c.d.embrey said:jrista said:This is highly doubtful. The market is not going to disappear. It may contract, but it will not disappear. The P&S market is definitely suffering from the explosion of high quality cameras in smartphones, but those are still and never will be a replacement for the kind of giant sensors you get in a proper ILC. One way or another, the ILC market will persist. This is just Sony's interpretation of market trends...that doesn't make it the bible's truth. It is also based on PAST data...which, as everyone should know, is no indication of future trends.
Most markets have cycles. Some markets have very long cycles. The introduction of quality phone cameras is disruptive, and is thus impacting the cycle for ILC cameras. I don't think it is going to topple the ILC market entirely...I don't think smartphones have the power to. Different tools for different jobs. One is for your average snapshots, the other is for serious photography. Sure, some people go crazy, get additional lenses for their iPhones, and produce some great works of art...but 99% of smartphones are used to create instagram fodder.
The ILC market will not be toppled by smartphones.
If Thom Hogan is right "Just to stay at the same revenue levels as this year the camera makers would probably have to increase their average selling prices 2x or so just to hold ground. Look out Leica, you’re going to have company." How many people will buy Double Priced Rebels, xxD and Pro cameras ??? Will photography go-away as a main-stream hobby ???
People simply won't buy them at double the price, which is why they won't double in price.
c.d.embrey said:Remember the old saying "Every day, in every way, I'm getting better and better" This really does apply to camera-phones. I can't wait to see how good the camera will be in an Apple iPhone10![]()
I never said camera phones wouldn't get better. I said they would never compare to the quality you can get from giant sensors and giant lenses. Of course they will get better. Over the last few years they have improved dramatically. And yet, how often do you see anything other than blurry, grainy, scratchy photos from smartphones? Sometimes, but generally speaking, RARELY (particularly on a percentage basis, when you consider that Instagram alone gets over 40 million photo uploads a day; throw in Facebook, blogs, and every other means of sharing photos...VERY RARELY!!
Everything gets better. Smartphones aren't getting better while everything else is standing still. There are some simple laws of physics at play as well...smaller sensors cannot gather the same amount of light as larger sensors, and it's the total quantity of light that ultimately determines IQ (assuming all the human-bound factors are accounted for...focus, stability, etc...which again, are better handled with bigger cameras.)
Finally, you have to take that Sony chart in proper context.
First, the automotive market. The automotive market has exploded recently. There have been cars with rear-view cameras for a while now. A lot of places, states and countries, are manadating rear-view cameras now. Not only that, the mandates call for some significant improvements in how they operate. It is not unusual for a single car to use three or more sensors, just for the rear-view functionality.
The smartphone market has matured into this beast where phones are almost like disposable cameras. Not so much in the united states, but in some countries, people often have multiple phones. Governments often use "disposable" (effectively one-use or short-term use) phones for many purposes, most of which include cameras. Smartphones are THE phones for most Americans and Europeans, and are becoming the phone of preference for most of the Asian markets. Cameras have never been more than a niche commodity, however phones are utility. They are expected, assumed to always be. It used to be everyone had a phone in their homes. Then everyone had several phones. Then everyone had cordless phones. Phones are a common utility, they are a simple and basic need and expectation, rather than a niche. It is not surprising that a market of several BILLION is garnering a larger piece of the sensor pie than a market of millions (Canon and Nikon combined don't even amount to 50 million ILC sales, IIRC...and those sales have been minimally affected by the large scale shift from P&S to smartphone cameras.)
The IP Camera market, or really the security camera market in general, is also exploding. The advent of personal security systems that cost $500, come with half a dozen cameras or more and a centralized digital recording system is changing the security market. You can now check your home security status on your smartphone, and even observe any of the cameras remotely (or even all at once.) More advanced systems are being used to do the same thing for small businesses, only with more cameras, specialized cameras for observing and analyzing cash transactions at registers, etc. Again, security cameras are reaching a "utility" status, rather than simply a niche commodity status. It is not surprising that the security camera sensor market is larger than the ILC market.
Finally, unless I am gravely mistaken, the market share bubbles here are SONY's share. They are NOT indicative of the overall market in total across all manufacturers. Sony's share of the compact and ILC markets is still small. Sony's growth forecast is for THEIR products, not the entire market. There have been rumors that Sony would exit many electronics markets, and this may simply be a projection of their eventual exit from the camera market as well, or at the very least, a significant contraction in the number of products they sell in that market.
Sony is the third largest, but it is still dwarfed by both Nikon and Canon, when it comes to ILC market size. The market share dynamic shifts considerably if you add in Canon sensors, and the market share they hold for compact and ILC cameras. Toshiba, Panasonic, and Fuji would balloon the share for those markets further. Adding those other manufacturers is not going to really change the relationship with the smartphone market, however the compact and ILC market grows to more closely match the IP Camera and Car markets.
I find nothing surprising about the market share reports. They are from and about a single manufacturer, and therefor not indicative of the true total market share dynamics. They cover both niche commodity as well as utility markets, and the market share differentials, given the difference in potential customer base between niche and utility, are to be expected. The ILC camera market has never been monstrous, it's in the range of tens to a couple hundred million units a year, depending on how you classify that market and what manufacturers you include. Even at a couple hundred million units a year, there is no way that market could have EVER been capable of capturing the kind of sheer volume that the smartphone market has.
Nope. Nothing surprising at all.
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