Just for Jrista: 2014 Market Data
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Nikon looks like a significant player in DSLR. Some posts here gave me impression of Nikon being a small player with Canon leading the market with significant distance. Canon dumps lot of rebels with printer bundles. They literally gives very expensive printers for free. Does Nikon offers any bundle rebates? Canon might be saving lot of money by using their own sensors with already depreciated fab.
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jrista said:Aglet said:
I'm not surprised. If I was a Canon user, I'd be getting the D810, no question. The D750 doesn't come of as bad to me, but I think it's kind of difficult to differentiate it from either the D810 or D610. For what I do and what I'd want a full-frame camera for, the D810 is the much better option. If cost was the bigger concern for me, the D750 kind of seems overpriced, where as the D610 seems very nicely priced.
Also, no question there was pent up demand, after five long years. The 7D was WAY long in the tooth, and ironically there still isn't a D400 to really compete with it or the 7D II.
The difference I'd say is that the 7D2 is very much targeting pent up demand, along time has past since the 7D was released and compared to most of the recent high end updates(5D3, D800, etc) its given pretty much exactly what most people seemed to be expecting. Ontop of that you could also argue that the 7D2 is also targeting former 1D users who didn't want to move up to FF, a market that won't have bought a camera for several years.
The D750 is I spose somewhat targeting the D700 market but both the D800/810 and the D600 had already targeted a similar market(the D810 arguably better in some respects) and likely drawn out a lot of potential upgraders. When you consider that the lower priced FF DSLR market has also been heavily targeted in recent years I'm not supprized demand isn't that strong out of the gate but I suspect it will prove to be a good seller long term.
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Sony & Olympus have gained in certain markets according to GfK who monitor the global market by territory not region like CIPA. In Japan, China & Taiwan as well as the UK and Germany mirrorless cameras particularly high value ones have grown at a time DSLRs are in a decline although nothing like compact cameras which have caused the major headache for Nikon, Canon, Sony & Olympus et al.
Kowa had some new 4/3rds wide angles what ironically is fueling it is Blackmagic with their pocket camera. Blackmagic have a huge stand at Photokina and have racked-up 20,000 pre-orders & sales for the URSA 4K camera, Red are also at Photokina for the first time.
Kowa had some new 4/3rds wide angles what ironically is fueling it is Blackmagic with their pocket camera. Blackmagic have a huge stand at Photokina and have racked-up 20,000 pre-orders & sales for the URSA 4K camera, Red are also at Photokina for the first time.
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These threads pop up occasionally and often sales volume, market share and profits are quoted to try and prove one sensor or camera company is better than the other.
This information is good if you are considering buying Canon stock CAJ but absolutely worthless in determining who has the best camera or sensor.
This information is good if you are considering buying Canon stock CAJ but absolutely worthless in determining who has the best camera or sensor.
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msm said:
Of course!
I really liked my 7d, except for the horridly stripey shadow noise which made it a body I could not use for certain high DR scenes where I'd need to push the files in post. That limited its versatility and meant i had to carry something else to cover that role.
I really enjoyed USING that camera. I cursed it to hell when I had to push its files in post and I still haven't gone back to rescue some shots I took with it where the shadows are distractingly ugly with FPN.
Previous discussions on this topic have well covered that and, whenever I can make the time to go back and rework those images with some updated NR software, I'll hopefully be able to re-process and make some use of those files.
I've been waiting a LONG time for its replacement. I dismissed the 70D, despite it being the first Canon cropper since the 40D without nasty low ISO FPN, because I want what the higher performance level the 7D's successor would provide. However, value-wise, the 70D would likely be my better option over the 7d2 for the limited uses I have for this type of shooting.
I pre-ordered a 7d2 ONLY because I'll be getting a $900+ discount on a lens bundle deal, otherwise I would not bother.
I've already partially filled this role with an Olympus OMD EM10 + 75-100mm lens. It's great for the little bit of birding I do, not so good for BiF or other high paced action. It's high ISO performance is impressive, it's low iso performance is also very good for such a small sensor. It's small, light, easy to carry and has lots of useful features.
The 7D2 will be a decision point of sorts for me. If it performs really well for ME, I'll likely keep it and some Canon gear in my kit. If not, it's likely I will sell off the rest of my Canon inventory (of value) to fund replacements for those functions from other mfrs. A Canon FF that is high MP and devoid of FPN might make me reconsider some shooting applications (tilt-shift) but i'm already quite satisfied with my current FF Nik gear and expanding in that direction.
As for what Canon thinks, I can't be sure. But I bet they will slowly, quietly continue to improve their products to reduce and eliminate FPN and they will not publicly state anything about that, or DR, in order to keep that shameful little fact from becoming a mainstream topic to the general camera buying consumer. Ignorance and non-disclosure is good for profits and marketshare. They'll just sweep that under the carpet and move on to the next era of products. Speaking of which, looks like they might be thinking a bit more seriously about mirrorless...
http://dc.watch.impress.co.jp/docs/news/interview/20140918_667456.html
use google translate and make your own best guess at how to interpret that vague japanese lingo
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neuroanatomist said:
What I find funny is how people try to use these statistics to show how the 1DX is better than the D810 (and vici versa) and fixate on high end camera comparisons..... Yet the vast bulk of sales for both Canon and Nikon are the introductory crop cameras and the two biggest factors used by the average consumer are price and megapixels... Image quality, autofocus, DR, expensive lenses, and all the other goodies do not factor into the decision, and most of these cameras will live their lives in "green box" mode.....
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jrista said:
Ok so some of what you say may arguably be right, or not, but then you drop this statement in the middle of it.
In what business model would a leading company hold back technology that would crush their competition.
Were they feeling sorry for Nikon because they got hit harder than Canon did by the tsunami?
I think as a Canon shooter I hoped that they would release superior technology last year and even the year before. But to think they withheld technology is like believing conspiracy theories.
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Don Haines said:
As most of us probably do, people I know ask for camera advice. Most want an easy to use DSLR and do not know much else. They understand the concept of megapixels but then you mention high ISO noise and dynamic range and a blank stare comes over their face, you just provided TMI. To them mp = IQ unfortunately.
The last guy that asked me for advice wanted a small DSLR, of course I suggested SL1 with a kit lens for his budget and needs. He ended up buying a Nikon body, and why? He had a 20 year old Nikon lens he could use on it. Sensor wasn't even a thought for him.
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Woody said:
For now, because product loyalty takes time to overcome. Canonites will still swear true to the faith long after logic dictates otherwise, but eventually logic will prevail. If the three companies continue to address the future as they are now, Sony will be top dog with the other two a distant second.
If Canon and Nikon want to still be around in 10 years, they are going to need to radically revise their product design paradigm, because right now both of them are failing miserably.
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Tugela said:
Sony should focus on their TV, they once had the finest TV in the world and they have slipped in the last few years.
They once made a fine computer, I bought one they make now about two months ago, lucky I was able to get my money back. Sony the top DSLR company in ten years?
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takesome1 said:
That's really the point. A few people on these forums seem to think that the sensor, and in particular low ISO DR, is the only relevant aspect of the performance of a camera system. As I keep saying, I'm sure that's true for some people. They just can't seem to grasp that they're in the minority.
Tugela said:
More likely, Sony will jettison their camera business (not bare sensors) due to their financial woes. Sony canceled their dividend payment for the first time ever. Their shareholders aren't happy, analysts are predicting a further 20% loss on top of how far they've already slid. They're hemorrhaging yen and they're credit is at junk status. Not a good time to buy a Sony camera if you value continued support and system development.
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jrista said:
Too many factors affect market shares: chain distribution, advertising, company confidence etc.
Sony switched from CCD to CMOS with much improvement in high ISO quality in 2007-2008. First products Nikon D3/D300, announced on 23-Aug-2007, available in 2008.
This means in 2007 when Nikon had 40% of DSLR market shares as compared to 42% for Canon, they were just selling camera models with Sony CCD sensors.
On the other hand, the Canon 1D Mark 3 fiasco peaked in 2007-2008 (camera announced on 22-Feb-2007, available many months later).
Later, Sony started deploying EXMOR technology. First product Nikon D7000, announced 15-Sep-2010, available some months later.
However, in 2012, Nikon released the D800 (left side misfocus) and D600 (sensor debris) with serious quality control issues which dampened consumer confidence in Nikon.
At the same time, interest in mirrorless cameras started to pick up in Asia. Canon was no longer the top choice for interchangeable cameras in many Asian countries.
The companies also had varying success in penetrating developing markets (e.g., China).
As you can tell, it's all very complex. Sensor quality is only one piece of the puzzle.
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so a pro is still using a 30d? no kidding. My second shooter does as well. pros or part timers aren't in it to buy the latest camera gear. My second shooter and i usually get a kick out of how many people attending whatever event we are working have better gear than he does. me? well, i think i have some pretty sweet gear, but nothing like many of you guys.
pros moving to sony? not event shooters. i came from minolta, and at first i thought that since our cameras are now computers with lenses an electronics giant like sony might be very good. but i feared they would do what they usually do. jack up prices, and start using special sony designed mem cards and the like. then i thought they would start coming out with 12 models a year with completely different control layouts. i don't want that. canon stuck with what i/we know with the 7dmk2 and that is good. when using two cameras at a time, i dislike having one button different.
anyway, that was some rambling.
pros moving to sony? not event shooters. i came from minolta, and at first i thought that since our cameras are now computers with lenses an electronics giant like sony might be very good. but i feared they would do what they usually do. jack up prices, and start using special sony designed mem cards and the like. then i thought they would start coming out with 12 models a year with completely different control layouts. i don't want that. canon stuck with what i/we know with the 7dmk2 and that is good. when using two cameras at a time, i dislike having one button different.
anyway, that was some rambling.
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If I'm interpreting the data correctly, it reflects units sold/shipped, and not revenue? If so, who gives a hoot? Companies exist to make money, and if you have to sell more units to make the same, or even less, money than the competition, why is that a good thing? Percentage of market share is somewhat revealing, but it's not nearly as important as how much money a company earns through its DSLR manufacturing efforts.
Everyone complained that the 5D3 was too expensive when it was released. Almost three years later, 5D3 prices have held steady, despite millions of posts claiming that Canon would drop prices significantly once the initial wave of stupid "first adopters" ceased. On the other hand, Nikon has released the D800, D810, and soon the D750 to fill essentially the same market segment as Canon does with the 5D3.
IMHO, the Nikon's are loaded with some very impressive technology at a lower price point. For tech-obsessed Canon shooters, the envy is understandable. That said, it's reasonable to presume that Nikon is operating on slimmer profit margins per unit than Canon, compounded with the tremendous costs associated with releasing three bodies (D800/D810/D750) in a relatively short amount of time to fill the same slot in the market filled by the 5D3. Oh yeah, I bet all the quality control issues hurt Nikon's profit margin quite a bit, requiring them to sell even more units to make up for the lost revenue.
If Yoda was a DSLR tech junkie he'd say: "Sales volume numbers tell whole story they do not ;D"
Everyone complained that the 5D3 was too expensive when it was released. Almost three years later, 5D3 prices have held steady, despite millions of posts claiming that Canon would drop prices significantly once the initial wave of stupid "first adopters" ceased. On the other hand, Nikon has released the D800, D810, and soon the D750 to fill essentially the same market segment as Canon does with the 5D3.
IMHO, the Nikon's are loaded with some very impressive technology at a lower price point. For tech-obsessed Canon shooters, the envy is understandable. That said, it's reasonable to presume that Nikon is operating on slimmer profit margins per unit than Canon, compounded with the tremendous costs associated with releasing three bodies (D800/D810/D750) in a relatively short amount of time to fill the same slot in the market filled by the 5D3. Oh yeah, I bet all the quality control issues hurt Nikon's profit margin quite a bit, requiring them to sell even more units to make up for the lost revenue.
If Yoda was a DSLR tech junkie he'd say: "Sales volume numbers tell whole story they do not ;D"
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Aglet said:
Actually, the D7000 was also not released with a lot of fanfare wrt its sensor DR even though it was the first mainstream camera to achieve greater than 13 stops of DR at base ISO according to DXOMark measurements.
As for EOS-M, the writing is already on the wall:
a) http://www.dslrbodies.com/newsviews/interchangeable-lens-market.html
"It appears they’ve raised their 2015 interchangeable lens camera sales forecast (i.e. are not predicting another decline for next year, but rather significant unit volume growth). Given what I know of the market the only thing I could see driving the kind of growth they seem to now be predicting is another new interchangeable lens camera of significance."
b) http://www.cnet.com/news/canon-reveals-details-for-future-telephoto-lens-line/
"The newest range of Canon lenses is the EF-M series for the company's new "mirrorless" cameras, a line that's more compact than traditional SLRs. Canon only has a handful of EF-M lenses, but during a press conference here, the company committed to adding more."
c) https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=ja&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fdc.watch.impress.co.jp%2Fdocs%2Fnews%2Finterview%2F20140918_667456.html&edit-text=&act=url
"Yes. EF-M also EF also with respect to compactness, in the format of each, I will continue to efforts to the fullest."
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risc32 said:
It's sad, but many enthusiasts judge the skill of a photographer they know nothing about based on the caliber of their gear. It seems to really stroke their egos when they see a pro with lesser gear than they have. I don't list my gear in my sig because I like to keep people guessing ;D For me, it's much more gratifying to produce better images with lesser resources than my more well-equipped competition.
It reminds me of when I first started posting here, revealed that I made a living shooting with a 5D classic, and was promptly ridiculed as a troll. The many demands to post sample images of this impossible feat were quite comical to say the least.
Meanwhile, I know many very talented pros that are still shooting with 5DIIs, 1DIVs, and 1DsIIIs. One pro friend of mine just finally retired his 1DsII after eight years of field duty! The grip was worn smooth on that thing, but he still managed to produce outstanding images with it.
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