Just for Jrista: 2014 Market Data

sarangiman said:
privatebydesign said:
We are talking about shadows, so sub 10% RGB values in Lightroom, your belief is that you cannot triple those numbers in a Canon file without seeing excessive noise and banding with current generation Canon sensors?

3-stop push is not 'tripling'. It's multiplying by 8. And a 6-stop push is multiplying by 64.

And, yes, since vignetting correction for 24/1.4 is 3 EV, and since I'm - on a number of occasions - noted visible noise/banding from just vignetting correction, yes, I do believe you can't push 3 EV without a noise cost for many lower tones.

Not in Lightrooms percentage scale it isn't. If I take an RGB value of 32 30 27 and lift it three stops I get 86 85 81, if I take an RGB value of 66 70 79 and lift it three stops I get 98 98 99 (no 99.9's ether), if I take 26 20 14 I get 81 72 60, all for an average of less than triple the value and that doesn't include the obviously nearly blown set.
 
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privatebydesign said:
Not in Lightrooms percentage scale it isn't. If I take an RGB value of 32 30 27 and lift it three stops I get 86 85 81, if I take an RGB value of 66 70 79 and lift it three stops I get 98 98 99 (no 99.9's ether), if I take 26 20 14 I get 81 72 60, all for an average of less than triple the value and that doesn't include the obviously nearly blown set.

I'm just saying that a stop is a doubling of light. 2^3 = 8.

So when you literally said 'triple those numbers'... that's incorrect. The percentages, I assume, are percentages of the 8-bit 'Melissa RGB' values. Don't quote me on that though.
 
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MIDTONE banding with gray fog and blue skies are where i first noticed problems with Canon images when I had my 5d2, ages ago.
Shadow pushing landscapes with every Digic 4 body showed me the FPN issues in shadows.
Quick testing of my 5d2 showed me that FPN was readily visible in smooth shades only 2 or 3 EV below metered middle if pushed only +1 stop.
I still maintain it was the most disappointing body I ever had, and possibly a lemon but... there were more of them out there like that.


I'm feeling somewhat vindicated by so many more of you, some who've previously argued against these very observations, corroborating this problem.
My only question is, WTH took so long for some users of same equipment to notice this?!? ???

EDIT: To answer PBD, you probably could push the 70D files by 3 stops and not be bothered by FPN but you'd still have plenty of shot nose to get rid of and that will eat some of the detail in NR software. the 7d2 might perform similarly. the 6D would get away with it in some shots, as will the 60D as I've done it for some shots with acceptable results. Other digic 4 bodies, not likely as capable. older digic 2 and 3 bodies would behave a bit like the 70D and allow a good push in many cases but would have even greater overall noise levels to deal with.
 
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sarangiman said:
privatebydesign said:
Not in Lightrooms percentage scale it isn't. If I take an RGB value of 32 30 27 and lift it three stops I get 86 85 81, if I take an RGB value of 66 70 79 and lift it three stops I get 98 98 99 (no 99.9's ether), if I take 26 20 14 I get 81 72 60, all for an average of less than triple the value and that doesn't include the obviously nearly blown set.

Dude, a stop is a doubling of light. 2^3 = 8. End of story.

So explain the RGB values I get.

If I had an eleven stop wedge 0% would be black and 100% would be white, 10%, wouldn't quite be black, 20% would be twice as bright as 10% and 30% would be twice as bright as 20% and be four times as bright as 10%.

Where am I going wrong?

P.S. Your "end of story" was quickly edited out :D
 
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Aglet said:
MIDTONE banding with gray fog and blue skies are where i first noticed problems with Canon images when I had my 5d2, ages ago.
Shadow pushing landscapes with every Digic 4 body showed me the FPN issues in shadows.
Quick testing of my 5d2 showed me that FPN was readily visible in smooth shades only 2 or 3 EV below metered middle if pushed only +1 stop.
I still maintain it was the most disappointing body I ever had, and possibly a lemon but... there were more of them out there like that.


I'm feeling somewhat vindicated by so many more of you, some who've previously argued against these very observations, corroborating this problem.
My only question is, WTH took so long for some users of same equipment to notice this?!? ???

Why, where is the corroboration?
 
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sarangiman said:
privatebydesign said:
Not in Lightrooms percentage scale it isn't. If I take an RGB value of 32 30 27 and lift it three stops I get 86 85 81, if I take an RGB value of 66 70 79 and lift it three stops I get 98 98 99 (no 99.9's ether), if I take 26 20 14 I get 81 72 60, all for an average of less than triple the value and that doesn't include the obviously nearly blown set.

I'm just saying that a stop is a doubling of light. 2^3 = 8.

So when you literally said 'triple those numbers'... that's incorrect. The percentages, I assume, are percentages of the 8-bit 'Melissa RGB' values. Don't quote me on that though.

Melissa isn't an 8 bit colour space. The LR "editing space" is a minimum of 16 bit and can work automatically in 32 bit too.
 
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privatebydesign said:
sarangiman said:
privatebydesign said:
Not in Lightrooms percentage scale it isn't. If I take an RGB value of 32 30 27 and lift it three stops I get 86 85 81, if I take an RGB value of 66 70 79 and lift it three stops I get 98 98 99 (no 99.9's ether), if I take 26 20 14 I get 81 72 60, all for an average of less than triple the value and that doesn't include the obviously nearly blown set.

I'm just saying that a stop is a doubling of light. 2^3 = 8.

So when you literally said 'triple those numbers'... that's incorrect. The percentages, I assume, are percentages of the 8-bit 'Melissa RGB' values. Don't quote me on that though.

Melissa isn't an 8 bit colour space. The LR "editing space" is a minimum of 16 bit and can work automatically in 32 bit too.

Right but I believe the histogram is based off of a mapping to sRGB output from the internal ProPhoto RGB (16-bit IIRC) space. So I'm not sure the percentages work out entirely predictably every time.

My point was that you're not literally 'tripling' the raw signals when you do +3 EV. You're multiplying them by 8.

This isn't very productive. If you do find out exactly what the percentages mean, though, please let us know.
 
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Aglet said:
EDIT: To answer PBD, you probably could push the 70D files by 3 stops and not be bothered by FPN but you'd still have plenty of shot nose to get rid of and that will eat some of the detail in NR software. the 7d2 might perform similarly. the 6D would get away with it in some shots, as will the 60D as I've done it for some shots with acceptable results. Other digic 4 bodies, not likely as capable. older digic 2 and 3 bodies would behave a bit like the 70D and allow a good push in many cases but would have even greater overall noise levels to deal with.

Did you mean 'read noise' instead of 'shot noise'? Even an ideal camera will be shot-noise limited ;)
 
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jrista said:
Aglet said:
MIDTONE banding with gray fog and blue skies are where i first noticed problems with Canon images when I had my 5d2, ages ago.
Shadow pushing landscapes with every Digic 4 body showed me the FPN issues in shadows.
Quick testing of my 5d2 showed me that FPN was readily visible in smooth shades only 2 or 3 EV below metered middle if pushed only +1 stop.
I still maintain it was the most disappointing body I ever had, and possibly a lemon but... there were more of them out there like that.


I'm feeling somewhat vindicated by so many more of you, some who've previously argued against these very observations, corroborating this problem.
My only question is, WTH took so long for some users of same equipment to notice this?!? ???

Well, I'd noticed the banding with the 7D a long time ago. I also acknowledged it a long time ago, in many posts. The 7D banding is easier to clean up, since it is so extremely regular (they span eight pixels, the stride of the ADC channels). The 5D III banding is different. It's not as pronounced, per-se, but it is still there...and it does NOT clean up well with Topaz DeNoise 5. I only got the 5D III maybe four or five months ago? So, it's been only relatively recently that I got enough personal, first-hand time with the 5D III to fully realize how frustrating its banding issues are. That may account for why it "took me so long", as you put it. ;P

I am happy with the 5D III at higher ISO, however it has been rather disappointing for me at lower ISOs. I thought it would be better...and it simply isn't. ISO 400 with BIF against a blue sky can sometimes be really ugly at times. I don't feel that it has much in the way of shadow pushing at all. If your very careful, use heavy GND to compress contrast on-scene, ETTR like mad (which is also another weak spot of the 5D III...it burns highlights), then you might not actually have to lift a stop. The shadow falloff still isn;t good, though....you can see the poor quality of the shadows even without pushing. The only real remedy there is to crush the blacks a bit...but I've never been a big fan of stark contrast in landscapes...

So yeah. I really do notice the issue now...it's depressing.

Well, I'm sure many have noticed it, and just worked around it.

I myself noticed it years and years back, actually when the 5D Mark II was first released. But I usually got eaten alive when I mentioned it (not just here, in fact). Even by people like jrista some 2+ years ago, sadly! Ironically, jrista, one of your counter-arguments back then was something about more highlight headroom with Canon files. Which just isn't the case - most of these sensors map the data off the sensor in a linear fashion, so there should be no difference between brands, cameras, etc. Save for maybe the D810 at ISO 64, where DxO full SNR curves suggest non-linearity - which'd essentially mean that highlights that 'look' clipped in fact aren't b/c they've been rolled off. Honestly, I'm suspicious about that... actual non-linearity at the sensor level is kind of a holy grail, so I'd expect Sony or Nikon or DxO or someone to be ranting mad about that if they'd actually achieved it.

But anyway your comment years ago about highlight headroom and my D800/5D3 comparison being bull is particularly ironic now in light of you mentioning the highlights burn easily ;) Which, btw, I'm not so sure is entirely, quantitatively, accurate... again, since these systems map the data linearly. Unless there's some difference in (non-)linearity of charge build-up in the photodiodes, but unless you've really done some thorough side-by-sides, I wouldn't go around claiming one system has more highlight headroom than another.
 
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jrista said:
I used to think that cameras handled highlights differently. I actually still think that to a small degree, they do, and in some ways I think Canon cameras do handle highlights better. I definitely no longer think that there is nearly as much headroom in the highlights as reported by the camera itself as I used to think, though.

When I say the 5D III burns highlights, I mean that highlights go from "good", with nicely separated tones, to "poor", where things are all just blended together mush, and often a near-blown-white creamy color...VERY FAST. There isn't any room up there...you go from good clean highlights that are eminently recoverable, to not fully blown, but not really usable either, in a heartbeat. There are only a few levels at the upper end of the linear range where your highlights aren't blown, but where they seem to bleed into each other across color channels. When I first got my 5D III, I ETTRed with it the same way I did with the 7D, and it simply did not handle that the same way.

That's different from the 7D. The 7D seems to have a lot of highlight headroom. I've overexposed shots with the 7D by a couple of stops, and was able to recover quite nicely in the end, without any actually blown highlights. I could ETTR quite far with my 7D, and sometimes I'd clip highlights, but it wasn't that often that they became an unusable creamy-white blur before that point.

Now, this is based off of what the camera reports. I've long been an ETTR fiend...it's kind of the only way to use Canon cameras. If you don't push the exposures in-camera, your losing a lot of usable DR, because the read noise is higher than with Exmor sensors. The way the 7D reports the highlight clipping point, you can still expose for about a stop or so before you actually clip the highlights in RAW. I guess it's just a difference in how Canon generates the JPEGS, but I find that I barely have the ability to expose a third to two-thirds of a stop with the 5D III before the highlights get to the point of unusability, and usually at that point they clip as well. Same meter, in both cameras...so it has to be a difference in how the JPEGs are generated.

Anyway, even when shooting in manual mode, you ultimately determine your exposures based on the in-camera histograms (generated from JPEG), in-camera highlight warning (generated from JPEG), and in-viewfinder metered/exposure compensation scale. The scale seems to be based directly off the meter, however you never quite know how the tones will distribute in the image until it's taken. So in the end, you base the "properness" of your exposure off the in-camera histogram. That histogram, at least base off of my own experience with my own 5D III, is unforgiving of highlight overexposure. When you do ETTR...the 5D III tends to "burn" the highlights...since there really isn't much room there.

I suspect the 5D III was updated to simply be more accurate. That's a good thing, but when you have spent years with a particular camera that behaved a particular way, you tend to base your experiences off of the thing you have the most experience with. My 7D, being quite forgiving with highlights, is my reference point.

My limited experience with the D800 seems to indicate much the same. It seems their highlights just kind of ride up to the top, then suddenly they clip. There isn't the same kind of headroom as the 7D. Again, that's probably just the camera being more accurate, when it tells you the highlights are clipped, it usually really means it. The difference with the D800 is...you simply don't NEED to ETTR. Not nearly like you do with Canon cameras. You still can, but it's just not a necessity. Two years ago, I'd never done more than hold a D800 for a few minutes in a store, so, I did not have any real depth of understanding about how it's data is really distributed. I also had delusions about how good the 5D III was...truly, delusions. :P It's really NOT as good as thought it was back then, not from a low ISO DR standpoint anyway.

I base the 'properness' by taking a lot of shots at different exposures and then choosing the one just short of clipping in important channels such that even recovery won't help. But for actual DR tests, I also bracket and choose the file that's is just short of clipping (a certain threshold number of) green channels. Then work backward to where SNR hits a threshold.

Anyway, what it *seems* you're saying from all this is that back then you had a whole bunch of delusions, limited experience with the other system (D800), and so therefore took all of this to somehow mean you could call my entire controlled comparison, using matched shutter speed and aperture, between the 5D3 and the D800, and I quote: 'ABSOLUTE BULL PPL!'.

Yes, that particular scene didn't have enough DR to demonstrate the difference artistically, but it didn't take anything away from the point (well, besides a little beauty). And anyone who is capable of understanding the interplay of read and shot noise in determining SNR of tones really shouldn't have gone off on that rant. So honestly at that point I was just confused.

Which is why I left, especially after more guys joined (or used) your bandwagon - guys I thought we'd come to have an understanding with. Lot of the same forum behaviors still exist, years later. Seems you're more reasonable now, in most regards? :)
 
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jrista said:
I used to think that cameras handled highlights differently. I actually still think that to a small degree, they do, and in some ways I think Canon cameras do handle highlights better.........


.......The 7D seems to have a lot of highlight headroom. I've overexposed shots with the 7D by a couple of stops, and was able to recover quite nicely in the end, without any actually blown highlights. I could ETTR quite far with my 7D, and sometimes I'd clip highlights, but it wasn't that often that they became an unusable creamy-white blur before that point.



My limited experience with the D800 seems to indicate much the same. It seems their highlights just kind of ride up to the top, then suddenly they clip. There isn't the same kind of headroom as the 7D..............


I have said a similar thing for years, well the overriding impression that Canon files have more highlight latitude than Nikon files do, and have been mercilessly lambasted for it. Sensor capture data might be linear, but no rendered version is unless it is gamma 1.0 and it looks like crap and, as you point out, our only point of reference is the jpeg derived histogram which does have a gamma curve applied. There is a disconnect from histogram to processing capability, I don't know what causes it but it is there.

Funny how when we actually start looking at images we see the stuff that people who only look at images have been seeing and saying for years.

neuroanatomist said:
sarangiman said:
Seems you're more reasonable now, in most regards? :)

Isn't it amazing how people are reasonable when they agree with you? ::)

It is, again I am sure there are many psychological studies as to why.

Kind of like my "D800 image" which most agreed couldn't be done with a Canon sensor.........

jrista said:
privatebydesign said:
"I'm sorry; not seeing any color noise, posterization, and banding. Not really seeing much of a noise cost at all to shooting ISO 100."

I think we should all be able to agree that there is also no color noise, posterization, or banding in my "real world" 100% crop as well, though that does only have an approximately three+ stop lift.

Agreed. Which was one of my points a few days ago...you don't necessarily need to be doing significant shadow lifting to realize the benefits of increased DR. Even if you barely lift at all, the detail in the shadows is wonderful, and the shadow falloff is really clean and smooth.

..........turned out I "mislabeled" it, it is a single Canon image from a 1Ds MkIII, a seven year old Canon sensor processed very simply in LR, no plugins, no PS, nothing fancy at all. Again, like I said a few days ago, psychology, Neuro pointed out that there have been many studies that prove we see (experience) what we expect to see. Maybe we will start to see blotchiness, noise, banding etc in the crop now, or we will say it isn't that extreme a lift, or any other number of pseudo arguments that truthfully can't hold water.

People who do what they are doing can get vastly better results from the same equipment as those that don't. That is not a personal insult, if my life depended on it i could not shoot astro like Jrista, it is a truthful observation and probably accounts for the some of the wildly different opinions shown here. I thought the 7D was a noise machine after a few hours with it, seems people now generally put the 7D in the "great camera but a noise machine" category.

To be sure, I would not say no to more DR, but I don't find my current abilities overly restricted by the DR my 2007 camera has, and I have pretty blatantly proven several very vocal DR advocates opinions and observations to be not very robust*.

* Cut me some slack here, that was very diplomatic, I have not set out to hurt, embarrass, insult or ridicule anybody. I did want to know if people can actually recognize stuff they claim is not possible at the 100% level, and I did do that.
 
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jrista said:
Fair game. However, all you've done is proven that a camera that is not DR limited won't have shadow problems. Of course it won't. No one denies that. Your other image demonstrates the problem with having less DR perfectly, though. What if you had to expose that way to preserve highlights somewhere else in the image? You wouldn't have had the option to preserve shadows with ETTR, and you would have been stuck with that heavily banded shadow noise.

I still challenge you...take that same photo with a D810, with the same exposure as your first example where heavy banding noise showed up in the shadows. Compare the D810 without ETTR to your 2007 camera with ETTR. Do the same with a 5D III. You can play tricks all day long, but all you've proven is that the scene you photographed wasn't DR limited, so exposing for the shadows was an option. That doesn't change any of the facts. Canon DR hasn't changed since 2007. You used a 1Ds III. I use a 5D III. The large difference in generations there, which is about five years...sadly...hasn't really changed a thing as far as dynamic range goes. Even the 6D, which has more DR thanks to a larger full well capacity, still has the same general shadow noise.

I could produce the same kind of example as you have...but that doesn't prove anything about how "good" or "not limited" Canon DR is. It was a contrived scenario. Try doing it for real, with an actual D810 or A7r, in a scene that is actually DR-limiting for a Canon camera (pick any Canon camera, it doesn't matter...it could be eight years old or one year old...they all have roughly the same read noise and roughly the same DR at ISO 100). Anyone can take photos of lower DR scenes with any camera all day long, and there will be few differences between the results. No one is arguing that you need more DR for such a use case.

What we are arguing is, if you DON'T have more DR in your camera, then when you DO need it...you are simply SOL.

No, what I proved is Canon shadows can be lifted +100 in LR with no ill effects, the DR limited argument is misdirection, nobody has ever argued that if the scene contains more DR than the sensor can capture then it can magically capture it, and when I get more DR I will use it, but having what I have isn't limiting me the way some of you say it should be.

The point was, you and others said what I did couldn't be done, despite the fact that many people have said it can, I just illustrated that it could. Am I proud of myself? No, that isn't who I am, but the cacophony of the DR advocates has become unbearable, your point was made (long ago), the people that don't see it as as big a deal all actually agree with you, more DR will be nice, we just disagree on the importance and the impact of the current tech on our output and the editing latitude we currently have.

On another level, we see what we want and expect to see, you say you are starting to see disappointing limitations with the 5D MkIII six months in, send me a couple of RAW files and I'll process them differently to you and the results could well be different.

How is a weekend with a Sony and a Metabones going to stack up? Well you already expect to hate the hassle but love the output, what is the betting that after your short time with it you hate the hassle but love the output! Do you think your opinion would be exactly the same six months in?

My weak efforts of trying to get unbiased opinions on the lifted 100% crop were not meant to deceive, they were meant to illustrate that test numbers theories and equations can only be taken so far, this is an observational endeavor and we need to take much more care with our observations because if we make claims that can be so easily disproved, then it becomes too easy to ignore any real truth in those opinions.
 
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jrista said:
People assumed when you asked that question that the scene was DR limited.

Why would anybody do that? That is like saying "I like cats" and somebody else saying "but I thought you were 5' 10"".

jrista said:
It would be a pointless question otherwise.

No it wouldn't, a +100 shadow lift is a +100 shadow lift, it doesn't matter where the highlights are, or even if there are any. The entire image is as irrelevant as it was in sarangiman's crop which all the DR'ers thought was "amazing", see what you are doing here? Trying to make what you want/expect to see fit into what you actually do see.

Nobody that I have seen has ever denied the Exmor DR advantage and of course there are situations where it can be used to good effect, though I would say that window-desk image isn't one of them, what they have done is say it is of limited value to them (just like 6 vs 10 fps for instance), and they have also disputed some of the techniques used, both in capture and post, when example images have been posted.

P.S. As an aside, the original file has clipped pixels at both the high and low ends, it is DR limited, though that is absolutely not the point.
 
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jrista said:
privatebydesign said:
jrista said:
People assumed when you asked that question that the scene was DR limited.

Why would anybody do that? That is like saying "I like cats" and somebody else saying "but I thought you were 5' 10"".

Why? Because the context of the discussion at that point was entirely about when the shadows are down near or in the read noise. You can't assume that people are just going to pop out of context and answer a question your posing in an entirely different context.

privatebydesign said:
jrista said:
It would be a pointless question otherwise.

No it wouldn't, a +100 shadow lift is a +100 shadow lift, it doesn't matter where the highlights are, or even if there are any. The entire image is as irrelevant as it was in sarangiman's crop which all the DR'ers thought was "amazing", see what you are doing here? Trying to make what you want/expect to see fit into what you actually do see.

Nobody that I have seen has ever denied the Exmor DR advantage and of course there are situations where it can be used to good effect, though I would say that window-desk image isn't one of them, what they have done is say it is of limited value to them (just like 6 vs 10 fps for instance), and they have also disputed some of the techniques used, both in capture and post, when example images have been posted.

P.S. As an aside, the original file has clipped pixels at both the high and low ends, it is DR limited, though that is absolutely not the point.

How, exactly, is the window-desk image not a good example of where DR can be used to good effect? It was used to brilliant effect in that image. There are some artifacts, CA is bleeding around the edges of the palm in the background, the frame of the glass door, and a couple other things. But outside detail is very nicely preserved, and the shadows were extremely recoverable. How is that not a good example of where DR can be used to good effect?

Your standing here telling me that people bias their opinions, with the implication that it's only the DRoners who are doing that. And yet, when a simple example of using DR to prevent the highlights from blowing out in a deck recliner is shared, where very deep black shadows are lifted to reveal clean, usable detail...you dismiss it as a poor example. That is absolutely no different. It's the same thing. You see what you want to see, just as much as you claim we see what we want to see.

More DR is more DR. A guy snapped a photo with a D800 of a hotel room, preserving the highlights in the process, and recovered the shadows to reveal the interior without blowing out the exterior. He knew he could do it, but it was otherwise an uncomplicated use of extended DR. It's an excellent example of how useful more DR can be.

Are you missing the important points on purpose?
 
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jrista said:
Fair game. However, all you've done is proven that a camera that is not DR limited won't have shadow problems. Of course it won't. .

So just to be clear, you are saying that the example posted by PBD ( which was shot into a clear sunlit sky and attempting to hold good data in the deepest recess of the mandatory DR testing awning ) was not a great enough EV range to cause the Canon sensor to have DR issues ?
 
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Wow, just wow.

Talk about trying to move the goal posts.

I am talking about single figure RGB % values, by definition they are in the bottom 10% of the image, on average the top part of the shade under the awning is averaging RGB values of 5, that is the bottom 5% of the scale, the most under exposed 2/3 stop or so!

We are not talking about different things, we are both talking about the bottom 5% of the exposure range that I successfully lifted +100, around three stops, that several of you said could not be done, now I have done it the rebuttals sound like weak excuses.
 
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Sporgon said:
jrista said:
Fair game. However, all you've done is proven that a camera that is not DR limited won't have shadow problems. Of course it won't. .

So just to be clear, you are saying that the example posted by PBD ( which was shot into a clear sunlit sky and attempting to hold good data in the deepest recess of the mandatory DR testing awning ) was not a great enough EV range to cause the Canon sensor to have DR issues ?
Hmm, another unanswered point ;D

jrista said:
Well, as luck would have it, the A7r just arrived. I'll produce a couple test shots, and everyone can decide for themselves what's what.

You truthfully are missing the point.

Everybody already knows what is what, they just don't care about it like you do.
 
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@ PBD – interesting test, with an entirely predictable outcome (not referring to the images, but their reception before and after the 'reveal'). "Wonderful shadow detail" becomes "pointless" because...well, actually the reasons are changed as needed and therefore don't really matter anyway, do they? ::)
 
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jrista said:
Alright. First photos with the A7r. Quick point and shoots. :P I like the IQ...hmm, going to have to see about the body. It's already demonstrated some weaknesses...well. I'll share my thoughts once I've had more time with it.

Sorry about the delay in getting these up. As soon as I exported the sample JPEGs, imgur decided to quit on me. Using PhotoBucket now.

I'm not going to give any of my own conclusions. Everyone can come up with their own. All I'm going to say is, I exposed to preserve the highlights outside the window. The camera meters showed -3EV. I had to boost exposure +4 to result in the same kind of ambient lighting of the room that my eyes saw. I'll share the RAW files soon, along with a couple GIF images to directly compare.

Oh, and I won't "mislabel" anything.

Original Exposures (1/30s f/4 ISO 100):


Canon 5D III


Sony A7r

Pushed Exposures (+4 EV, -100 Highlights):


Canon 5D III


Sony A7r

Fill size jpeg images for the pushed versions:

Canon: http://i1375.photobucket.com/albums/ag461/jrista/A7rvs5DIII-ExposeforHighlightsPushShadows4stops-2_zps8fed09de.jpg
Sony: http://i1375.photobucket.com/albums/ag461/jrista/A7rvs5DIII-ExposeforHighlightsPushShadows4stops_zps0cca615c.jpg

Let the ridicule parade begin. Just, don't be mean. That goes for people on either side of the debate. It doesn't need to be a war. Those of you who don't care about having more DR, great, wonderful. You already have equipment that satisfies you, move on with your lives. Those who do care about having more DR, well, you can have it. There are cameras out there that offer a lot more, some of them are not extremely expensive and compatible with your Canon lenses thanks to Metabones. Don't cut yourself short...if you have a use for more DR, more DR is easy to have.

You have fallen into the first trap of comparative capabilities testing, the same exposure settings, you need to bracket 1/3 stop for a full stop either way to get the optimal exposure for highlight retention from each system.

You yourself said your 7D had better highlight capabilities than your 5D MkIII you need to explore that in the 5D MkIII and A7r if you want to conduct a thorough comparison.
 
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