Ergonomics... Why you pay more for a 1D...

[clicstudio]

The original post on this thread is extremely valid - ergonomics is extremely important (why I personally choose Canon over Nikon).

I shoot with the 7D + grip and yesterday I tried a 5D2 without (even though it is slightly wider), the 7D feels more natural to hold, especially with one hand when not in use.

Seeing as new DSLR prices are so high, particularly the new accessories such as the BG-11 grip for the 5D3, why don't canon offer both 'tall' body (integrated grip) and 'regular' body options on all xD cameras? Obviously they could charge a premium, say +$500 for a tall 5D3, over a regular short body. After all, the interior tech is the same, just more magnesium alloy + weather seals. It would also kill off 3rd party 'knock-off' grip vendors.

I thought the same... The brains can stay the same. Just add the extension... I would consider a 5D III as a backup camera if that was the case...
Cheers

 

[clicstudio]

I am not judging the camera, just the grip. The camera is by far the best on the market, for now, but the ergonomics are part of the daily use. If you shot 1000 photos a day, like I do, you would understand. Amateurs won't see it anyway...
My apologies for my sarcasm...

What makes you think an amateur wont see it anyway? Why the put down of the amateur by a pro - the difference between a pro and an amateur is that the amateur does it for fun, the pro for money. Bad ergonomics would stop it being fun.

I shoot mostly in portrait and the ergonomics of the 1D are key to me.

I shoot girls only. 90% of the time I shoot portrait. Try shooting portrait with a grip-less camera and you will get carpal tunnel in 5 minutes. Not to mention, without a grip, the whole weight of the camera is resting on your bent wrist, like a crane. Position of your wrist is very important. A relaxed wrist will let you work better and longer...
The grip gives you more natural support and a better, well, "grip" on the camera...
:

 

[clicstudio]

I am not judging the camera, just the grip. The camera is by far the best on the market, for now, but the ergonomics are part of the daily use. If you shot 1000 photos a day, like I do, you would understand. Amateurs won't see it anyway...
My apologies for my sarcasm...

What makes you think an amateur wont see it anyway? Why the put down of the amateur by a pro - the difference between a pro and an amateur is that the amateur does it for fun, the pro for money. Bad ergonomics would stop it being fun.

I shoot mostly in portrait and the ergonomics of the 1D are key to me.

Also, just because a pro gets paid, that doesn't automatically make them good.

Look at my website... I assure you nobody has more fun shooting than I do... And I get paid too...

 

[clicstudio]

...I am a professional photographer and I expect something professional...
...it has flaws that I can touch and feel as a professional photographer who, maybe, is used to expecting more...
...I am just sharing my opinion as a 12 year professional...

To seemingly assume - in a camera forum of all places - that you're the only one here who has used a camera in a professional context is incredibly naive.

I've been using Canon EOS bodies continuously since the mid-90s (starting with the EOS 500), and I've never felt like any one of them has had bad ergonomics. It always take time to adjust to the feel of a new body, but really it's not that difficult (and it's advantageous to be flexible as a professional). For a creature of habit like yourself, the fact that the 1-series cameras haven't changed much in button placement over the years mean that it's the perfect solution for YOU. It's all about muscle memory. But obviously the built-in grip of the 1D cameras is going to be better than the bolt-on type, as I said in my earlier post - not just for ergonomics, but for build quality and weather proofing as well.

I have absolutely no doubt that you will LOVE your 1DX. I love the 1-series bodies - in fact I could have bought any of the currently available 1Ds instead of the 5D3 - but I'm very satisfied with my decision. There are just some places you can't go with a giant camera body unless you have a press pass...

I don't have a press pass... I shoot 70% at the studio and 30% outdoors. And 90% of the time I shoot in portrait.
Like I said before, try shooting portrait for 3 hours straight with ANY grip-less camera... Your bent wrist, your arm over the camera, your strained fingers and no support from your body... Come on! Whoever says a grip is not necessary doesn't shoot enough or doesn't want to admit it... Try putting a Canon 600 EX-RT on a grip less camera... There is NO WAY you can hold the weight of the camera without hurting yourself... Even a 70-200 2.8. Hand Held Cameras simply don't have enough support without the grip... And that is a fact...
I am not criticizing the 5D... Like I said before, it's the best camera in the market (until the 1DX comes out, of course ) Just pointing out the bad ergonomics of the buttons on the grip, ONLY, on the grip.

 

[clicstudio]

I don't know about anyone else, but I'm still trying to figure out the POINT of the OP's post here? Looking for a reaction, what? I'm lost.

Not looking for a reaction. Just trying to show how even Canon can make mistakes. Ergonomics are as important in a camera as its photographic qualities.

 

[clicstudio]

Doing sports/action based photography, I can't see how anyone could manage to lug around a huge 1-series plus its lens all day without having serious back problems. I gave up the 1DII for the 7D, never looked back... The grip comes in handy sometimes, but usually it just makes the damn thing too big.

Hmmm, maybe. I guess all those Canon shooters at elite sports events shooting with Mk4 & Mk3 bodies must be missing something. Expect 7D sales to surge.

PW

Right on!

 

[clicstudio]

You're trying to make it sound like you wrote your initial post to assist everyone, but I'm afraid that your tone made it come across like you were gloating at everyone who can't afford a 1D X... Rather than act defensive now, I'd suggest that you are a little bit more careful not to cause unnecessary offense in future.

Horses for courses. I found the OP interesting and value the trouble he went to to overlay the controls of the 5D3 & the 1DX to illustrate his points. It was a well presented description coming out of direct experience.

If it's pushing buttons for you, try sidestepping the emotion for a moment and see that he's offering a personal viewpoint that is 100% valid for him and plenty of others, but just may not mesh with everyone's position. And that's OK!

PW

Thank you PW. Finally someone sees my point. I spent time putting the "presentation" together. I don't even own a 5D III. It started with my friend complaining the joystick was off too low. I picked it up and instantly felt he was right...
People are getting defensive thinking I am bashing the 5D. I am just complaining that Canon is making design mistakes.

 

[Loswr]

I am just complaining that Canon is making design mistakes.

Thing is, ergonomics are in the hands of the holder, and hands differ. Your very nice composite image shows that the joystick position on the 1D X lies at the junction of the 5DIII and the grip, clearly a problematic place for Canon to locate it on the BG-E11.

Personally, I'm also waiting for my preordered 1D X - and ergonomics (including the integrated grip) are one reason I chose that over a gripped 5DIII.

 

[bdunbar79]

I don't know about anyone else, but I'm still trying to figure out the POINT of the OP's post here? Looking for a reaction, what? I'm lost.

Not looking for a reaction. Just trying to show how even Canon can make mistakes. Ergonomics are as important in a camera as its photographic qualities.

Right. I'm with you on the 1D bodies. But I just don't know that anyone was saying that Canon didn't make mistakes.

 

[DarkKnightNine]

I think it's going too far to say that the 5D has "bad ergonomics". I find it immensely comfortable to use, with the only 'why did they do that' button placement being the playback zoom buttons. Yes, perhaps the 1Ds have better ergonomics - and I certainly prefer the integrated grip look rather than the 'bolt-on' type - but mostly it seems like you have particular preferences that are determined by the size of your hands or simply habit.

No, I am not going too far. I am a professional photographer and I expect something professional or at least pro-sumer like a 5D to be better...
There is always a pyramid of quality in most products. Be it cameras, electronics, cars, etc...
The 1D's are the flagships. I can't expect a $3500 camera to look and feel as one that costs double but at least, the designers should take the time to position the buttons correctly. It doesn't cost them anything.
There are plenty of design flaws in most products in the market. I am not saying the 5D is a bad camera, just saying it has flaws that I can touch and feel as a professional photographer who, maybe, is used to expecting more...
It seems all of you 5D users fail to see the reality and can't accept the truth.
I rented a 5D III for a whole week without a grip to see if I liked it. I was extremely happy with the quality of the camera... Build, photo quality, noise levels, focusing speed, screen... The best camera in the market so far, but this grip is just not right... It took me 5 seconds to realize there is something wrong with it.
I am just sharing my opinion as a 12 year professional...
If you guys don't want to see it, it's not my problem cause I will never own a 5D III...
Cheers

P

I would have to agree with the OP that the ergonomics of the 5D Mark III pail in comparison to a 1D Series body even with the battery grip. But like him, it is a matter of our professional opinion. No need to attack him or be sarcastic. You actually might learn something if you aren't caught up in the 5D Mk III love affair. EVERY electronic gear has it's flaws and the people who follow companies like Canon and Apple want to attack professional users for pointing out those flaws instead of having an open mind about the possibility that they might exist. That kind of blind worship doesn't help the company engineer better products and in the end, it doesn't help you as the end user either because the company feels confident they can ship just about anything and make a profit (flaws included).


I'm using the 5D Mark III everyday in my studio until the 1DX is finally released, but is has been a love/hate relationship and I really do miss the ergonomics of my 1D Mark IV. For me (and the OP) the buttons of a 1D series just feel like they are in a better position.

 

[DarkKnightNine]

You're trying to make it sound like you wrote your initial post to assist everyone, but I'm afraid that your tone made it come across like you were gloating at everyone who can't afford a 1D X... Rather than act defensive now, I'd suggest that you are a little bit more careful not to cause unnecessary offense in future.

Horses for courses. I found the OP interesting and value the trouble he went to to overlay the controls of the 5D3 & the 1DX to illustrate his points. It was a well presented description coming out of direct experience.

If it's pushing buttons for you, try sidestepping the emotion for a moment and see that he's offering a personal viewpoint that is 100% valid for him and plenty of others, but just may not mesh with everyone's position. And that's OK!

PW

Exactly. Why do people in this forum feel a need to attack each other personally? I almost quit coming here all together because that assinine attitude. The guy went through a lot of trouble to illustrate his point and whether you agree with his opinion or not, at least have some courtesy. Another thing I want to point out is that people are always trying to read emotions into each other's posts. I was called arrogant once by another poster because I had some doubts and questions about my 5D Mark III purchase. It was really silly because if he'd ever met me, he would know that I'm really a nice guy. Besides an arrogant person doesn't come to forums looking for answers, because he/she already think they know-it-all. lol


I'm just encouraging you guys to be respectful and not read anything extra into posts. We can have intelligent conversation, learn from each other, and disagree without being offensive as that's what forums are for.
Thanks (MHO)

 

[Razor2012]

I think it's going too far to say that the 5D has "bad ergonomics". I find it immensely comfortable to use, with the only 'why did they do that' button placement being the playback zoom buttons. Yes, perhaps the 1Ds have better ergonomics - and I certainly prefer the integrated grip look rather than the 'bolt-on' type - but mostly it seems like you have particular preferences that are determined by the size of your hands or simply habit.

No, I am not going too far. I am a professional photographer and I expect something professional or at least pro-sumer like a 5D to be better...
There is always a pyramid of quality in most products. Be it cameras, electronics, cars, etc...
The 1D's are the flagships. I can't expect a $3500 camera to look and feel as one that costs double but at least, the designers should take the time to position the buttons correctly. It doesn't cost them anything.
There are plenty of design flaws in most products in the market. I am not saying the 5D is a bad camera, just saying it has flaws that I can touch and feel as a professional photographer who, maybe, is used to expecting more...
It seems all of you 5D users fail to see the reality and can't accept the truth.
I rented a 5D III for a whole week without a grip to see if I liked it. I was extremely happy with the quality of the camera... Build, photo quality, noise levels, focusing speed, screen... The best camera in the market so far, but this grip is just not right... It took me 5 seconds to realize there is something wrong with it.
I am just sharing my opinion as a 12 year professional...
If you guys don't want to see it, it's not my problem cause I will never own a 5D III...
Cheers

P

I would have to agree with the OP that the ergonomics of the 5D Mark III pail in comparison to a 1D Series body even with the battery grip. But like him, it is a matter of our professional opinion. No need to attack him or be sarcastic. You actually might learn something if you aren't caught up in the 5D Mk III love affair. EVERY electronic gear has it's flaws and the people who follow companies like Canon and Apple want to attack professional users for pointing out those flaws instead of having an open mind about the possibility that they might exist. That kind of blind worship doesn't help the company engineer better products and in the end, it doesn't help you as the end user either because the company feels confident they can ship just about anything and make a profit (flaws included).


I'm using the 5D Mark III everyday in my studio until the 1DX is finally released, but is has been a love/hate relationship and I really do miss the ergonomics of my 1D Mark IV. For me (and the OP) the buttons of a 1D series just feel like they are in a better position.

First of all why are you guys even getting worked up over the ergonomics between the 1 series and the 5 series? Two different bodies. So just because the buttons aren't in the same position, right away it becomes a flawed camera? You can't expect them to be the same, it's not physically possible when you are adding a grip. Really, what's there to see? It's obvious that they are two different cameras, both internally and externally. If the OP had come out and said, hey guys I've used the 5DIII and the button layout is a bit off for me, that's one thing. But to say "Well, u get what u pay for... A limited camera with bad ergonomics... ", what do you expect for a reaction?

 

[Razor2012]

You're trying to make it sound like you wrote your initial post to assist everyone, but I'm afraid that your tone made it come across like you were gloating at everyone who can't afford a 1D X... Rather than act defensive now, I'd suggest that you are a little bit more careful not to cause unnecessary offense in future.

Horses for courses. I found the OP interesting and value the trouble he went to to overlay the controls of the 5D3 & the 1DX to illustrate his points. It was a well presented description coming out of direct experience.

If it's pushing buttons for you, try sidestepping the emotion for a moment and see that he's offering a personal viewpoint that is 100% valid for him and plenty of others, but just may not mesh with everyone's position. And that's OK!

PW

Exactly. Why do people in this forum feel a need to attack each other personally? I almost quit coming here all together because that assinine attitude. The guy went through a lot of trouble to illustrate his point and whether you agree with his opinion or not, at least have some courtesy. Another thing I want to point out is that people are always trying to read emotions into each other's posts. I was called arrogant once by another poster because I had some doubts and questions about my 5D Mark III purchase. It was really silly because if he'd ever met me, he would know that I'm really a nice guy. Besides an arrogant person doesn't come to forums looking for answers, because he/she already think they know-it-all. lol


I'm just encouraging you guys to be respectful and not read anything extra into posts. We can have intelligent conversation, learn from each other, and disagree without being offensive as that's what forums are for.
Thanks (MHO)

Maybe we need to learn how to express ourselves properly. Then I think there would be alot less fighting.

 

[gary]

I'm somewhat surprised that no mention is made to the variance in the sizes of hands and fingers which will obviously have a considerable effect on how easy a camera is to manage. I am not a professional with a 5d111 and with a larger lens find it difficult to manage so will buy a grip to balance the weight better. The balance in the hand with a smaller lens I find fine and the buttons I find accessible. My daughter who is a professional photographer has hands and fingers that are considerably smaller than mine and finds the buttons awkward. I suspect Canon will never be able to please everyone completely, due to our differences, they are forced to place the buttons somewhere. As I mentioned on another thread it would have been helpful if all the buttons were programable and this may have helped users.

 

[briansquibb]

I'm somewhat surprised that no mention is made to the variance in the sizes of hands and fingers which will obviously have a considerable effect on how easy a camera is to manage. I am not a professional with a 5d111 and with a larger lens find it difficult to manage so will buy a grip to balance the weight better. The balance in the hand with a smaller lens I find fine and the buttons I find accessible. My daughter who is a professional photographer has hands and fingers that are considerably smaller than mine and finds the buttons awkward. I suspect Canon will never be able to please everyone completely, due to our differences, they are forced to place the buttons somewhere. As I mentioned on another thread it would have been helpful if all the buttons were programable and this may have helped users.

Different hand sizes are a major point with camera bodies. My hands are very much on the large end of the scale (nearly 10-1/2 inch span) so my 7D feels tiny, even the 1 series is not very large for me - so it will clearly be that what fits me wont fit others. Same applies to weight of camera + lens.

 

[JEAraman]

My very first Canon was a 10D with a grip in 2002... But I've been using exclusively 1D's since 2003.
And I couldn't go back to anything less...
My friend has a 5D. I love the quality but found the camera to be too small without a grip. He just received the BG-11E grip. After playing with it for a while I found the position of the buttons to be too uncomfortable and the ergonomics badly designed.
At first, you notice how flat the bottom of the grip is, it doesn't hug your hand, it is rough. The AF ON, * and grid buttons are too high and the joystick is too low. Keeping your index finger on the shutter and moving the joystick is very uncomfortable, the joystick is too low and you need to spread your fingers too much, therefore losing grip on the camera... Very bad.
Using the camera on landscape mode, you realize the vertical version is totally off. In landscape, your thumb rests properly on a rubberized groove and the joystick is in the right position. The joystick is 1/2" inch lower on the grip compared to the camera. Meaning you have to "search" for it with your thumb to find it. It seems like a problem getting used to the different layout while shooting fast and switching from landscape to portrait... My friend is already aggravated and disappointed... I would be too...
Here is a layout comparison between a 1D X and a 5D III... The 5D is red, 1D is green.
Notice the thumb grooves and how low and awkward the 5D joystick is.
People think the 1D's are not worth the extra money... Hey, u get a 5D and get Digic 5, the same FF sensor, u get 4 extra MP, a BG-11E and still pay $3000 less than a 1D X... Well, u get what u pay for... A limited camera with bad ergonomics...
I can't wait for my new 1D X....

I admit, the OP's post did appear boastful, but the point that the 5d3 + Grip isn't ver ergonomic is valid.. I wonder why Canon didn't make the button layouts similar. I mean they DID give the 5d3 so many of the 1DX features...why stop at the button layout.. Same way the OP layered the pics... I'm sure the designers at Canon could have easily worked something out.

 

[Razor2012]

My very first Canon was a 10D with a grip in 2002... But I've been using exclusively 1D's since 2003.
And I couldn't go back to anything less...
My friend has a 5D. I love the quality but found the camera to be too small without a grip. He just received the BG-11E grip. After playing with it for a while I found the position of the buttons to be too uncomfortable and the ergonomics badly designed.
At first, you notice how flat the bottom of the grip is, it doesn't hug your hand, it is rough. The AF ON, * and grid buttons are too high and the joystick is too low. Keeping your index finger on the shutter and moving the joystick is very uncomfortable, the joystick is too low and you need to spread your fingers too much, therefore losing grip on the camera... Very bad.
Using the camera on landscape mode, you realize the vertical version is totally off. In landscape, your thumb rests properly on a rubberized groove and the joystick is in the right position. The joystick is 1/2" inch lower on the grip compared to the camera. Meaning you have to "search" for it with your thumb to find it. It seems like a problem getting used to the different layout while shooting fast and switching from landscape to portrait... My friend is already aggravated and disappointed... I would be too...
Here is a layout comparison between a 1D X and a 5D III... The 5D is red, 1D is green.
Notice the thumb grooves and how low and awkward the 5D joystick is.
People think the 1D's are not worth the extra money... Hey, u get a 5D and get Digic 5, the same FF sensor, u get 4 extra MP, a BG-11E and still pay $3000 less than a 1D X... Well, u get what u pay for... A limited camera with bad ergonomics...
I can't wait for my new 1D X....

I admit, the OP's post did appear boastful, but the point that the 5d3 + Grip isn't ver ergonomic is valid.. I wonder why Canon didn't make the button layouts similar. I mean they DID give the 5d3 so many of the 1DX features...why stop at the button layout.. Same way the OP layered the pics... I'm sure the designers at Canon could have easily worked something out.

Looking at those OP's overlays, a person can see that it's physically impossible to duplicate the button layout on the 5DIII body, especially when adding a grip. So with this rationale, I should be bashing the 60D for not having the same layout as the 5DIII?

 

[JEAraman]

My very first Canon was a 10D with a grip in 2002... But I've been using exclusively 1D's since 2003.
And I couldn't go back to anything less...
My friend has a 5D. I love the quality but found the camera to be too small without a grip. He just received the BG-11E grip. After playing with it for a while I found the position of the buttons to be too uncomfortable and the ergonomics badly designed.
At first, you notice how flat the bottom of the grip is, it doesn't hug your hand, it is rough. The AF ON, * and grid buttons are too high and the joystick is too low. Keeping your index finger on the shutter and moving the joystick is very uncomfortable, the joystick is too low and you need to spread your fingers too much, therefore losing grip on the camera... Very bad.
Using the camera on landscape mode, you realize the vertical version is totally off. In landscape, your thumb rests properly on a rubberized groove and the joystick is in the right position. The joystick is 1/2" inch lower on the grip compared to the camera. Meaning you have to "search" for it with your thumb to find it. It seems like a problem getting used to the different layout while shooting fast and switching from landscape to portrait... My friend is already aggravated and disappointed... I would be too...
Here is a layout comparison between a 1D X and a 5D III... The 5D is red, 1D is green.
Notice the thumb grooves and how low and awkward the 5D joystick is.
People think the 1D's are not worth the extra money... Hey, u get a 5D and get Digic 5, the same FF sensor, u get 4 extra MP, a BG-11E and still pay $3000 less than a 1D X... Well, u get what u pay for... A limited camera with bad ergonomics...
I can't wait for my new 1D X....

I admit, the OP's post did appear boastful, but the point that the 5d3 + Grip isn't ver ergonomic is valid.. I wonder why Canon didn't make the button layouts similar. I mean they DID give the 5d3 so many of the 1DX features...why stop at the button layout.. Same way the OP layered the pics... I'm sure the designers at Canon could have easily worked something out.

Looking at those OP's overlays, a person can see that it's physically impossible to duplicate the button layout on the 5DIII body, especially when adding a grip. So with this rationale, I should be bashing the 60D for not having the same layout as the 5DIII?

I'm sure if it were being designed from scratch, and that was what the designer had in mind, I'm sure it could be done. The whole design would change.. anyways.. the 1 Series will always have "better" ergonomics, features etc... it's their flagship camera after all..... not to mention their most elusive camera yet!

 

[MacDogMcCrunchie]

My 1Ds III and 1D MK IV paid my mortgage and kept my kids happy in the fashion stakes so I have no complaints with the gear. However, after 3 years of abuse - the 1Ds needed updating and naturally the 5D III was the choice to select. When you have giant sausage fingers like mine - you have to use a grip otherwise you press 3 buttons at once - so my supplier ensured it came with the grip and the OP is right in the initial assessment - the joystick is in a dog awful low position - but also - 5 minutes using it you see why it has to be lower to fit the design of the 5D III and naturally - as in any profession - you adapt and move on to earn some dollars - a week on and it is second nature - the camera and grip feel very comfortable - so much so that my 1D IV now sits in the bag taking a well earned rest.

 

[meli]

The design & ergonomics of the grip area in 1D series is an integral part of the concept for the camera sharing the same budget, resources & R&D whereas the design for any grip is kept to a minimum necessary (just styling actually) since its an accessory.

Accessory grip ergonomics could have been resolved/updated even within the limitations imposed by the form if companies would spend for proper R&D, thing is it doesn't make sense from a market point of view. (there wont be a significant sales shift plus grips are intended as cash cows).