How soon should Canon update the 7D Mark II

[Don Haines]

A test unit comes very late in the piece - that's what is shipped off to "the select few." At that point it is a done deal.

I think we're using our terminology differently: when a new component is developed it's probably first bench-tested. Then it's put in whatever current body will accept it to see how it does in the real-world. To me that's a test unit. A prototype, to me, is a test unit that is mostly new components, and uses existing components only where new components are not yet available. The "select few" would receive prototypes, not early test units. Maybe this industry has different terminology. My basic point is that R&D occurs continuously, so you can't really say that the next gen product was cancelled unless significant movement toward production had occurred.

I don't know about that. I more or less get the distinct impression that there are "teams" that are responsible for products. e.g there is a "5D team" or a "1DX team" or a "xxD team." Thus the spacing in terms of time and serialization of product releases. So when the 5D team finishes working on the 5DIII and it becomes ready for productization, they start work on the 5DIV (which is also to say that the 5DV planning has likely already started.) Components such as the CPU and sensor would likely come into the cycle from independent sources.

You are right about the teams. I was told that each "line" has multiple teams (concept, hardware design, early integration, bench testing, software, etc) and before a product is released, they have already put in at least a year or two on it's successor. In other words, once the hardware design people finished their design on the 7D2, they would start working on the 7D3 hardware design, despite the 7D2 still being a couple years from release.....

 

[Orangutan]

You are right about the teams. I was told that each "line" has multiple teams (concept, hardware design, early integration, bench testing, software, etc) and before a product is released, they have already put in at least a year or two on it's successor. In other words, once the hardware design people finished their design on the 7D2, they would start working on the 7D3 hardware design, despite the 7D2 still being a couple years from release.....

It would not surprise me if there are integration teams, but I'd be amazed if there are separate sensor development teams, separate firmware coding teams, etc.

 

[Don Haines]

You are right about the teams. I was told that each "line" has multiple teams (concept, hardware design, early integration, bench testing, software, etc) and before a product is released, they have already put in at least a year or two on it's successor. In other words, once the hardware design people finished their design on the 7D2, they would start working on the 7D3 hardware design, despite the 7D2 still being a couple years from release.....

It would not surprise me if there are integration teams, but I'd be amazed if there are separate sensor development teams, separate firmware coding teams, etc.

I expect that they would have a "library of code" from which to draw from but since they want to optimize the crap out of each system and they all have different system boards, the final product (in terms of firmware) is going to require a dedicated group to do that.

definitely a library of code.... When the 7D2 came out with anti-flicker, every Canon DSLR afterwards had the feature.... undoubtedly a standard block of code to be inserted.....

As well, various techs/engineers will have their specialty. For example, they might have one or two people who are the shutter gurus....and they might work on multiple projects. Very different work from the user interface people....

It is probably a matrix of teams and projects, with each team doing their thing on the appropriate project at the appropriate time...

 

[Orangutan]

You are right about the teams. I was told that each "line" has multiple teams (concept, hardware design, early integration, bench testing, software, etc) and before a product is released, they have already put in at least a year or two on it's successor. In other words, once the hardware design people finished their design on the 7D2, they would start working on the 7D3 hardware design, despite the 7D2 still being a couple years from release.....

It would not surprise me if there are integration teams, but I'd be amazed if there are separate sensor development teams, separate firmware coding teams, etc.

I expect that they would have a "library of code" from which to draw from but since they want to optimize the crap out of each system and they all have different system boards, the final product (in terms of firmware) is going to require a dedicated group to do that.

definitely a library of code.... When the 7D2 came out with anti-flicker, every Canon DSLR afterwards had the feature.... undoubtedly a standard block of code to be inserted.....

As well, various techs/engineers will have their specialty. For example, they might have one or two people who are the shutter gurus....and they might work on multiple projects. Very different work from the user interface people....

It is probably a matrix of teams and projects, with each team doing their thing on the appropriate project at the appropriate time...

But there would not be a 7D3 team that does everything for that particular model.

 

[tomscott]

The 7D MKII gets a lot of bad rep by a lot of people that don't use them. I have taken mine along with a 5DMkIII half way round the world shooting in some of the most inhospitable places on earth.

I love the camera it performs and performs and performs. My 5DMKIII feels archaic in comparison and the 7Ds sensor has so much better colour noise control which is a big deal and so little banding! I'm comfortable pushing it up to 4000iso and its AF system is incredible, stick a 100-400MKII on it and it's fantastic even with a 1.4x.

I wish it had the extra F8 points available but from what I've seen the 7DMKIIs AF system is more accurate and consistent than the 80D. I've seen all these threads about poor AF and mine is bang on. I would say I only got 10% OOF images while shooting for 2 months across Africa this year.

A camera is more than a spec sheet and if it performs so what if it doesn't beat the competition if it fits your need then use it. They are already cheap I bought mine in September last year for £800 bargain.

 

[j-nord]

I agree the 7Dii has some competition now and Canon should release a 7Diii sooner than later, probably by end of next year or maybe early 2018. I think I'd have a tough time picking between the 7Dii and 80D right now, specifically for wildlife and also for general purpose. The mpix/DR/IQ/more f8 AF/price are all very attractive on the 80D as compared to the 7Dii. Certainly a big fps boost with the 7Dii over the 80D however, 7fps is still a big jump over my 6D's 4.5fps. If you have a good/later copy of the 7Dii then that is the obvious choice for a lot of BIF, if you don't shoot a ton of BIF, the 80D seems more attractive for many reasons. I think the cheaper 80D can/will steal a lot of sales from the 7Dii.

 

[RGF]

I'm less interested in when they upgrade the 7Dii and more interested in what they will incorporate.

Like Don Haines said, let the upgrade happen when it does and let the technology warrants the update.

From my personal experience, the 7Dii is an overall success but a failure on smaller levels. Poor copy variance, overstated performance and perhaps not the architecture to back up the desired delivery.

What I want more than anything else in a 7Dii:
* BIG battery to drive the lenses faster and just plain old better
* Dedicated chipset for ITR, ala the 1DX

Charge me $2500 for what I ask for above but give me a camera that delivers what the expectation is.

Agree that better camera would be worth the extra $.

Perhaps 1Dx focusing could be included.

Also better high ISO but that may be challenge for Canon.

 

[ashmadux]

Canon could pump out a quick update that would be mostly worthwhile, but I would probably still feel like the product as a whole is somewhat lacking.

The 7D2 as we have it today is actually somewhat gimped because it doesn't have wi-fi or a touchscreen. Canon could just shove that and their new chip in it, but that would probably still feel half-baked to a lot of people.

The market as a whole is still waiting for solid 4K recording in a consumer level device, everything out there today has downsides of some sort, all Canon has to do is get one really good implementation of 4K recording on one of their cameras and it will be a hit. Of course the 7D3 would be the natural choice.

I'm also not convinced that they're getting as much performance out of the new chips as they should, it'll probably be a few more years before we see any significant gains out of it. The 80D basically gets you the same IQ as before, with a little extra low ISO DR, pretty underwhelming.
We've seen that Sony and Nikon can get cleaner images out of this sort of tech, I have to assume Canon will improve IQ in the next few years. They should wait until the second or third generation of this sensor before putting one in the 7D.
Put another way, I'm not confident that they can match the D500 right now, it'll take a year or two to accomplish that.

Nikon's bluetooth connection app sounds fantastic, I would love to see something similar. As has been discussed many times, Canon needs to make a seamless process to get pictures off the camera and onto your machine of choice.

The 7d 2 is matched only by the 6d in terms of being the absolute weakest of canon launches in recent memory (excluding the M1/3).

The lack of excitement in reviews was sad. The image quality from my tester was just garbage....yeah, garbage....night photography tests had such limited dr, i almost couldn't believe it. No touchscreen, just stupid. The 7d2= no love from this shooter. Yuck.

At this point, canon could screw up with weak launches for the next 2 years...ill keep on trucking my my fantabulous 5d3. Omg I luv that camera.


PS- Did I mention i love my 5d3?

 

[LSXPhotog]

I love my 7D2 and my original 7D. I will likely upgrade to the 7D3 when it comes out, but I feel everyone is freaking out about the D500 and need to just relax. When the 7D came out, it destroyed the Nikon equivalents. Then the 7D2 came out of nowhere with giant leaps forward and Nikon was still sleeping. They wait 6.5 years and leapfrog the Canon and everyone goes nuts...

My 7D2 is great and the 70-200 or 100-400mm lenses are stellar on them...that hasn't changed. The next generation will offer a new sensor and an even better AF system. I don't think it needs to arrive before a new 6D or 5D....or EOS M, though.

 

[j-nord]

I don't think it needs to arrive before a new 6D or 5D....or EOS M, though.

We should see all those new cameras released by this time next year. Maybe we'll see a 7Diii for Photokina 2017 but probably no earlier.

I think the 7Dii could definitely use a sensor upgrade more than anything. Right now the 80D seems like a more attractive option even for someone who primarily wants to do wildlife (with the exception of doing mostly BIF).

 

[Terry1946]

The fundamental requirement of any camera, regardless of gimmicks such as wifi, gps, and articulating screens is image quality. Unfortunately, at the present time, the 7DMk2 trails behind the D500 quite significantly.
This situation has to be addressed quickly otherwise Canon will lose out, not only with new customers, but also existing Canon users who want the best results for this type of camera.
If Canon do not address this problem sooner rather than later they may well lose customers, and also existing Canon users who, having made the change, will not return.

 

[AdamBotond]

The fundamental requirement of any camera, regardless of gimmicks such as wifi, gps, and articulating screens is image quality. Unfortunately, at the present time, the 7DMk2 trails behind the D500 quite significantly.
This situation has to be addressed quickly otherwise Canon will lose out, not only with new customers, but also existing Canon users who want the best results for this type of camera.
If Canon do not address this problem sooner rather than later they may well lose customers, and also existing Canon users who, having made the change, will not return.

While I don't see large number of Canon users jumping ship to Nikon just for the fact that D500 is now more appealing than any other APSC camera, I do agree that 7DII needs a replacement. The sooner the better, but I don't expect it before late 2017, unfortunately. IQ is only one of the few things that 7D successor will need to improve upon. AF issues, DR will hopefully be solved, as well. New 80D looks promising in DR and IQ and 7D successor will certainly incorporate that advanced tech.

 

[unfocused]

Maybe we'll see a 7Diii for Photokina 2017 but probably no earlier.

Photokina is every other year.

 

[tron]

Canon could pump out a quick update that would be mostly worthwhile, but I would probably still feel like the product as a whole is somewhat lacking.

The 7D2 as we have it today is actually somewhat gimped because it doesn't have wi-fi or a touchscreen. Canon could just shove that and their new chip in it, but that would probably still feel half-baked to a lot of people.

The market as a whole is still waiting for solid 4K recording in a consumer level device, everything out there today has downsides of some sort, all Canon has to do is get one really good implementation of 4K recording on one of their cameras and it will be a hit. Of course the 7D3 would be the natural choice.

I'm also not convinced that they're getting as much performance out of the new chips as they should, it'll probably be a few more years before we see any significant gains out of it. The 80D basically gets you the same IQ as before, with a little extra low ISO DR, pretty underwhelming.
We've seen that Sony and Nikon can get cleaner images out of this sort of tech, I have to assume Canon will improve IQ in the next few years. They should wait until the second or third generation of this sensor before putting one in the 7D.
Put another way, I'm not confident that they can match the D500 right now, it'll take a year or two to accomplish that.

Nikon's bluetooth connection app sounds fantastic, I would love to see something similar. As has been discussed many times, Canon needs to make a seamless process to get pictures off the camera and onto your machine of choice.

The 7d 2 is matched only by the 6d in terms of being the absolute weakest of canon launches in recent memory (excluding the M1/3).

The lack of excitement in reviews was sad. The image quality from my tester was just garbage....yeah, garbage....night photography tests had such limited dr, i almost couldn't believe it. No touchscreen, just stupid. The 7d2= no love from this shooter. Yuck.

At this point, canon could screw up with weak launches for the next 2 years...ill keep on trucking my my fantabulous 5d3. Omg I luv that camera.


PS- Did I mention i love my 5d3?

I do love my 2 5d3 cameras but my 7d2 too. It is not a night camera. In my opinion this was a wrong test. You have to know when to use it. I use it ONLY when I am FL limited (and I do own some white lenses) and ONLY when there is ample of light. In these situations it shines. In everything else not so much.

 

[pwp]

The 7D MKII gets a lot of bad rep by a lot of people that don't use them....

+1... so right, as is so often the case. AKA armchair critics.

My 7DII continues to astound me with the incredible AF system and great feature set. It comfortably outperforms my retired 1D MkIV in all aspects except when pushing past 3200 iso. A touch of NR in Lr balances the equation.

Some describe it as a mini 1DX. I wouldn't go quite that far but for the money it's great value. Just like any working tool at any price point, learn and be aware of it's strengths and limitations and get to work. 8)

I wouldn't be holding my breath for a 7D MkIII for a good few years yet.

-pw

 

[eosuser1234]

Lets not forget the mirrorless cameras we are supposed to be surprised about APS-C and Fullframe.

Canon 7dm3 probably not until 2018.

 

[Michael Clark]

I don't think it needs to arrive before a new 6D or 5D....or EOS M, though.

We should see all those new cameras released by this time next year. Maybe we'll see a 7Diii for Photokina 2017 but probably no earlier.

I think the 7Dii could definitely use a sensor upgrade more than anything. Right now the 80D seems like a more attractive option even for someone who primarily wants to do wildlife (with the exception of doing mostly BIF).

Photokina only happens in even numbered years. There is no Photokina 2017.

 

[Mikehit]

I think they will release an update when they have a genuine upgrade rather than 'another bit of functionality' and that is pretty much a moveable feast because not only do they have to bring the new features in but make sure they work and from what I heard at the time, it was the final part that led to a 6-month delay in release of the MkII version.
If they add a second processor for the AF that would bring it remarkably close to the 1DXII. But a better battery and power management may be a good half way house. The other option is a sensor that has no more MP but has the low light performance of the 1DxII.

 

[Michael Clark]

Canon could pump out a quick update that would be mostly worthwhile, but I would probably still feel like the product as a whole is somewhat lacking.

The 7D2 as we have it today is actually somewhat gimped because it doesn't have wi-fi or a touchscreen. Canon could just shove that and their new chip in it, but that would probably still feel half-baked to a lot of people.

The market as a whole is still waiting for solid 4K recording in a consumer level device, everything out there today has downsides of some sort, all Canon has to do is get one really good implementation of 4K recording on one of their cameras and it will be a hit. Of course the 7D3 would be the natural choice.

I'm also not convinced that they're getting as much performance out of the new chips as they should, it'll probably be a few more years before we see any significant gains out of it. The 80D basically gets you the same IQ as before, with a little extra low ISO DR, pretty underwhelming.
We've seen that Sony and Nikon can get cleaner images out of this sort of tech, I have to assume Canon will improve IQ in the next few years. They should wait until the second or third generation of this sensor before putting one in the 7D.
Put another way, I'm not confident that they can match the D500 right now, it'll take a year or two to accomplish that.

Nikon's bluetooth connection app sounds fantastic, I would love to see something similar. As has been discussed many times, Canon needs to make a seamless process to get pictures off the camera and onto your machine of choice.

The 7d 2 is matched only by the 6d in terms of being the absolute weakest of canon launches in recent memory (excluding the M1/3).

The lack of excitement in reviews was sad. The image quality from my tester was just garbage....yeah, garbage....night photography tests had such limited dr, i almost couldn't believe it. No touchscreen, just stupid. The 7d2= no love from this shooter. Yuck.

At this point, canon could screw up with weak launches for the next 2 years...ill keep on trucking my my fantabulous 5d3. Omg I luv that camera.


PS- Did I mention i love my 5d3?

I do love my 2 5d3 cameras but my 7d2 too. It is not a night camera. In my opinion this was a wrong test. You have to know when to use it. I use it ONLY when I am FL limited (and I do own some white lenses) and ONLY when there is ample of light. In these situations it shines. In everything else not so much.

Yep. They are two different tools for two different uses. Both are very good when used for what they are designed to do. I would argue, though, that the 7DII can be a night camera in certain circumstances.

Under flickering stadium light the 7DII kicks the 5DIII's behind in terms of keeper ratio. The 5DIII has maybe a 10% edge over the 7DII in terms of AF consistency (maybe 90% to 80%). But what good is that when 60-70% of the shots from the 5DIII are either unusable or a pain to work in post because of the crazy color shift from one side of the frame to the other? Even the 1D X (but not the 1D XII) suffers in that respect.

Because the shutter always hits the light at their peak you can also shoot 2/3 to one full stop faster than with a camera that doesn't offer flicker reduction. In places where I shoot 1/500 @ f/2.8 and ISO 2500 I can use 1/1000 @ f/2.8 and ISO 2500 with the 7DII. That's huge for night sports! The exposure and color are very consistent in every frame and reduces or even totally eliminates the need to color correct each frame independently.

 

[xps]

Some of the members of our local photoclub do own the 7DII, and we recogniced, that there is a wide spread of image quality and AF performance. We took some studio shots and compared the images. And there is really a wide range of quality difference. I was not in luck, mine has an impaired IQ and an unstable AF. Sometime sharp, most times not.... Sent three times to Canon, got three times back with no improvement. Nothing they can do. I should sell m,ine and buy another one. Maybe then I have better luck.

So, I would like to see an upgade earlier. But I know this will not happen. The 7DII sells quite well, when I believe the salesnumbers from an bigger store in Germany. So, There is no need to hurry for Canon. Yes, Canon is technologically behind its peers (IQ & DR, AF performance), but the customer semms not to care about that.

Canon can do better. Just look at the 80D, that is in most cases practically better than my 7DII. Some features are less highlighted (e.g. 27 AF points at f8), but the improvement we see n the 80D are definitely not small.

note: I hope the 5DIV will be a game changer, otherwise the A9 will be mine.