IBIS is likely coming to the EOS M lineup [CR2]

Keith_Reeder

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Feb 8, 2014
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That is absolutely true. But I think there is a part aimed at enthusiasts too.

The 32 mm 1.4 and M6 II releases strike me as Canon emphasising that EF-M can also deliver top end quality. The way they launched it, in parallel to the 90D, they did market the M6 II as somewhat of a '90D light'. I think if and when the M5 successor is coming, they'll expand upon that aspect.
Yep.

There's no question that the M6 Mk II can be a serious little camera in the right circumstances - I'm very impressed by its sensor, and it has some properly useful performance tricks up its sleeve which belie its outwardly modest appearance - and I did indeed buy mine with the thought that it was a 90D in a smaller package (aware of its relative ergonomic limitations, of course).
 

Michael Clark

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Apr 5, 2016
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That is absolutely true. But I think there is a part aimed at enthusiasts too.

The 32 mm 1.4 and M6 II releases strike me as Canon emphasising that EF-M can also deliver top end quality. The way they launched it, in parallel to the 90D, they did market the M6 II as somewhat of a '90D light'. I think if and when the M5 successor is coming, they'll expand upon that aspect.

There is no upgrade path the RF, but there still should be an upgrade path within the system towards slightly higher end bodies and lenses. And the number may not be substantial, but there are users who buy the M system as a small compliment to their FF ILC. And as long as the system has a good standing with enthusiasts, they can push more casual people around them into EF-M by way of word of mouth.

The thing I wonder the most about is if Canon will dare to go outside of their lens diameter restriction. Maybe to release a set of slightly wider lenses that are marketed like 'crop L lenses'. They probably won't and focus on bringing down the cost of FF bodies instead. But at this point things are changing, and I don't think we have been given a proper impression of where Canon is planning to go with the future.

My thoughts exactly. I consider myself an enthusiast and really enjoy the M system. A few years ago I left Canon for Fuji and just recently came back to Canon and the M system. At the time I felt that mirrorless was going nowhere with Canon. Now they've shown me that they are much more serious and now I feel (and hope) that Canon is going to expand on the system to keep their existing base and grow it as well.

Just because a few enthusiasts buy them does not mean Canon is aiming the M system at them.

Canon is squarely targeting the non-enthusiast buyer with every design decision they make for the entire system. Making the EF-M system compatible with EF and EF-S lenses via adapter was not about easing the transition to M for enthusiasts and professionals, it was about easing the transition for Rebel owners with a couple of EF-S lenses.
 

Michael Clark

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Canon would disagree, just check https://www.canon.co.uk/cameras/eos-m5/ or https://www.canon.com.au/cameras/eos-m5 or https://www.usa.canon.com/internet/...ameras/mirrorless/eos-m5-ef-m-18-150mm-is-stm

It is aimed at enthusiasts. Also it's obvious just by looking at the feature set: interchangeable lenses, raw shooting, advanced menus, advanced external ports.
That's aimed at those who might fancy themselves as enthusiasts but really aren't.

It's aimed at people who want to take pictures on their trip, not at people who want to take a trip in order to take pictures and explore the possibilities of their photographic skills. The former are not photographic enthusiasts, they are travel enthusiasts. The latter are photo enthusiasts.

"Whether you're navigating the tight alleys of an old European city or enjoying the view after a strenuous hike"

is a far cry from (the blurb in the same spot at the R5 page)

"It’s an ideal choice for a large range of photographic and cinematographic environments from weddings, portraits, sports, journalism, landscape, cinematography and more."
 

Michael Clark

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Apr 5, 2016
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It is aimed at enthusiasts. Also it's obvious just by looking at the feature set: interchangeable lenses, raw shooting, advanced menus, advanced external ports.
All things the 2000D, 4000D, etc. also offer. So now you are saying those are also enthusiast cameras? So basically anyone who wants to use anything more than a phone to take a photo is an enthusiast?
 
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Quarkcharmed

EOS 5DMkIV
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That's aimed at those who might fancy themselves as enthusiasts but really aren't.
I wonder if they agree they're not enthusiasts :)
People who depart from snapshots and learn some more advanced stuff about ISO, aperture, shutter speed, raw processing, and/or use external flash, and/or use an ILC camera for vlogging - I'd clearly call them enthusiasts. And the M series is clearly aimed at this category.

It's aimed at people who want to take pictures on their trip, not at people who want to take a trip in order to take pictures and explore the possibilities of their photographic skills. The former are not photographic enthusiasts, they are travel enthusiasts. The latter are photo enthusiasts.
So enthusiasm is defined by their ability to travel on dedicated photo trips?

is a far cry from (the blurb in the same spot at the R5 page)
So an enthusiast must buy an R5 or similar, and the M line isn't worthy? :)
 

Michael Clark

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So an enthusiast must buy an R5 or similar, and the M line isn't worthy? :)
No, an enthusiast can buy whatever they want. If they feel it is worthy for their purposes, more power to them.

But that's not the same thing as saying Canon is intentionally designing and marketing the EOS M series of cameras and lenses at the enthusiast market.

It's also not the same thing as Canon marketing the EOS M system to those who fancy themselves as "enthusiasts".

Just because Nissan makes commercials that show two ladies riding around in a Sentra that appears to be a higher performance machine than anything else on the road with them, does that make the Sentra a "car enthusiasts" car? No, it means Nissan wants to make non-enthusiast drivers think they are buying an enthusiast car when they buy a Sentra...
 
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Michael Clark

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Apr 5, 2016
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I wonder if they agree they're not enthusiasts :)
People who depart from snapshots and learn some more advanced stuff about ISO, aperture, shutter speed, raw processing, and/or use external flash, and/or use an ILC camera for vlogging - I'd clearly call them enthusiasts. And the M series is clearly aimed at this category.


So, by your definition, an enthusiast is now anyone who learns about ISO, Av, Tv, raw processing, etc.?


How about those who do those things only with their smartphone cameras?

Anyone who buys a smartphone based on the ability to save "raw" DNGs is now an enthusiast?

Anyone who buys a smartphone based on the ability to manually set Tv and ISO is now an enthusiast?

Anyone who buys an accessory that allows one to fire external flash in sync with a smartphone camera is now an enthusiast?

Anyone who uses a smartphone to vlog is now an enthusiast?

Tune in next time on Oprah when she says:

YOU'RE AN ENTHUSIAST! YOU'RE AN ENTHUSIAST! YOU'RE AN ENTHUSIAST!

EVERYONE IS AN ENTHUSIAST!!!!
 
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Baron_Karza

EOS RP
Feb 17, 2019
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215
The EOS M is a camera system for the masses, not for the photographic "elite."
No.

The M system is not for the masses.

Cell phone cameras are for the masses.

I know lot's of people who just a few years ago walked around with their T6i (and other entry level models) and now they never use it. Telling me their phone works just as good. They ask me "why do you have a camera? Cell phones are just as good now".

M is simply for anyone looking for something better than Cell phone quality and/or wanting to switch out lenses.
And they the choose it over FF because of cost and/or size.
 

Michael Clark

Now we see through a glass, darkly...
Apr 5, 2016
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No.

The M system is not for the masses.

Cell phone cameras are for the masses.

I know lot's of people who just a few years ago walked around with their T6i (and other entry level models) and now they never use it. Telling me their phone works just as good. They ask me "why do you have a camera? Cell phones are just as good now".

M is simply for anyone looking for something better than Cell phone quality and/or wanting to switch out lenses.
And they the choose it over FF because of cost and/or size.
You may not see a difference between someone who wants a single camera body and a lens or two that are compact, affordable, and easy to take along to social events, hikes, etc. that offers a bit more than a smartphone does and those who are interested in building a collection of multiple bodies and as many lenses as they can afford (or convince their spouse to allow them to buy) for use in a wide ranging body of specialized photographic pursuits.

Canon certainly sees a difference between designing and marketing camera systems to those two distinct groups of potential buyers. The EOS M system is Canon's answer to the former, who far outnumber the latter.
 

unfocused

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Actually there is evidence that Canon has had multiple recent leadership turnovers. And the "Market" has been telling Canon that they they need to reach feature parity with Sony if they want to be competitive and part of reaching feature parity is by adding IBIS.

There is no evidence either way whether Canon had the computing power needed to run IBIS and DPAF which is why I stated it was a possibility whereas you make it sound like Canon waited this long just because it would have been irrational to do so sooner. IMO Canon should have had IBIS long before this unless they were technically limited or had reliability concerns (which is also a form of technical limitation).




Thank you for this. It would be nice if more sites did a better job of actually covering industry news like this.

Earlier today I was just thinking that I hope Canon is not making a big mistake by apparently going all-in on mirrorless at the expense of DSLRs. I also hope they haven't made a big mistake in chasing the RF mount at the expense of the universal EF mount. There is a lot enthusiasm on this site (which is primarily composed of tech geeks) for the shiny new object called mirrorless. I'm guessing that the Canon leadership that is retiring includes many who were responsible for Canon's long march to market supremacy. I hope that this new generation of leaders doesn't squander everything that the previous generation built.
 

unfocused

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I'm trying to figure this out. It seems we now have at least two tiers of "enthusiasts."

Tier One would be comprised of people who have developed an interest in photography and are willing to invest somewhere around $1,000 to pursue that interest? Tier Two would be people with serious GAS issues who buy multiple cameras and multiple lenses and spend thousands of dollars on their hobby?

It seems to me that this is more of a continuum rather than a distinction. I don't know where the line is and I'm not sure when I crossed the line, but I'm pretty sure most people who end up in the "spending thousands" category got there through the gateway drug of one body and one lens. True not every recreational user becomes an addict, but a certain percentage do.

So, I'm trying to figure out what all this has to do with the discussion. If I understand correctly @Michael Clark seems to have a pretty narrow definition of the M line and is appalled at the idea that Canon might decide to offer a high-end "enthusiast" camera in the M line, when he believes that only the R line should be reserved for "enthusiasts." Am I close?

I'm squarely in the "I don't know what the heck Canon is doing these days" camp (which might be a camp of one). Canon might create a one-off APS-C body in the R line. Or, it might decide to keep things clean by reserving the R for full frame and the M for APS-C. I think I could make a pretty good case that drug-dealer Canon might get a lot more people addicted if they used the most popular mirrorless line on the planet (M) to entice people with a seductive top of the line M camera that would appeal of all tiers of enthusiasts.

But, heck if I know what their strategy might be.
 

SteveC

R5
Sep 3, 2019
1,205
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I'm squarely in the "I don't know what the heck Canon is doing these days" camp (which might be a camp of one).
I can assure you you're not the only one in that camp. Though you do seem to be among the very few who will admit, not just to themselves but to others, that they are in that camp.

In fact, there are dozens of people in that camp, here, who won't admit that they don't actually know what Canon is planning to do, so instead, in some cases, they put in post after post telling people they're wrong, but in the end all they have is the loudness of their own assertions.

They don't know any more than you or I do.
 

Baron_Karza

EOS RP
Feb 17, 2019
212
215
I can assure you you're not the only one in that camp. Though you do seem to be among the very few who will admit, not just to themselves but to others, that they are in that camp.

In fact, there are dozens of people in that camp, here, who won't admit that they don't actually know what Canon is planning to do, so instead, in some cases, they put in post after post telling people they're wrong, but in the end all they have is the loudness of their own assertions.

They don't know any more than you or I do.
I don't even know what I want to buy next!! R6 or future M w/IBIS...or both. CANON. TELL ME WHAT TO BUY!!!
 

Rocky

EOS R
Jul 30, 2010
932
44
There is another camp out here. People that likes to take picture and good at it. As they age, lugging 2 DLSR body with the lenses on a long tour become a chore. The eyesight also gets worse so they become less critical about the result. Then the later Ms' ( anything before the M5 are not acceptable due to slow AF) will be perfect for that group. With focal length from 11mm to 250mm. Even with slower zooms, it is more than enough for most people. As a system, it is much smaller and lighter. The result is acceptable as long as no large enlargements are made.
 

Keith_Reeder

I really don't mind offending trolls.
Feb 8, 2014
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They don't know any more than you or I do.
I'm firmly in the "I don't really care what Canon does next" camp.

What's the point of worrying about it and wasting your life away second-guessing them?
  • My current cameras never let me down;
  • Their files respond really well to conversion in my Raw converter of choice;
  • I don't subscribe to the "if I get a perfect new camera I'll instantly become a better photographer and my inability to expose an image properly won't matter any more..." fallacy; and
  • As you so rightly state, no bugger but Canon knows anyway.
So if Canon does pop something up that presses the right buttons, I'll take an interest. Otherwise, I've got more important things to worry about.
 
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ReflexVE

EOS M50
May 5, 2020
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I'm just going to point out that it's really a continuum between casual photographer to pro. I don't think there is a single bright line and people can wander back and forth from one space into the other depending on their skill level, where they are in life and what their priorities are.

If I was good enough to get paid, sure I'd be happy to get paid to get a nicer setup and go to beautiful locations to shoot beautiful people. Until then I'm happy to learn to take interesting shots around town and on trips.
 
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Quarkcharmed

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But that's not the same thing as saying Canon is intentionally designing and marketing the EOS M series of cameras and lenses at the enthusiast market.

It's also not the same thing as Canon marketing the EOS M system to those who fancy themselves as "enthusiasts".
But evidently, they are designing and marketing with enthusiasts in mind, especially the top M-series cameras.

So you're saying there's fake self-complacent enthusiasts and real enthusiasts whose demands are higher than any of the M cameras can offer?

So, by your definition, an enthusiast is now anyone who learns about ISO, Av, Tv, raw processing, etc.?
If it's not your trade and you learn all these things out of interest in photography, then yes, you're an enthusiast.

Anyone who buys a smartphone based on the ability to save "raw" DNGs is now an enthusiast?
If they actually use those DNGs and learn and use processing techniques, they are enthusiasts. Next step they may want some better quality and voila - there's Canon with its M line offerings for enthusiasts.

Enthusiasts are those who are... guess what... enthusiastic about the photography process.