Sony Executive: Expects Canon and Nikon full frame mirrorless by this year

[Isaacheus]

I highly doubt that most of those who declare the 6d mk II a fail have
1.) ever had one in their hands and apart of it have USED one...
2.) ever had one of their "favorite" XY camera manufacturers camera in their hands and are telling tales from spec sheets
3.) a well established idea of what is generally important in photography. Yes, a good tool is always desirable, I guess pretty much any camera is a good tool by that means. They seem to be more in the "techie"-department than into photography, that doesn't state they are not into photography. Else, as I said... the 6D mark II's DR is better than it is stated in a lot of videos that jumped onto the boo-train.

I have the same feeling. Paper (spec only) comparisons are so common nowadays. I always like when people do a well-founded and unbiased comparisons.
I was really amazed at Dustin Abbot's 5D4 vs Sonys multi-part review, because I know he used both systems simultaneously, and have genuine right to discuss the differences, free from any bias. As it turned out, the Canon vs Sony situation is not that black and white as some very vocal Sony supporters say. Each system has pros and cons, if judging real life usage. In one other review I saw quite ugly banding in night street photos from Sony A7R3, variable from frame to frame, likely from sodium vapor lights or whatever. The same shots by Canon were nowhere near that bad, and very consistent. I hear no cries from Sony side about such kind of fllaws. The real world experience is never that polarised as the forums tell us.
A few users here were quite sceptical about the 6D2, but when got it, they found that camera to be quite usable. When they finally got it, they did not start that DR talk or whatever, but rather concentrated on creative side of photography.

For me it was special fun and inspiration watching youtube videos of cheap camera challenges of digital rev, where Kai handed extremely cheap and crippled toy cameras to some well-known photographers, and they still managed to do the job. For it means that creative side of photography shoud be much more important than techonology aspect. A vision of the photo is much more important than DR, fps, or MP.

I'm going to take a slightly different view from both of you here regarding the 6dmk2 and its sensor. Overall, I think it's a solid camera, like pretty much all camera releases nowadays. However, for its price, I think it was a disappointment to many, as Canon have the tech for a stronger performing sensor but neglected to include it here. Less so that the dynamic range will limit people left right and centre, but it will mean that it won't perform comparable to the others in its class in some situations. Dustin did a video on the 6dmk2 vs the 5dmk4 and shadow recovery, the major pushes /pulls were one thing, but it also performed worse in minor adjustments, say 2 stops, which would be far more common I'd think.

That, coupled with the lack of 4k etc, means it feels over priced, in my opinion.

For reference, I shoot with a 6d mk 1 and a Sony a7r3, I can take bad photos on each, but the sony is actually more fun to shoot with, even if it has its own, different, quirks.

 

[KevinLegend]

After the disappointment of the 6D II, I'll take a wait and see attitude. Along with FF mirrorless, I'd like to see in-camera image stabilization, two memory card slots, and an improved HDR on par with the Sony A7III. If Canon can do that, then I'm in.

I always wonder what everyone has to say against the 6D except the echoing "no 4K" and "miserable dynamic range"...
4K is obviously true, there is none. The dynamic range may be obvious when you lift shadows at 100 ISO by 4+ Stops... but who does that? I would say one rarely does that. On top there is bracketing when you want that pristine HDR effect.
The 6D mark II is an allrounder, and a very good one. One should focus more on the core tasks of a camera than all these bells and whistles that are put into a body with 2nd class handling, compared to Canon cameras bad reliability as soon as some rain drops or the temperature in the sun is exceeding 25°C..., bad battery life or as with Sony with an experimental menu experience on top.

I highly doubt that most of those who declare the 6d mk II a fail have
1.) ever had one in their hands and apart of it have USED one...
2.) ever had one of their "favorite" XY camera manufacturers camera in their hands and are telling tales from spec sheets
3.) a well established idea of what is generally important in photography. Yes, a good tool is always desirable, I guess pretty much any camera is a good tool by that means. They seem to be more in the "techie"-department than into photography, that doesn't state they are not into photography. Else, as I said... the 6D mark II's DR is better than it is stated in a lot of videos that jumped onto the boo-train.

Totally agree! Here's a shot off my 6dii (had to shrink the size though). I just wish it had dual card slots, but it doesn't hold me back from anything.

 

[bwud]

In one other review I saw quite ugly banding in night street photos from Sony A7R3, variable from frame to frame, likely from sodium vapor lights or whatever. The same shots by Canon were nowhere near that bad, and very consistent. I hear no cries from Sony side about such kind of fllaws.

Where are you listening for these cries? If on a canon centric forum you’re not likely to hear them.

There is plenty of consternation here:
https://www.sonyalpharumors.com/details-sony-a7iii-stripe-issue/

 

[drob]

Why couldn't Canon just put forth a mirrorless camera DSLR-like body with features of mirrorless? I think most people like the ergonomics of a DSLR, especially with larger lenses. Plus they could use EF mount and same battery.

 

[martti]

Sony makes most of its money selling films, video games and insurances.
Canon is very solid with its main income from office automation.
Both of them have a very comfortable position in the market.
Nikon is the most fragile with the highest share of income coming imaging industry.
Shrinking markets is a trend that's hard to beat with even the top-notch pro cameras and lenses.

 

[goldenhusky]

All camera rumors sites are on fire because of this. Pretty much all of them got their biggest click bait of 2018 yet. After all this is an opinion from a Sony exec. Canon has no reason to compete in the camera segment at this point, they are already #1 globally. With the boat load of shitty cameras canon just announced they will capture even more market share. So no need for them to come up with any revolutionary products anymore.

 

[mb66energy]

I don’t understand what is stopping Canon from putting out an entry level FF mirrorless camera now and getting some feedback to guide later pro-Sumer offerings.

I don't know it too but have an idea.

Sony has very good options in this market but no entry level FF mirrorless. I think it is a matter of reputation to bring at least one comparable camera in the market. This must contain something like 5Div level sensor, speed and ergonomics. I think this is not easy because you have less volume and surface and new approaches for ergonomics have to be tested and optimized.

FF isn't entry level IMO - it is for those who want or rely on extraordinary IQ. People like small devices and do a lot personal documentary photography with their "telephones".

While I would buy an "entry level FF" in an instant because I like the corresponding IQ, the look of FF and do not need a fast camera - are there enough users in the world to sell the necessary amount of cameras to make it a low price entry level FF camera?

My guess is that the rumors of two FF bodies released in the near future are substantial: One for prosumers and one for the pros. And Canon wants to do it right in the first iteration - they do not sell "banana products which ripe in customers hands" (heard it first time from Volker Pispers, a german comedian).

 

[Talys]

Here you go. Another 6D2 photo - a wood duck

It is a perfectly capable camera, designed to be somewhere between 80D and 5DIV, and remains one of the best value full frame DSLRs, in terms of being able to produce photography on a slightly smaller budget. Plus, I believe it's the only full frame camera with a fully articulating viewscreen (someone correct me if I'm wrong).

For my purposes, this is just really important; I did not buy a 5D4 because of a lack of an one, and putting budget aside, the 6D2 just works better for me.

 

[eosuser1234]

I’d love to see a FF mirrorless that used EF lenses natively. I’m over due for a new body and I’m going to Japan again in 3 years. I just hope they make it a serious competitor.

I think eventually you'll get just this - I think the next 1DX will likely be a FF mirrorless (or possibly a hybrid OVF/EVF) but not until 2021 I'd guess.

Before that you'll see a new semi-pro FF body from camera, and that will use the EF-M mount or some variant of it. Why? Canon could have made the EF-M mount smaller for APS-C and made even more compact/cheaper lenses. But they stuck to the size they did because that is the minimum size needed for a full-frame lens. Why do that if you're not going to use the mount for that?

Also, there's going to be a lot of people in the future wanting to upgrade from EF-M to full frame, and unlike EF-S to EF there's no reason the existing EF-M lenses couldn't be used (albeit in crop) on FF cameras.

Jolyon

I totally agree it will most likely be EF-M mount with adaptor included for a first launch. Existing EF-M lenses will be able to be used in crop mode, and newer chipped EF-M mount lenses will be developed for FF. Mirrorless is gaining share over DSLR due to size and weight i.e. portability. The same way phones have killed the PS market due to portability. Canon will not abandon those two important factors I feel. Those who want to use heavy large EF lenses can via an adaptor. Having a Metabones adaptor didn't stop a ton of people from using EF lenses on Sony mirrorless did it? For those that don't want an adaptor option, there is the Cyanoacrylate kit option. Hurts resale value though. ;D

 

[3dit0r]

I don’t understand what is stopping Canon from putting out an entry level FF mirrorless camera now and getting some feedback to guide later pro-Sumer offerings.

DIGIC, battery life, DPAF on a full frame sensor all had to be done first.

Based on the performance of the M50 I would say that the Digic processors are not quite there yet.

I doubt a full frame mirrorless would be powered by an LP-E12 .. there's alot that we don't know about how quick DIGIC 8 is.

and outside of 4K DPAF what performance problems is there with the M50?

Not really a major performance issue, but the crop factor is also a bit of a concern: not that it bothers me here at this level (the lack of dpaf is the real drawback) but on a full frame model, I'd definitely hope for no crop.

I'll be very interested to see what Canon include in a mirrorless full frame, I'm hoping they'll be able to match the features of the latest Sony's, focus peaking, zebras, silent shooting, Ibis, 120 fps video etc, along with the typical Canon pluses.

We don't know the full capability of Digic 8 just from the M50 (or at least I hope we don't!), guessing that Canon aren't running that anywhere near full capacity in their entry level mirrorless. It's also possible to run dual processors to carry out different tasks.

I highly agree, to fully compete with Sony and other mirrorless competitors, Canon have to at least match the features of the others including all the ones you mention.

The crop in 4K on the 5D4 was incredibly unpopular. I would expect them to at least match Sony here, and go for a switchable FF/APS-C crop 4K (or FF/APS-H). However, now Nikon have nice FF 4K on the D850, Canon's only competitor in that regard is not just mirrorless. Their next FF pro/semi-pro body needs to compete directly with these now, or they really will be regarded as slipping further behind their competition.

The codec... I think it now needs to match what Panasonic are doing with the GH5 - at least 10-bit 4:2:2 @ 400mbps.

And a lot of people will expect full sensor stabilization (IBIS) as all the direct mirrorless competition have it, and even some DSLR...

If they can do this, then with their traditional strengths (colour science, build quality/durability, etc.) and unique tech (DPAF) they will almost certainly have a winner.

I couldn't state more strongly that I feel this needs to be an EF mount camera -
-- If you compare the size/weight of Sony's FF mirrorless lenses to even Canon's current EF mount of equivalent FL/aperture, there really is no difference, in fact often Canon's current lenses are lighter. To change a few mm on the flange distance and gain zero benefit to overall system size/weight would be madness when they have the best range of lenses in the industry.
--What they absolutely could do is gradually design a range of EF lenses with mirrorless in mind (e.g. f/1.8 aperture, smaller, lighter, still weather sealed, a little like Nikon's 1.8 prime range, or Sony's 55 f/1.8 ).
--What they could also do in a mirrorless body is use the little extra flange to sensor distance to implement a killer feature or two that the competitions short depth doesn't allow - e.g., built-in ND, etc.

Canon used to be the industry trailblazer for innovation, they have the experience, resources and patents to be so again, wouldn't it be nice to see that spirit return?

 

[privatebydesign]

I don’t understand what is stopping Canon from putting out an entry level FF mirrorless camera now and getting some feedback to guide later pro-Sumer offerings.

DIGIC, battery life, DPAF on a full frame sensor all had to be done first.

Based on the performance of the M50 I would say that the Digic processors are not quite there yet.

I doubt a full frame mirrorless would be powered by an LP-E12 .. there's alot that we don't know about how quick DIGIC 8 is.

and outside of 4K DPAF what performance problems is there with the M50?

Not really a major performance issue, but the crop factor is also a bit of a concern: not that it bothers me here at this level (the lack of dpaf is the real drawback) but on a full frame model, I'd definitely hope for no crop.

I'll be very interested to see what Canon include in a mirrorless full frame, I'm hoping they'll be able to match the features of the latest Sony's, focus peaking, zebras, silent shooting, Ibis, 120 fps video etc, along with the typical Canon pluses.

We don't know the full capability of Digic 8 just from the M50 (or at least I hope we don't!), guessing that Canon aren't running that anywhere near full capacity in their entry level mirrorless. It's also possible to run dual processors to carry out different tasks.

I highly agree, to fully compete with Sony and other mirrorless competitors, Canon have to at least match the features of the others including all the ones you mention.

The crop in 4K on the 5D4 was incredibly unpopular. I would expect them to at least match Sony here, and go for a switchable FF/APS-C crop 4K (or FF/APS-H). However, now Nikon have nice FF 4K on the D850, Canon's only competitor in that regard is not just mirrorless. Their next FF pro/semi-pro body needs to compete directly with these now, or they really will be regarded as slipping further behind their competition.

The codec... I think it now needs to match what Panasonic are doing with the GH5 - at least 10-bit 4:2:2 @ 400mbps.

And a lot of people will expect full sensor stabilization (IBIS) as all the direct mirrorless competition have it, and even some DSLR...

If they can do this, then with their traditional strengths (colour science, build quality/durability, etc.) and unique tech (DPAF) they will almost certainly have a winner.

I couldn't state more strongly that I feel this needs to be an EF mount camera -
-- If you compare the size/weight of Sony's FF mirrorless lenses to even Canon's current EF mount of equivalent FL/aperture, there really is no difference, in fact often Canon's current lenses are lighter. To change a few mm on the flange distance and gain zero benefit to overall system size/weight would be madness when they have the best range of lenses in the industry.
--What they absolutely could do is gradually design a range of EF lenses with mirrorless in mind (e.g. f/1.8 aperture, smaller, lighter, still weather sealed, a little like Nikon's 1.8 prime range, or Sony's 55 f/1.8 ).
--What they could also do in a mirrorless body is use the little extra flange to sensor distance to implement a killer feature or two that the competitions short depth doesn't allow - e.g., built-in ND, etc.

Canon used to be the industry trailblazer for innovation, they have the experience, resources and patents to be so again, wouldn't it be nice to see that spirit return?

That depends on who you talk to and who's opinions you are interested in.

Amongst photographers checking spec sheets, internet experts, and the click bait crowd it was a pretty unpopular thing.

On the other hand if you listen to the opinion of actual videographers who are integrating 5D MkIV video with a C-00 then the, effective, S35 video format works really well and blends seamlessly, it is no random thing that the 5D MkIV got C-Log as a post release feature but didn't get an uncropped 4K. Canon were told if they wanted to sell 5D MkIV's as video cameras to serious video folks then it had to have C-Log. They didn't build equip and staff the Canon Cinema facility in Burbank for the fun of it...

 

[ashmadux]

After the disappointment of the 6D II, I'll take a wait and see attitude. Along with FF mirrorless, I'd like to see in-camera image stabilization, two memory card slots, and an improved HDR on par with the Sony A7III. If Canon can do that, then I'm in.

I always wonder what everyone has to say against the 6D except the echoing "no 4K" and "miserable dynamic range"...
4K is obviously true, there is none. The dynamic range may be obvious when you lift shadows at 100 ISO by 4+ Stops... but who does that? I would say one rarely does that. On top there is bracketing when you want that pristine HDR effect.
The 6D mark II is an allrounder, and a very good one. One should focus more on the core tasks of a camera than all these bells and whistles that are put into a body with 2nd class handling, compared to Canon cameras bad reliability as soon as some rain drops or the temperature in the sun is exceeding 25°C..., bad battery life or as with Sony with an experimental menu experience on top.

I highly doubt that most of those who declare the 6d mk II a fail have
1.) ever had one in their hands and apart of it have USED one...
2.) ever had one of their "favorite" XY camera manufacturers camera in their hands and are telling tales from spec sheets
3.) a well established idea of what is generally important in photography. Yes, a good tool is always desirable, I guess pretty much any camera is a good tool by that means. They seem to be more in the "techie"-department than into photography, that doesn't state they are not into photography. Else, as I said... the 6D mark II's DR is better than it is stated in a lot of videos that jumped onto the boo-train.

While it's great to look for the silver linings and see the forest for the trees in most cases, NOT in this one. The 6d is the perfect 'you dont need more than this' camera. Canon intentionally made a hobbled body that makes the 5d4 truly look like the next level. Yes, it will take pictures just fine, but it would be crazy not to factor in the actual worse performance than the previous sensor. The 6D1's horrifying Af module considered, the 6D2 is a step up, but WOW all the Af points stuffed in the middle. An absolute headache for vertical shooting, especially portraits.

I REALLY wanted a 6d2 - the full slippy screen is so desirable to me at this point that I will take some compromises to get it- but Canons omissions are unusually brutal to keep the products segmented. It's really making a fool of the consumer, but obviously feature wise, the consumer is canon's second worry.

And now the sony A73 - simply embarrasses the 6d2. The body is simply the ultimate example of canons long time methodology: "You can do better (how about the next step up?)". Pathetic.

So yes, it will take pictures just fine- but value for money? LOL oh hell's no.

 

[BillB]

I’d love to see a FF mirrorless that used EF lenses natively. I’m over due for a new body and I’m going to Japan again in 3 years. I just hope they make it a serious competitor.

I think eventually you'll get just this - I think the next 1DX will likely be a FF mirrorless (or possibly a hybrid OVF/EVF) but not until 2021 I'd guess.

Before that you'll see a new semi-pro FF body from camera, and that will use the EF-M mount or some variant of it. Why? Canon could have made the EF-M mount smaller for APS-C and made even more compact/cheaper lenses. But they stuck to the size they did because that is the minimum size needed for a full-frame lens. Why do that if you're not going to use the mount for that?

Also, there's going to be a lot of people in the future wanting to upgrade from EF-M to full frame, and unlike EF-S to EF there's no reason the existing EF-M lenses couldn't be used (albeit in crop) on FF cameras.

Jolyon

I totally agree it will most likely be EF-M mount with adaptor included for a first launch. Existing EF-M lenses will be able to be used in crop mode, and newer chipped EF-M mount lenses will be developed for FF. Mirrorless is gaining share over DSLR due to size and weight i.e. portability. The same way phones have killed the PS market due to portability. Canon will not abandon those two important factors I feel. Those who want to use heavy large EF lenses can via an adaptor. Having a Metabones adaptor didn't stop a ton of people from using EF lenses on Sony mirrorless did it? For those that don't want an adaptor option, there is the Cyanoacrylate kit option. Hurts resale value though. ;D

Canon may eventually come up with a FF mirrorless with an EF-M mount that is small and light, but I don't think it will be the first Canon FF mirrorless. My guess is that the first FF mirrorless will be positioned above the 6DII, with an EF mount, articulated screen and a derivative of the 5DIV sensor. More or less what the DR fanatics wanted the 6DII to be, but mirrorless. Doubt that it will have a second card slot though, and I have no idea about 4K.

Starting with the ES-M mount would mean coming up with new lenses and convincing people that they want to go upmarket from the current aps-c M cameras, so I don't think they will start there. I don't think that they will start at the top of the food chain either, although a 5DSRII might be a possibility I guess.

 

[neuroanatomist]

Canon intentionally made a hobbled body that makes the 5d4 truly look like the next level.

So, because people want a 5DIV for a 6DII price, or a 1D X II for a 4000D price, Canon is obliged to give it to them?

You don’t like the 6DII, don’t buy one. I can assure you that Canon doesn’t care about what you do.

 

[Talys]

Mirrorless is gaining share over DSLR due to size and weight i.e. portability.

People may buy mirrorless because of the promise of smaller size and weight, but that promise is a lie, when it comes to the reality of putting professional lenses onto full frame bodies.

Excluding pancakes, when it comes to pro fixed aperture zooms and primes, whatever size, weight, and bulk were saved on the flange on the body are gained right back in exactly the same size on every single lens. However small the throat diameter, is gained right back within a centimeter, making it very uncomfortable for the fingers, and the first lens element and the size of the barrel of the lens is exactly the same size.

And if you actually want to use that camera to shoot photos -- instead of just own it as a trophy -- you'll also need to grip it, at which point it becomes nearly the same size and weight as a pro DSLR.

A Sony A7R3 + Grip + 70-200/2.8 OSS or 24-70/2.8 or 100-400 is practically identical in weight and size to a 5D4 + 70-200/2.8 IS or 24-70L2.8 II or 100-400LII.

But you could just put on a small kit lens onto that A7R3, right? Sure you can, but then why did you waste $3,000 on the body? Anyone who does that is just looking for bragging rights to owning an expensive camera, and should have bought an a6500.

 

[scyrene]

The same way phones have killed the PS market due to portability.

I don't think you can say phones killed the point-and-shoot market *because* of portability. It's more that once every phone had a camera, there was much less reason to buy/carry a dedicated camera in addition to a phone, as most people carry a phone on them most of the time. The smallest P&S cameras aren't really less portable than modern smartphones, which have got larger over the past few years - but why carry two devices when one does the job most of the time?

Those who want to use heavy large EF lenses can via an adaptor. Having a Metabones adaptor didn't stop a ton of people from using EF lenses on Sony mirrorless did it? For those that don't want an adaptor option, there is the Cyanoacrylate kit option. Hurts resale value though. ;D

1. An important part of the market using bigger lenses is pros and enthusiasts, who are surely more likely to care about possible degradation of image quality/AF performance from an adaptor.
2. We don't know how many people use Sony with an adaptor and Canon lenses, but I'd be willing to bet it's a relatively tiny number compared to those using high-end native EF glass. Just because some people are willing to compromise doesn't mean the whole market wants to go that way.

I think you're labouring under the common misconception that mirrorless must equal small. There's room in the market for small AND larger options - we've seen this discussed thoroughly elsewhere on these forums.

 

[Bekippe]

I REALLY wanted a 6d2 - the full slippy screen is so desirable to me at this point that I will take some compromises to get it- but Canons omissions are unusually brutal to keep the products segmented. It's really making a fool of the consumer, but obviously feature wise, the consumer is canon's second worry.

The fully articulated screen is worth gold in my opinion. I've gotten seriously spoiled by them already, and there is no way I could use a camera without one at this point. As for "feature omission," I don't miss anything with the 6DII, and I certainly don't care about video at all. It is a solid camera that (to quote another wildly successful company) "Just Works." Far from "you don't need more than this," it is exactly what I hoped it would be: easy to use, with great results straight from the camera.

 

[dak723]

Mirrorless is gaining share over DSLR due to size and weight i.e. portability.

Yes, that is why people are buying Micro 4/3rds and APS-C mirrorless cameras. FF sees little or no benefit being mirrorless.

 

[Mt Spokane Photography]

Why couldn't Canon just put forth a mirrorless camera DSLR-like body with features of mirrorless? I think most people like the ergonomics of a DSLR, especially with larger lenses. Plus they could use EF mount and same battery.

This is Canon's quandry. Will a compact mirrorless with a entirely new line of lenses plus EF via their alreadt patented adapter sell? Many professionals like the larger bodies and CF cards, while a large number of enthusiasts want the smaller form factor. If a new lens line comes out, I will not be interested.

 

[Don Haines]

Why couldn't Canon just put forth a mirrorless camera DSLR-like body with features of mirrorless? I think most people like the ergonomics of a DSLR, especially with larger lenses. Plus they could use EF mount and same battery.

This is Canon's quandry. Will a compact mirrorless with a entirely new line of lenses plus EF via their alreadt patented adapter sell? Many professionals like the larger bodies and CF cards, while a large number of enthusiasts want the smaller form factor. If a new lens line comes out, I will not be interested.

I don’t think it is much of a quandary..... if you want small, go M series, if you want large, with the ergonomics and controls to match, go FF with an EF mount...

It’s the Rebels that I wonder about..... do they get squeezed out?