Hiring a Professional...

[jhpeterson]

I was thinking $600 for wedding pictures sounded high, but then again I got married in a courthouse during the judges lunch break and I tipped the court reporter to snap a cell phone pic...

Actually it is, relatively speaking, compared to what editorial typically pays (if at all, these days). I still have clients who seem to think they're being generous when they offer $350-400 per day.
Commercial work pays little better. I'll put in long days of 10 or 12 hours, sometimes 14 if need be, bring along an assistant and a few hundred pounds of lighting and grip gear, yet there's the expectation that anything over a thousand is way too much.
In my book, wedding and portrait guys have it easy.

 

[neuroanatomist]

The customer may not ever care but it's your job to make them realize why you're the better option than the Craigslist photog (if this is what you want to do for a living).

A laundry list like that in the original graphic won't do that. The overall message there seemed to be that having a lot of expensive stuff and spending time using it will yield images that are "not terrible" and "meet requirements" of a client. Woo hoo, sounds so worthwhile to me. :

If photographers' pictures don't make clients realize that they are the better option than a Craigslist photographer, then maybe they're not the better option.

And this is why "promotion" is in that list. If people don't see your work then they can't tell the difference. Promotion is your job and you do it with websites and a client list. This is how people come to me. Failure comes from those that think their images are great, I'll just hang a card outside with my name + photography... the money will pour in without any effort . Ain't happening without promotion, the job part.. making people realize you are different from the Craigslist photog with no promotion, no images is about as impossible as it gets.

If equipment does not matter to you and plays no part in the quality of your work you should be shooting BIF with cellphone, not a 600mm.

I'm not saying those things are unimportant – I'm saying they are not effective justifications from the client's perspective for why a 'real pro' charges 5-20x what a 'Craigslist pro' charges.

"Dear Future Bride, you should hire me to shoot your wedding because I spent lots of money on camera and computer gear, paid for a great website with costly SEO, and need to buy gas for my car to drive to your wedding."

As a client, I don't care about that, and justifying your charges like that is crass at best.

But hey, maybe you should post that graphic on your website's home page today. Be sure to add 'continually updated home page' to the list of things that distinguish a real pro!

 

[Bennymiata]

I explain to people that by hiring a professional (like me, of course) it's not just to get a FEW good photos, but that EVERY photo they get (and there will be hundreds of them) will be well exposed, sharp, and be well framed photos.

Many amateurs can get a few good shots, but they don't seem to be able to really document the event from beginning to end.
To me, that is the real difference.
When I go to see a prospective client, I show them lots of the mantle-piece photos, but I also show them 500 or so photos from just one wedding to show them what consistency really means, and I ask them to show me a video they've taken with their iPhone indoors at night, then compare it to video that I take of receptions etc.
When they can compare the quality of my photos to theirs, they're usually sold.
It also helps that I have a top-of-the-line Samsung tablet as it shows off high-res photos so well.
I also explain that a wedding or event is a historical time, and by having good photos of everyone that is there (especially parents and grandparents as well as children) will bring back a flood of memories in the future, especially regarding those that may have past in the mean time.

 

[axtstern]

To Bennymiata:

You realize that you just pressed the complete wisdom they sell in an expensive 2 hour "Become a wedding hotographer" in a single forum contribution.

I really learn something each time I come to this forum

 

[Luds34]

The whole "livable wage, pay for food" piece really made me groan. Reminded me when I changed companies that does my weekly garbage pickup. I got a bit of a nasty letter about how the company I was leaving pays their drivers a good wage, their a local community company, and blah blah blah. It's garbage pickup, not rocket science and someone is offering to do the same thing for 1/3 less cost. It was like buying my first new car after graduating college, the sales manager literally pulled the "feeding his kids" line as we were negotiating price. I couldn't believe it. Of course I really wanted the car so I rolled my eyes and continued on.

 

[RustyTheGeek]

Living Wage vs. Standard of Living vs. Economy vs. Capitalism/Free Enterprise vs. Value of the Dollar, etc. == REALITY

I also groan when I hear "Living Wage". Not because I don't think the fantasy is nice where everyone could make a comfortable living doing what they love but because people need to wake up to the cruel reality that society dictates what doing what they love is worth. Sorry if doing what you love only pays dick and you have a family. Don't have a family. Or don't have a nice car. Or live in a dump. Whatever sacrifices are required to 'do what you love'. That's REALITY.

It's pretty simple (I didn't say easy)... decide what standard of living you can tolerate and how much financial security you want and then prepare/educate yourself and do something that pays what you need. Sometimes, if you're lucky, what you love turns out to pay well. Unfortunately, photography rarely makes anyone a ton of money. Just like most subjective art/talent related vocations. For a small percentage, sure. But they worked their ass off and ate a lot of Ramen Noodles to get to that point and I bet they had a lot of side jobs along the way. And the photography 'product' will always be subject to changing customer opinion in a highly subjective market for what it's worth regardless of the cost to produce it. That's REALITY.

Buying a Rebel, a flash and using your iPad to become a professional photographer on CL might get you started but it will never pay a "Living Wage". Neither will taking out a loan and buying $20K worth of pro gear. It's RISKY. But if you are a dedicated, gifted and slightly insane photographer, you'll do what it takes to grow and build a sustainable business. It truly is about the finished product and what you lack in equipment might be compensated for by sheer determination and passion for the right results regardless of the personal sacrifice.

This is the American Dream. Good luck and may The Force be with You. But don't expect a "Living Wage" now or probably ever. Society and Capitalism just don't work that way. This is why I work in IT, my wife works in medical and I enjoy photography as a hobby. Because I could never afford to enjoy it as a business.

 

[Pookie]

The customer may not ever care but it's your job to make them realize why you're the better option than the Craigslist photog (if this is what you want to do for a living).

A laundry list like that in the original graphic won't do that. The overall message there seemed to be that having a lot of expensive stuff and spending time using it will yield images that are "not terrible" and "meet requirements" of a client. Woo hoo, sounds so worthwhile to me. :

If photographers' pictures don't make clients realize that they are the better option than a Craigslist photographer, then maybe they're not the better option.

And this is why "promotion" is in that list. If people don't see your work then they can't tell the difference. Promotion is your job and you do it with websites and a client list. This is how people come to me. Failure comes from those that think their images are great, I'll just hang a card outside with my name + photography... the money will pour in without any effort . Ain't happening without promotion, the job part.. making people realize you are different from the Craigslist photog with no promotion, no images is about as impossible as it gets.

If equipment does not matter to you and plays no part in the quality of your work you should be shooting BIF with cellphone, not a 600mm.

I'm not saying those things are unimportant – I'm saying they are not effective justifications from the client's perspective for why a 'real pro' charges 5-20x what a 'Craigslist pro' charges.

"Dear Future Bride, you should hire me to shoot your wedding because I spent lots of money on camera and computer gear, paid for a great website with costly SEO, and need to buy gas for my car to drive to your wedding."

As a client, I don't care about that, and justifying your charges like that is crass at best.

But hey, maybe you should post that graphic on your website's home page today. Be sure to add 'continually updated home page' to the list of things that distinguish a real pro!

As a client, if you paid anywhere from say 500-50k for a wedding and you're shopping around for photographers you'd expect a certain level of competence and quality. If I showed up to weddings with a whole slew of iPhones and a bunch of PS... how long would you think I'd be in business?

It is all about impressions. This isn't posted to my commercial site! This was a "funny" sent to me from a colleague about our "business". This is posted to a forum where people spend thousands of dollars on lenses for shooting BIF & flowers and never get paid, photographers who are trying do this type of work or some that actually do this for a living. It's called an inside joke. I actually work in this field and that means daily promotion, expenses, education and yes, lots a of gear to do the job well. It's never "Dear Future Bride...", a bride is usually totally onboard and done her research... often it's the soon to be husband or extended family that needs to be a bit more convinced. Would I ever tell this or show this to clients... absolutely not. Is it in the back of my mind as I sit down with clients and discuss packages everyday... absolutely. It's all part of a bigger equation, it all matters... you have to bite your tongue and smile, explain and try to get the assignment. Salesmanship.

 

[Pookie]

...they worked their ass off and ate a lot of Ramen Noodles to get to that point and I bet they had a lot of side jobs along the way. And the photography 'product' will always be subject to changing customer opinion in a highly subjective market for what it's worth regardless of the cost to produce it. That's REALITY.

Absolutely... this was really the whole point. None of this comes easy, you do have to invest huge amounts of time and money, take big risks. The first 3-4 years for me were really trying. Fortunately things are good. I often meet new photographers with lots of fire. They read about 5k+ pay days and think easy, I love taking pictures. I'll just head down to Costco and bam... photographer!!! A year later with despair in their eyes they are selling off everything.

Just as I said earlier... this is for the photographers out there, not client consumption (unless you're into eating loads of Ramen )

 

[takesome1]

...they worked their ass off and ate a lot of Ramen Noodles to get to that point and I bet they had a lot of side jobs along the way. And the photography 'product' will always be subject to changing customer opinion in a highly subjective market for what it's worth regardless of the cost to produce it. That's REALITY.

Absolutely... this was really the whole point. None of this comes easy, you do have to invest huge amounts of time and money, take big risks. The first 3-4 years for me were really trying. Fortunately things are good. I often meet new photographers with lots of fire. They read about 5k+ pay days and think easy, I love taking pictures. I'll just head down to Costco and bam... photographer!!! A year later with despair in their eyes they are selling off everything.

Just as I said earlier... this is for the photographers out there, not client consumption (unless you're into eating loads of Ramen )

The reality is you choose a tough business. Just because you love photography it doesn't mean that making a decent living is going to be easy. It is simple supply and demand, there are to many people that love photography and weddings and want to be a wedding photographer. For under a $1000 they can own a DSLR and their dream can come true. Then there are to few 5-50K weddings to feed all of those photographers dreams.

 

[neuroanatomist]

Just as I said earlier... this is for the photographers out there, not client consumption

Oh, I see. I guess I misunderstood when you posted the graphic then said it's a nice blurb and its your job to make the customer realize what they're really paying for.

All true and but a nice little blurb as it captures the essence of the job. The customer may not ever care but it's your job to make them realize why you're the better option than the Craigslist photog (if this is what you want to do for a living).

 

[unfocused]

I'm reminded of a famous study conducted under the guidance of the French sociologist Pierre Bourdieu, "Photography – A Middle-brow Art," conducted in the 1960s.

Bourdieu and his colleagues studied enthusiasts, artist-photographers and professional photographers. One of the things they observed among the professional photographers was an obsession with the profession being degraded and diluted by new technologies which made it much easier for people to enter the profession without the years of training that the then-older generation of photographers had to endure.

I guess the more things change, the more they stay the same.

 

[Pookie]

Just as I said earlier... this is for the photographers out there, not client consumption

Oh, I see. I guess I misunderstood when you posted the graphic then said it's a nice blurb and its your job to make the customer realize what they're really paying for.

All true and but a nice little blurb as it captures the essence of the job. The customer may not ever care but it's your job to make them realize why you're the better option than the Craigslist photog (if this is what you want to do for a living).

Just because it's true doesn't mean you say this to a customer. Think this has gone right over your head.

 

[Pookie]

I'm reminded of a famous study conducted under the guidance of the French sociologist Pierre Bourdieu, "Photography – A Middle-brow Art," conducted in the 1960s.

Bourdieu and his colleagues studied enthusiasts, artist-photographers and professional photographers. One of the things they observed among the professional photographers was an obsession with the profession being degraded and diluted by new technologies which made it much easier for people to enter the profession without the years of training that the then-older generation of photographers had to endure.

I guess the more things change, the more they stay the same.

Same as any other profession and history...

 

[Pookie]

I was thinking $600 for wedding pictures sounded high, but then again I got married in a courthouse during the judges lunch break and I tipped the court reporter to snap a cell phone pic...

Actually it is, relatively speaking, compared to what editorial typically pays (if at all, these days). I still have clients who seem to think they're being generous when they offer $350-400 per day.
Commercial work pays little better. I'll put in long days of 10 or 12 hours, sometimes 14 if need be, bring along an assistant and a few hundred pounds of lighting and grip gear, yet there's the expectation that anything over a thousand is way too much.
In my book, wedding and portrait guys have it easy.

600 high : Not sure where you work but 4-5k is pretty standard for qualified wedding photographers in a church with 200-300 guests. With a wedding there are assistants and second shooters, I haven't worked solo in...well never. A wedding isn't done in 10 minutes, often a 10+ hour day (pre, during, reception, etc). Take a look at WIPA and tell me 600 is high. I'll take commerical over weddings any day of the week and I do.

 

[neuroanatomist]

Just as I said earlier... this is for the photographers out there, not client consumption

Oh, I see. I guess I misunderstood when you posted the graphic then said it's a nice blurb and its your job to make the customer realize what they're really paying for.

All true and but a nice little blurb as it captures the essence of the job. The customer may not ever care but it's your job to make them realize why you're the better option than the Craigslist photog (if this is what you want to do for a living).

Just because it's true doesn't mean you say this to a customer. Think this has gone right over your head.

Sure, that's what happened. :