Estimating extra reach (resolving power) of crop vs FF

Stu_bert said:
AlanF said:
Northstar said:
This stuff just gets too technical for me, so let me ask a question.

I'm standing on the side of the road on a sunny day and I'm looking at a bald eagle that is 75 meters away sitting at the top of a tree. In my camera bag is my 300mm 2.8 lens, a 7D and 5D3.

I'm shooting handheld. I don't dare move closer for fear that I scare him off.

If I'm trying to produce a final/edited image that "fills the frame" with as much detail, sharpness, and overall IQ as possible, which body do I attach to the 300mm?

A fully grown bald eagle is 1 m long. The size of the image on the sensor for a 300mm lens 75 m away is 4 mm. corresponding to 930 pixels on the 7D or 640 on the 5DIII. 300mm is too short for a decent image. I would use the 300 mm + 2xTC on either camera as 1860 px on the 7D or 1280 on the 5DIII would give an excellent image. You didn't have the 2xTC in your bag, I know but that is bad planning.

Alan - out of curiosity, what's the maths behind subject size, lens, distance, size on sensor please? I've always wanted to be able to calculate this.

Is it focal length/(distance/subject size) = size on sensor?

Thanks in advance.

Stu
Sorry I missed this question - I am busy in Paris. If the subject is a long distance from the lens then the image is very close to being the focal length away from the lens. So,

subject distance/focal length = subject size/image size.
 
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AlanF said:
Stu_bert said:
AlanF said:
Northstar said:
This stuff just gets too technical for me, so let me ask a question.

I'm standing on the side of the road on a sunny day and I'm looking at a bald eagle that is 75 meters away sitting at the top of a tree. In my camera bag is my 300mm 2.8 lens, a 7D and 5D3.

I'm shooting handheld. I don't dare move closer for fear that I scare him off.

If I'm trying to produce a final/edited image that "fills the frame" with as much detail, sharpness, and overall IQ as possible, which body do I attach to the 300mm?

A fully grown bald eagle is 1 m long. The size of the image on the sensor for a 300mm lens 75 m away is 4 mm. corresponding to 930 pixels on the 7D or 640 on the 5DIII. 300mm is too short for a decent image. I would use the 300 mm + 2xTC on either camera as 1860 px on the 7D or 1280 on the 5DIII would give an excellent image. You didn't have the 2xTC in your bag, I know but that is bad planning.

Alan - out of curiosity, what's the maths behind subject size, lens, distance, size on sensor please? I've always wanted to be able to calculate this.

Is it focal length/(distance/subject size) = size on sensor?

Thanks in advance.

Stu
Sorry I missed this question - I am busy in Paris. If the subject is a long distance from the lens then the image is very close to being the focal length away from the lens. So,

subject distance/focal length = subject size/image size.

Here's what I've done. I have listed all my lenses with their corresponding FOV's (in degrees, but for the formula I need to work with half the FOV and with the units in radians) for both APS-C and FF in a spreadsheet. I then have the size of the subject (in meters), and a field for how much "air" I want around my subject (in my case I want like 25% free space around).

Example answering: At what distance will I fill the frame?
Code:
 Length of subject (L) = 1m --> L+Air% = 1,25m
Chosen lens is a 400mm on a FF body.
Code:
 FOV(400mm) = 6,17°. I need FOV(400mm)/2 and to turn that into rads --> 0,054
To calculate the distance (D, in meters) I use
Code:
 D = (L+Air%) * cot(FOV(400)/2) /2
 D = (1,25 * cot(0,054)) /2
 D = 11,6m

I can't make this look as good as I intended in post, but I hope it makes some sense, and that it can be turned into a formula you can use.
 
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Andyx01 said:
ecka said:
ChristopherMarkPerez said:
AlanF said:
Here is a way of calculating the effective extra reach or resolving power of a crop body versus FF, which will amuse the geeks among us...

MTF is not a measure of resolution, it is a measure of a lenses ability to transmit contrast of the original scene through a lens. That's all it measures.

If what you really want is true image resolution, then there are two correct ways of measuring it. The first is a measurement of the performance of the lens itself. This measurement can be found in using something like a USAF resolution test chart and a microscope to perform aerial inspections of the image of the chart after it has passed through the lens.

Problems with this approach include difficultly in setting up a test bench (it's not easy at all). Additionally, the final result will not include measurements of chromatic aberrations, image distortions, field curvature, etc. The most important missing element in this kind of test is the exclusion of the imaging system itself. However, if the question is about real optical resolution, this test will give you the right answer.

Which leads to the second way of measuring, well, actually calculating real image resolution. This is diagnostic and very simple to perform. Simply take the number of image points ("pixels") in your file, divide by the size of your sensor (in millimeters), and divide by two. This number will represent the number of Line Pair per Millimeter (the measure of the ability to go from one white line to one black line) that your sensor can resolve.

This is rather interesting in that you can quickly see that a Canon 7D 18 mpixel sensor is capable of resolving 116 line pair per mm. The Canon 5D MkII is capable of 78 lppmm. As a comparison, Sony's 36mpixel FF sensor is capable of resolving 102 lppmm and Phase One's monster 80mpixel IQ180 returns 97lppmm.

Taking this a step further, look carefully at the physical limits (as in optical physics) of optical resolution, as measured in lppmm. You see that at f/2, an optically correct lens will return 695lppmm in the center of the scene where the light's wavelength is 589.3mu (green). At f/11, an optically correct lens will return 123lppmm, dropping off to 92lppmm at 25 degrees off-axis tangential.

Looking at this over the years, I have come to realize there is seldom a lens in-capable of resolving so poorly that a sensor (or old film for that matter) could out-resolve the lens. Sure, there are other optical effects, but we are talking pure resolution here. Nothing more.

Think about this for a moment. MTF does _not_ measure optical resolution. While useful, it does _not_ tell the story of resolution, no matter how much "math" you throw at it. Secondly, and perhaps most interestingly, optical physics show diffraction limited resolution at f/11 EXCEEDS currently manufactured sensors ability to return that resolution in all cases.

Rather shocking, don't you think?

Back to the original poster's point: Canon's 7D sensor outresolves (using the correct application of the word "resolution") the FF sensors from any manufacturer. It does so, however, for reasons other than those that were brought up.

Correct application of rational thought and real world science can help us properly understand and identify the errors and misleading comments widely published by marketeers and critics of optical imaging systems.

You see, if Canon had made a FF camera with 7D's pixel density, then there wouldn't be any questions - FF wins, period.
Nikon did that with their D7000/D7100 vs D800/D810. You crop FF and you get almost exactly what the pre-cropped D7000/D7100 produce. In fact, you can just shoot in DX mode on D800...
So there is no global question about crop winning anything vs FF other than price.
The question is why Canon didn't make that 46mp FF camera?
Was it because consumers didn't ask for it? - Maybe.
Why didn't they ask for it? - Because they are too ignorant in How-It-Works department. They are affected by this ... More_Pixels=More_noise=Bigger_Files=My_Old_iBox_Can't_Handle_it
=Crop_Is_Just_As_Good_It's_Just_Magically_Different_Because_Size_Doesn't_Matter
=I_Better_Buy_An_Overkill_Lens_For_My_Crop_And_Not_Use_The_Rest_60%_Of_It
=I_Don't_Need_That_Much_Pixels_But_Digital_Zoom_Is_Bad#!@ERROR*2&$ERROR...
System_Reset~Hello_Micro_Four_Thirds=Must_Buy_35-100/2.8_Because_It_Is_70-200/2.8
... virus :).

Lmao, +1

You forgot the part about how the equipment doesn't matter, and a good photographer could take a photo better than the hubble deep field with their iPhone.

Thanks for reminding about that one. Actually, there are plenty of them (like - "macro lenses are too sharp for portraits" or "I shoot JPEG, because I'm no pixel-peeper" or "look at these 300x200 images, 1DX and a Rebel both look the same, so why pay more..."), but who's counting :)
 
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Can anyone tell me why the same lens on a crop vs FF body show different sharpness as measured by DXO and seen on the-digital-picture lens quality tool... thanks..?

http://www.dxomark.com/Lenses/Canon/Canon-EF70-200mm-f28L-IS-II-USM-mounted-on-Canon-EOS-5D-Mark-III__795

http://www.dxomark.com/Lenses/Canon/Canon-EF70-200mm-f28L-IS-II-USM-mounted-on-Canon-EOS-7D__619

http://www.the-digital-picture.com/Reviews/ISO-12233-Sample-Crops.aspx?Lens=687&Camera=453&Sample=0&FLI=1&API=0&LensComp=687&CameraComp=736&SampleComp=0&FLIComp=1&APIComp=0
 
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martinslade said:
Can anyone tell me why the same lens on a crop vs FF body show different sharpness as measured by DXO and seen on the-digital-picture lens quality tool... thanks..?

http://www.dxomark.com/Lenses/Canon/Canon-EF70-200mm-f28L-IS-II-USM-mounted-on-Canon-EOS-5D-Mark-III__795

http://www.dxomark.com/Lenses/Canon/Canon-EF70-200mm-f28L-IS-II-USM-mounted-on-Canon-EOS-7D__619

http://www.the-digital-picture.com/Reviews/ISO-12233-Sample-Crops.aspx?Lens=687&Camera=453&Sample=0&FLI=1&API=0&LensComp=687&CameraComp=736&SampleComp=0&FLIComp=1&APIComp=0

Because on crop you are using only 40% of the glass to get the same picture, which leads to lower sharpness and contrast as well as stronger aberrations (because you are putting more pixels there).
 
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Thanks ecka for your reply. I must admit I don't really get it. What I don't understand is that a given lens produces an in focus image circle and either a crop or FF sensor is "placed" in that circle, albeit with different numbers/size of pixels and the 2 images are very different. The fact that the 2 sensors are a different size appears irrelevant. The FF will cover more of the image circle than the crop sensor.

Can anyone give me a structured/scientific explanation as to what's happening please... thanks...

ecka said:
martinslade said:
Can anyone tell me why the same lens on a crop vs FF body show different sharpness as measured by DXO and seen on the-digital-picture lens quality tool... thanks..?

http://www.dxomark.com/Lenses/Canon/Canon-EF70-200mm-f28L-IS-II-USM-mounted-on-Canon-EOS-5D-Mark-III__795

http://www.dxomark.com/Lenses/Canon/Canon-EF70-200mm-f28L-IS-II-USM-mounted-on-Canon-EOS-7D__619

http://www.the-digital-picture.com/Reviews/ISO-12233-Sample-Crops.aspx?Lens=687&Camera=453&Sample=0&FLI=1&API=0&LensComp=687&CameraComp=736&SampleComp=0&FLIComp=1&APIComp=0

Because on crop you are using only 40% of the glass to get the same picture, which leads to lower sharpness and contrast as well as stronger aberrations (because you are putting more pixels there).
 
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Thanks ecka for your reply. I must admit I don't really get it. What I don't understand is that a given lens produces an in focus image circle and either a crop or FF sensor is "placed" in that circle, albeit with different numbers/size of pixels and the 2 images are very different. The fact that the 2 sensors are a different size appears irrelevant. The FF will cover more of the image circle than the crop sensor.

Can anyone give me a structured/scientific explanation as to what's happening please... thanks...
 
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martinslade said:
Thanks ecka for your reply. I must admit I don't really get it. What I don't understand is that a given lens produces an in focus image circle and either a crop or FF sensor is "placed" in that circle, albeit with different numbers/size of pixels and the 2 images are very different. The fact that the 2 sensors are a different size appears irrelevant. The FF will cover more of the image circle than the crop sensor.

Can anyone give me a structured/scientific explanation as to what's happening please... thanks...

The smaller sensor requires greater enlargement for the same final image size. This means the original must be much sharper for the same final sharpness.

Looked at another way, if you measure lens resolving power in line pairs per picture height, the smaller picture height means less resolving power when you have less picture height.
 
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martinslade said:
Thanks ecka for your reply. I must admit I don't really get it. What I don't understand is that a given lens produces an in focus image circle and either a crop or FF sensor is "placed" in that circle, albeit with different numbers/size of pixels and the 2 images are very different. The fact that the 2 sensors are a different size appears irrelevant. The FF will cover more of the image circle than the crop sensor.

Can anyone give me a structured/scientific explanation as to what's happening please... thanks...

If you can't understand a simple explanation, what makes you think that you will understand the scientific one? Or then you'll just take it on faith, because some book knows better? I'm sorry, I don't get your logic :).

First, you must understand how optics work, I mean physics. Every optical system is diffraction-limited (which means there is a limited maximum resolution it is able to project) and you can't just put whatever number of pixels you want (or imagine) and still get a perfectly sharp image. Sensor size is very relevant. Read a book ;).
 
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martinslade said:
Thanks ecka for your reply. I must admit I don't really get it. What I don't understand is that a given lens produces an in focus image circle and either a crop or FF sensor is "placed" in that circle, albeit with different numbers/size of pixels and the 2 images are very different. The fact that the 2 sensors are a different size appears irrelevant. The FF will cover more of the image circle than the crop sensor.

Can anyone give me a structured/scientific explanation as to what's happening please... thanks...

Basically the smaller the sensor ( or film ) format, the smaller the magnification at capture ( shorter focal length lens, smaller format) and the greater the magnification required to view = loss of quality.
 
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I hope I'm not high jacking this thread ... It's gone way too scientific for me to comprehend fully despite trawling tHrough the posts.

Would it be a reasonable conclusion to draw that at low ISO (100-400), the difference between the APS-C and the FF is negligible, thereby meaning that the reach benefit could be satisfactorily obtained at the low ISOs?
 
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J.R. said:
I hope I'm not high jacking this thread ... It's gone way too scientific for me to comprehend fully despite trawling tHrough the posts.

Would it be a reasonable conclusion to draw that at low ISO (100-400), the difference between the APS-C and the FF is negligible, thereby meaning that the reach benefit could be satisfactorily obtained at the low ISOs?

There is always a difference. It may only be negligible for those who don't care.
 
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ecka said:
J.R. said:
I hope I'm not high jacking this thread ... It's gone way too scientific for me to comprehend fully despite trawling tHrough the posts.

Would it be a reasonable conclusion to draw that at low ISO (100-400), the difference between the APS-C and the FF is negligible, thereby meaning that the reach benefit could be satisfactorily obtained at the low ISOs?

There is always a difference. It may only be negligible for those who don't care.

Thanks. What differences would be obvious and what would be the ones you would look for? Again, I'm talking only of low ISO.
 
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J.R. said:
ecka said:
J.R. said:
I hope I'm not high jacking this thread ... It's gone way too scientific for me to comprehend fully despite trawling tHrough the posts.

Would it be a reasonable conclusion to draw that at low ISO (100-400), the difference between the APS-C and the FF is negligible, thereby meaning that the reach benefit could be satisfactorily obtained at the low ISOs?

There is always a difference. It may only be negligible for those who don't care.

Thanks. What differences would be obvious and what would be the ones you would look for? Again, I'm talking only of low ISO.

Sharpness, contrast, aberrations.
 
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ecka said:
J.R. said:
ecka said:
J.R. said:
I hope I'm not high jacking this thread ... It's gone way too scientific for me to comprehend fully despite trawling tHrough the posts.

Would it be a reasonable conclusion to draw that at low ISO (100-400), the difference between the APS-C and the FF is negligible, thereby meaning that the reach benefit could be satisfactorily obtained at the low ISOs?

There is always a difference. It may only be negligible for those who don't care.

Thanks. What differences would be obvious and what would be the ones you would look for? Again, I'm talking only of low ISO.

Sharpness, contrast, aberrations.

Hmm ... so basically sharpness and contrast are the obvious ones and the aberrations would be the one you would look for. Thanks for this.

To my mind sharpness has been relative, depending more on the available light and the focusing. Why the FF should be sharper is something I've not really understood.

BTW, wouldn't the aberrations be caused by the lens instead of the camera body?
 
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J.R. said:
ecka said:
J.R. said:
ecka said:
J.R. said:
I hope I'm not high jacking this thread ... It's gone way too scientific for me to comprehend fully despite trawling tHrough the posts.

Would it be a reasonable conclusion to draw that at low ISO (100-400), the difference between the APS-C and the FF is negligible, thereby meaning that the reach benefit could be satisfactorily obtained at the low ISOs?

There is always a difference. It may only be negligible for those who don't care.

Thanks. What differences would be obvious and what would be the ones you would look for? Again, I'm talking only of low ISO.

Sharpness, contrast, aberrations.

Hmm ... so basically sharpness and contrast are the obvious ones and the aberrations would be the one you would look for. Thanks for this.

To my mind sharpness has been relative, depending more on the available light and the focusing. Why the FF should be sharper is something I've not really understood.

BTW, wouldn't the aberrations be caused by the lens instead of the camera body?

(Hint) Diffraction-limited optics = FF sharper, either because the pixels are larger or there is more of them.
Aberrations are caused by the lens. If a lens is producing (let's say) 3 pixel wide aberration on 20mp FF sensor, then the same lens will produce 5 pixels wide aberration on 20mp APS-C sensor just because those pixels are 1.6x smaller and denser. Simple math here.
 
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ecka said:
Aberrations are caused by the lens. If a lens is producing (let's say) 3 pixel wide aberration on 20mp FF sensor, then the same lens will produce 5 pixels wide aberration on 20mp APS-C sensor just because those pixels are 1.6x smaller and denser. Simple math here.

Thanks
 
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ecka said:
J.R. said:
ecka said:
J.R. said:
ecka said:
J.R. said:
I hope I'm not high jacking this thread ... It's gone way too scientific for me to comprehend fully despite trawling tHrough the posts.

Would it be a reasonable conclusion to draw that at low ISO (100-400), the difference between the APS-C and the FF is negligible, thereby meaning that the reach benefit could be satisfactorily obtained at the low ISOs?

There is always a difference. It may only be negligible for those who don't care.

Thanks. What differences would be obvious and what would be the ones you would look for? Again, I'm talking only of low ISO.

Sharpness, contrast, aberrations.

Hmm ... so basically sharpness and contrast are the obvious ones and the aberrations would be the one you would look for. Thanks for this.

To my mind sharpness has been relative, depending more on the available light and the focusing. Why the FF should be sharper is something I've not really understood.

BTW, wouldn't the aberrations be caused by the lens instead of the camera body?

(Hint) Diffraction-limited optics = FF sharper, either because the pixels are larger or there is more of them.
Aberrations are caused by the lens. If a lens is producing (let's say) 3 pixel wide aberration on 20mp FF sensor, then the same lens will produce 5 pixels wide aberration on 20mp APS-C sensor just because those pixels are 1.6x smaller and denser. Simple math here.
Hi,
IMHO, it's not a straight forward answer... yes, a crop sensor will "amplify" the lens aberrations, but if you are using a FF lens on a crop sensor especially a good FF lens, you might get better IQ as the lens usually perform better at the center area... Look at any MTF lens and you'll see a lot of lens start to degrade after the 15mm mark, but a crop sensor user can basically ignore anything after the 10mm on the MTF chart.

Have a nice day.
 
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weixing said:
ecka said:
J.R. said:
ecka said:
J.R. said:
ecka said:
J.R. said:
I hope I'm not high jacking this thread ... It's gone way too scientific for me to comprehend fully despite trawling tHrough the posts.

Would it be a reasonable conclusion to draw that at low ISO (100-400), the difference between the APS-C and the FF is negligible, thereby meaning that the reach benefit could be satisfactorily obtained at the low ISOs?

There is always a difference. It may only be negligible for those who don't care.

Thanks. What differences would be obvious and what would be the ones you would look for? Again, I'm talking only of low ISO.

Sharpness, contrast, aberrations.

Hmm ... so basically sharpness and contrast are the obvious ones and the aberrations would be the one you would look for. Thanks for this.

To my mind sharpness has been relative, depending more on the available light and the focusing. Why the FF should be sharper is something I've not really understood.

BTW, wouldn't the aberrations be caused by the lens instead of the camera body?

(Hint) Diffraction-limited optics = FF sharper, either because the pixels are larger or there is more of them.
Aberrations are caused by the lens. If a lens is producing (let's say) 3 pixel wide aberration on 20mp FF sensor, then the same lens will produce 5 pixels wide aberration on 20mp APS-C sensor just because those pixels are 1.6x smaller and denser. Simple math here.
Hi,
IMHO, it's not a straight forward answer... yes, a crop sensor will "amplify" the lens aberrations, but if you are using a FF lens on a crop sensor especially a good FF lens, you might get better IQ as the lens usually perform better at the center area... Look at any MTF lens and you'll see a lot of lens start to degrade after the 15mm mark, but a crop sensor user can basically ignore anything after the 10mm on the MTF chart.

Have a nice day.

No, not really. Imagine that you have ~50mp FF sensor and ~20mp APS-C sensor. Both would produce the same level of IQ, only FF gives you 2.5 times more of it + you can crop it to get exactly same thing. Using smaller sensor for a lens with soft corners is a lousy excuse. Theoretically, we can take each lens element and cut it down to APS-C image circle requirements and it wouldn't be the perfect formula. It would have unnecessarily thick glass. The secret lies in proportions. You can visualize the FF lens image quality as a 3D graph in a shape of a cone. Now if you cut it down to an APS-C size, you still get a cone. This way you may get rid of the problematic corners, but the sharpest part of it (the middle) won't be as sharp as FF. It's a compromise and a big one.
 
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