Evaporating printer ink or Canon conspiracy

[rpt]

Printer is just a tool - so you either need it or not. Just like anything else.

Nail on the head man!

 

[dtaylor]

If you want the advantages of home printing, take a look at Epson's 3880. It's part of their professional line and big enough to overcome the major disadvantages with home photo ink jets, but still small enough to be manageable (space; ink cost and usage) for a home user.

* The carts are big. I can print sheet after sheet, 17x22, and the ink levels barely budge. (Cost per print is about even with labs for 8x10 and cheaper for larger sizes, assuming paper of similar quality.)

* I've literally gone months without printing only to power up, hear the printer run a single auto clean cycle, and print a perfect test sheet. It just doesn't clog.

* It seems to actually track time and sheets printed and auto clean when it needs to, not just because you powered off for a few minutes. I've never kept track to know what the triggers are, but I've also never had the impression it was wasting ink.

* Even when it warns that a cart is low, you keep printing. There's probably a dozen or more 16x20's left in the cart. You can change carts mid-print without affecting the print, so you just keep going until it asks for a new cart.

* Changing a cart does not touch the ink levels in the other carts. Only the changed line is primed. Most ink jets prime every line once a single cart is changed which defeats the whole purpose of individual carts and is a big part of the reason why ink disappears into a void.

* IQ, paper choices, longevity...all top of the line. At the 2nd best resolution setting (1440 instead of 2880) this printer will put lab prints to shame.

I should note that I do not and would not use my 3880 for anything but photos. I have a separate, cheap ink jet for text.

The only drawback is that the glossy and matte blacks share a line, so if you change paper types you lose some ink (a few bucks worth). So you need to batch your prints by type. But the printer performs so well...and the carts last so long...that this is hardly worth complaining about.

 

[danski0224]

* Even when it warns that a cart is low, you keep printing. There's probably a dozen or more 16x20's left in the cart. You can change carts mid-print without affecting the print, so you just keep going until it asks for a new cart.

* Changing a cart does not touch the ink levels in the other carts. Only the changed line is primed. Most ink jets prime every line once a single cart is changed which defeats the whole purpose of individual carts and is a big part of the reason why ink disappears into a void.

The only drawback is that the glossy and matte blacks share a line, so if you change paper types you lose some ink (a few bucks worth). So you need to batch your prints by type. But the printer performs so well...and the carts last so long...that this is hardly worth complaining about.

I have a feeling that the Pro-10 doesn't have "hot swappable" ink tanks.

I have also been wondering if all inks are primed when one tank is replaced. I haven't been able to find any support in the manual yet.

Is there an Epson that shares the strong points outlined in your posting but doesn't require a change of black ink for glossy/matte?

 

[dtaylor]

I have a feeling that the Pro-10 doesn't have "hot swappable" ink tanks.

I have also been wondering if all inks are primed when one tank is replaced. I haven't been able to find any support in the manual yet.

Is there an Epson that shares the strong points outlined in your posting but doesn't require a change of black ink for glossy/matte?

I don't know why Epson does this, but I think even the 4900 and above share a line for matte and glossy black. Keep in mind that you do not physically swap the carts. Both blacks stay in the printer. If there's a paper type switch the printer will flush and prime the line.

According to the Epson 3800 FAQ at http://people.csail.mit.edu/ericchan/dp/Epson3800/faq.html#swap_pk_mk swapping to matte costs $0.85 cents and swapping to photo (glossy) costs $2.25. Enough to make you think about your printing and batch prints, but not enough to get upset over if you need to switch back and forth a couple times to meet a deadline.

The positives completely eclipse this one annoyance. I guarantee you other printers waste more ink $$$ with their stupid clogs and cleaning cycles then this model does swapping blacks. The carts last forever even with the swaps.

 

[danski0224]

I looked at the 4900, and the net is full of poor reviews. I get it that it is more common to post poor reviews than good ones.

Any particular time to watch for Epson deals, with "Black Friday" and "cyber Monday" distant memories now?

 

[mackguyver]

I bought a Pro-100 several weeks ago when Adorama had it for $100AR with free paper. For that price, I thought it would be worthwhile to get some additional control and convenience over my prints. So far I've made about 30 prints (mostly 8x10) and the indicators still show everything as full. Does it drop like a cheap car fuel gauge or something? I.e. 300 miles to half tank, 350 miles to 1/4 tank, 10 miles to Empty!

 

[dtaylor]

I looked at the 4900, and the net is full of poor reviews. I get it that it is more common to post poor reviews than good ones.

That's surprising to me. But when I did a search after reading your post it looks like they have a failing print head issue with that model. The actual reviews are good, the ratings and complaints trace back to that issue. Disappointing.

I don't think that's happening with the 3880 line, but mine was manufactured a few years ago.

Any particular time to watch for Epson deals, with "Black Friday" and "cyber Monday" distant memories now?

None that I'm aware of.

 

[danski0224]

Well, I happened upon a gently used Epson 3800 for a fair price. It was local, so I could check it out.

Had to buy some ink, but I'm still in it for less than a 3880 refurb and way less than a new 3880.

Doesn't seem to be too many real life major differences between the 3800 and 3880 based on a quick search.

Network setup (wired) was a bit of a pain. No PnP there. Had to read the manual.

Tried out some prints onto Canon paper, and as long as I pick the right settings, print output looks very, very good.

The choosing the right print settings part is more involved than the Canon Pro-10.

 

[danski0224]

I bought a Pro-100 several weeks ago when Adorama had it for $100AR with free paper. For that price, I thought it would be worthwhile to get some additional control and convenience over my prints. So far I've made about 30 prints (mostly 8x10) and the indicators still show everything as full. Does it drop like a cheap car fuel gauge or something? I.e. 300 miles to half tank, 350 miles to 1/4 tank, 10 miles to Empty!

I have a Pro-10 and the ink levels drop fast in my use.

I have some 13 x 19 prints I have done, and those are quite a bit bigger than 4 x 6 or 8 x 10. Could ba a "duh" moment, or maybe I had different expectations.

I think I have done about 10 each 13 x 19 and probably 20 8.5 x 11 and maybe a dozen 4 x 6, and I'm through the starter inks and getting into a 3rd change on some.

The Pro-10 cartridges have an ink volume of 14ml and cost ~$16 each.

The Epson 3800 cartridges have an ink volume of 80ml and cost ~$60 each.

Simply based on volume and OEM ink costs, Canon is $91.42 for 80ml of ink (5.7 Canon cartridges for 80ml). This doesn't account for wasted ink during cartridge replacement. Six cartridges = $96. Both printers don't use the same number of ink cartridges, so a direct comparison is difficult.

There is a print cost comparison at Red River Papers, and the Canon is roughly 2x Epson per print in their testing.

There is an established Epson ink aftermarket too.

So, the smaller cartridges explain why the levels drop fast on bigger prints.

I find the Canon Pro-10 output very nice, but it isn't economical*. It would have been better to figure this out beforehand

* inkjet printing isn't "economical", but small ink cartridges don't match well with bigger prints...

 

[dtaylor]

Well, I happened upon a gently used Epson 3800 for a fair price. It was local, so I could check it out.

Had to buy some ink, but I'm still in it for less than a 3880 refurb and way less than a new 3880.

Doesn't seem to be too many real life major differences between the 3800 and 3880 based on a quick search.

Network setup (wired) was a bit of a pain. No PnP there. Had to read the manual.

Tried out some prints onto Canon paper, and as long as I pick the right settings, print output looks very, very good.

Good find. There's very little real difference between the two.

I highly recommend trying out Epson's Hot Press Bright paper. Epson has a paper sample pack that's worth getting. It has two sheets each of all the press variations, exhibition fiber, etc. I was a glossy paper fan until I tried the press papers. Of course there's a ton of papers from 3rd parties as well.

inkjet printing isn't "economical", but small ink cartridges don't match well with bigger prints...

Exactly. I do consider the 3800/3880 economical once you've dealt with the up front cost above the value of the ink included with the printer.

 

[mackguyver]

I bought a Pro-100 several weeks ago when Adorama had it for $100AR with free paper. For that price, I thought it would be worthwhile to get some additional control and convenience over my prints. So far I've made about 30 prints (mostly 8x10) and the indicators still show everything as full. Does it drop like a cheap car fuel gauge or something? I.e. 300 miles to half tank, 350 miles to 1/4 tank, 10 miles to Empty!

I have a Pro-10 and the ink levels drop fast in my use.

I have some 13 x 19 prints I have done, and those are quite a bit bigger than 4 x 6 or 8 x 10. Could ba a "duh" moment, or maybe I had different expectations.

I think I have done about 10 each 13 x 19 and probably 20 8.5 x 11 and maybe a dozen 4 x 6, and I'm through the starter inks and getting into a 3rd change on some.

The Pro-10 cartridges have an ink volume of 14ml and cost ~$16 each.

The Epson 3800 cartridges have an ink volume of 80ml and cost ~$60 each.

Simply based on volume and OEM ink costs, Canon is $91.42 for 80ml of ink (5.7 Canon cartridges for 80ml). This doesn't account for wasted ink during cartridge replacement. Six cartridges = $96. Both printers don't use the same number of ink cartridges, so a direct comparison is difficult.

There is a print cost comparison at Red River Papers, and the Canon is roughly 2x Epson per print in their testing.

There is an established Epson ink aftermarket too.

So, the smaller cartridges explain why the levels drop fast on bigger prints.

I find the Canon Pro-10 output very nice, but it isn't economical*. It would have been better to figure this out beforehand

* inkjet printing isn't "economical", but small ink cartridges don't match well with bigger prints...

Thanks for the detailed reply and that's some interesting math! I have owned several Epson printers over the years and have never been happy with the color, even after extensive calibration. The Canon profiles and ability to print in 16-bit color aren't perfect, but MUCH closer than any of my calibrated Epson's ever were. Being able to make a single print versus many to get the color right is going to save me a lot of money.

 

[danski0224]

Thanks for the detailed reply and that's some interesting math! I have owned several Epson printers over the years and have never been happy with the color, even after extensive calibration. The Canon profiles and ability to print in 16-bit color aren't perfect, but MUCH closer than any of my calibrated Epson's ever were. Being able to make a single print versus many to get the color right is going to save me a lot of money.

The first few prints out of my new to me printer weren't so good. I used the modified version of the Atkinson Test Print that is available for free online.

The print done with the Canon Pro-10 was stunning.

First print from Epson 3800 was bleh. More like WTF because the demo print that was done for me was absolutely stunning on the same Canon paper. The person I bought the printer from sells prints for a living, so I bet he had it dialed in...

Then I found a new revision for Traditional Photo Paper ICC profiles (10.0 12/09/2013) and PDF instructions on how to use it on the Epson website. Once I followed the instructions for Photoshop, I could not visually differentiate the Epson 3800 output from the pro-10 output- even using an Epson printer to print on Canon photo paper ;D so my stash of buy one get 4 is good .

Similar issues in Lightroom, but once I figured out what profile to use, print output was fantastic.

Even moreso considering that some of the cartridges in the 3800 printer are 3 years old.

Granted, the printer interface for the Pro-10 is much nicer than the Epson, and switching black inks is automatic on the Canon and must be done manually on the 3800.

 

[danski0224]

Good find. There's very little real difference between the two.

I highly recommend trying out Epson's Hot Press Bright paper. Epson has a paper sample pack that's worth getting. It has two sheets each of all the press variations, exhibition fiber, etc. I was a glossy paper fan until I tried the press papers. Of course there's a ton of papers from 3rd parties as well.

I may give that a shot.

I did pick up a pack of Canon matte paper, and although I didn't like it at first, the look has grown on me.

I also picked up the Red River sampler pack plus their special media sampler pack.

Once the remaining new inks come in, I'll change them and then do some test prints. I'll probably follow Red Rivers advice and just print the same image on each sampler page for reference.

Exactly. I do consider the 3800/3880 economical once you've dealt with the up front cost above the value of the ink included with the printer.

In the same line of thought, the Pro-10 has value for dialing in smaller prints.

 

[Quasimodo]

I have a Pixma Pro 1 and I am very happy with it.

Printing home is expensive, and ink is only of of several factors, paper being the second most cost-driving issue. I use Canson A3+ paper, and each paper costs me around 7 dollar per print, and with the ink included I reckon a print costs me around 12 dollars. That said, I have complete control over the printing process, and the ability to download or create separate ICC profiles is a very nice feature. I seriously doubt if printing at a professional service would give me better results, maybe with the exception if I were to send my prints to Ilford in the UK.

 

[danski0224]

Well, those of us in the USA have had some pretty darn good deals on Canon paper lately, if you purchased from Canon USA. Still have a B1G4 thru 12/28.

For me, the cost of the paper is negligible.

I am hoping for a buy 1 get 4 ink sale....

;D

 

[mackguyver]

I am hoping for a buy 1 get 4 ink sale....

;D

+10000000000 on that one, but doubt it will ever happen! I've stocked up on the paper, too - the buy one get 9 free deal was crazy!

 

[alexanderferdinand]

I print myself, and I am glad to have the 3800.
Yes, around €1200 buying it, but then you have the lovely 80ml ink cartridges.

I love to print myself, because of my history having a darkroom in the past century for decades and the control of every step.
And: the 3800/3880 are able to go down to 13x18cm (5x7inches) for my album.
Cleaning cycles: a necessary PITA, or you have clogging.

 

[dtaylor]

Thanks for the detailed reply and that's some interesting math! I have owned several Epson printers over the years and have never been happy with the color, even after extensive calibration. The Canon profiles and ability to print in 16-bit color aren't perfect, but MUCH closer than any of my calibrated Epson's ever were. Being able to make a single print versus many to get the color right is going to save me a lot of money.

I never have to make prints to get the color right with the 3880. As long as I keep my monitor calibrated and choose the correct paper profile, what I see is what I get. I should note that I have setup the lights in my office for proofing prints, both in terms of brightness and color temperature.

I can say the same for Advanced B&W mode with one change: I choose the Dark setting instead of the default (which I believer is Darker). With that one adjustment my B&W prints match my screen and are the equal of anything I used to produce in a darkroom, if not better.

This wasn't the case with past Epson printers I've used, especially when it came to B&W. But the 3880 was calibrated out of the box. And I have yet to encounter a bad paper profile from Epson or any of the 3rd parties.

 

[dtaylor]

I did pick up a pack of Canon matte paper, and although I didn't like it at first, the look has grown on me.

Hot Press Bright won me over with the first print. Before that I was partial to glossy and semi gloss / luster papers. Hot Press Bright has the color, saturation, contrast, and deep blacks of glossy papers without the glossy sheen between your eyes and the detail. I love it.

For B&W I like Harman Matt Cotton Smooth a little better. For color, Hot Press Bright. But they are very, very close. If I'm out of one I won't hesitate to substitute the other. Most of what I print to hang on a wall now ends up on one of those two papers.

 

[dtaylor]

Granted, the printer interface for the Pro-10 is much nicer than the Epson, and switching black inks is automatic on the Canon and must be done manually on the 3800.

Are you sure? If I'm on, say, photo black and pick a matte paper the 3880 will change for me. I don't have to walk up to the printer and change it on the printer UI.