy67 said:
Damn I dont think all the sports shooters and associated press photographers got that memo, you better go let them know they should be shooting rebels instead :
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