Looking for a good monitor

[wopbv4]

Hi,

even if you have a perfectly calibrated monitor , there is no guarantee that you will get good prints. Printing is the last step of the digital workflow and it is often underestimated how difficult this is.
Each printer has a specific colour range (gamut) which will only partially overlay on top of the gamut of the display, so the mapping is not one on one. Furthermore, the combination of paper, type inkjet (dye vs pigment), printer settings in Photoshop..... make a hell of a difference.
A good test is to make a picture of a Xrite colorchecker (or similar), process your RAW file as best as you can and then print it. The white balance is set on the THIRD grey field from the left on the Xrite chart

I mentioned before that colour management is very tricky, there is a real good book that explains all of this well:
The Digital Photography Workflow Handbook, from RockyNook, author Gulbins, Steinmueller

 

[wopbv4]

Hi, I forgot.
If you send your pictures to a Photolab for printing, the only way to get "matching" prints is when both you and the photolab work in the same colorspace e.g Adobe RGB 1998. This is getting very technical, but that is the story with colour management, remember, people get paid for this!

 

[libertyranger]

Hi, I forgot.
If you send your pictures to a Photolab for printing, the only way to get "matching" prints is when both you and the photolab work in the same colorspace e.g Adobe RGB 1998. This is getting very technical, but that is the story with colour management, remember, people get paid for this!

I've done a lot of research since reading this thread. It appears that most labs print from the sRGB color space. My Canon Pixma Pro9000 (just received yesterday) offers to print in both sRGB and Adobe RGB. Since my monitor is a low end HP monitor, it would probably be best to stick to sRGB correct? I don't have any calibration devices and I know that my current monitor would not be able to render Adobe RGB fully.

When it comes to a new monitor a lot of high end monitors show near 100% coverage of Adobe RGB and sometimes more. For calibration, does that mean I should calibrate my monitor to Adobe RGB or sRGB?

 

[dr croubie]

Hi, I forgot.
If you send your pictures to a Photolab for printing, the only way to get "matching" prints is when both you and the photolab work in the same colorspace e.g Adobe RGB 1998. This is getting very technical, but that is the story with colour management, remember, people get paid for this!

I've done a lot of research since reading this thread. It appears that most labs print from the sRGB color space. My Canon Pixma Pro9000 (just received yesterday) offers to print in both sRGB and Adobe RGB. Since my monitor is a low end HP monitor, it would probably be best to stick to sRGB correct? I don't have any calibration devices and I know that my current monitor would not be able to render Adobe RGB fully.

When it comes to a new monitor a lot of high end monitors show near 100% coverage of Adobe RGB and sometimes more. For calibration, does that mean I should calibrate my monitor to Adobe RGB or sRGB?

I'd say pick one and stick with it. Adobe RGB gamut covers more and is therefore "better" for pros, especially in greens for landscapes. But you have to set your camera to AdobeRGB, computer to adobergb, monitor to adobergb, and make sure you're printing in adobergb, the whole toolchain has to match. Then what do you do with all the photos you've got already, which you shot in sRGB? You can convert the colour space, of course, and it may be worth all the time and effort to you if you manage to sell a lot of them, but for me it's not worth it and i'm sticking with sRGB...

 

[Halfrack]

Go with the Apple Thunderbolt display - you'll want the wired ports on the back of it (firewire800, USB2, gigabit ethernet). Toss in the built in power and it's as good as it'll get.

An option would be to get a new iMac and use it as a stand alone mac, or connect up your Air via Thunderbolt and use it as an external display.

I put in 10 of the 24" Dell Ultrasharp monitors and had a hard time not purchasing one. Yes, the Apple ones are pricy, but snag one off their 'sale' side for $850.

 

[thepancakeman]

I'd say pick one and stick with it. Adobe RGB gamut covers more and is therefore "better" for pros, especially in greens for landscapes. But you have to set your camera to AdobeRGB, computer to adobergb, monitor to adobergb, and make sure you're printing in adobergb, the whole toolchain has to match. Then what do you do with all the photos you've got already, which you shot in sRGB? You can convert the colour space, of course, and it may be worth all the time and effort to you if you manage to sell a lot of them, but for me it's not worth it and i'm sticking with sRGB...

I've been thinking about switching to AdobeRGB, but in reading thru your chain/workflow above brings to mind the question of--what happens to/how do you handle images that are delivered to clients as digital instead of prints? Do you just convert and go, or would you have to redo any/all color corrections, etc?

 

[dr croubie]

I'd say pick one and stick with it. Adobe RGB gamut covers more and is therefore "better" for pros, especially in greens for landscapes. But you have to set your camera to AdobeRGB, computer to adobergb, monitor to adobergb, and make sure you're printing in adobergb, the whole toolchain has to match. Then what do you do with all the photos you've got already, which you shot in sRGB? You can convert the colour space, of course, and it may be worth all the time and effort to you if you manage to sell a lot of them, but for me it's not worth it and i'm sticking with sRGB...

I've been thinking about switching to AdobeRGB, but in reading thru your chain/workflow above brings to mind the question of--what happens to/how do you handle images that are delivered to clients as digital instead of prints? Do you just convert and go, or would you have to redo any/all color corrections, etc?

No idea, so I just stay away from either (selling digital prints and using AdobeRGB.
I'd say the best way is to tick the "embed ICC Profile in image" in the 'convert and save' dialogue in DPP, which I always do. Then when it opens up in GIMP or whatever, it has a progress bar of "converting from sRGB v1.31 (Canon) to sRGB (built-in)", ie, GIMP is converting the embedded Colour profile of the photo to the colour profile of the computer. They're both the same sRGB colour profile so that's probably not needed though.

If you sell a digital copy to someone with an embedded AdobeRGB profile, if they open it with the right program (gimp, firefox, photoshop), then it will read the embedded profile and convert it to the working space of the client's computer. If the client is using sRGB (more than likely), it will look 'ok', but it won't look 'exactly' the same as what you see on your system using AdobeRGB because you're seeing more greens than they will.
If, however, the client opens it in the 'wrong' program that doesn't read colour profiles (i'm looking at you, internet explorer), then it's just going to look crap. Client eductaion is the only way around that...

 

[Halfrack]

Hi, I forgot.
If you send your pictures to a Photolab for printing, the only way to get "matching" prints is when both you and the photolab work in the same colorspace e.g Adobe RGB 1998. This is getting very technical, but that is the story with colour management, remember, people get paid for this!

Handy list of ICC profiled shops:

http://www.drycreekphoto.com/icc/

 

[libertyranger]

Great advice here! Thanks so much. Think I'll be sticking with sRGB.

Next question:

Got my Pixma Pro9000 Mark ii hooked up and printed a couple 8 x 10's. The color in the prints is definitely not accurate to what I a seeing on my computer monitor. So what would fix this?

Calibrating my monitor? Or do I need to do something with the printer settings.

Mike

 

[wopbv4]

Libertyranger,

you have arrived at a point where you will need a lot of determination to get it right, so don't give up!!

One bit of advise, when you print in Photoshop, in the print dialog:
In print settings, fourth setting from the top , go to "quality and media" and select the right Media type and set quality to high. SAVE.
In the colour management box:
tick document
Photoshop manages colors
Printer profile should be the same as the media you selected before. If you do not have the profile, download it
Relative colorimetric
tick black point compensation

At least this way, you know that you use the right ICC profile for the paper.

Your Pro9000 as it is DYE based printed, should give you very vibrant prints, trust me , it is a GOOD printer.

as I mentioned before, print a test chart and compare.
I know that I am repeating myself, put set the brightness of your monitor as low as possible.

 

[libertyranger]

Libertyranger,

you have arrived at a point where you will need a lot of determination to get it right, so don't give up!!

One bit of advise, when you print in Photoshop, in the print dialog:
In print settings, fourth setting from the top , go to "quality and media" and select the right Media type and set quality to high. SAVE.
In the colour management box:
tick document
Photoshop manages colors
Printer profile should be the same as the media you selected before. If you do not have the profile, download it
Relative colorimetric
tick black point compensation

At least this way, you know that you use the right ICC profile for the paper.

Your Pro9000 as it is DYE based printed, should give you very vibrant prints, trust me , it is a GOOD printer.

as I mentioned before, print a test chart and compare.
I know that I am repeating myself, put set the brightness of your monitor as low as possible.

I don't own Photoshop but it is something I am considering. Right now I have Lightroom 3. Would the print options be the same as you have described? Also, I am about to pull the trigger on a monitor calibrater to make sure the colors on my monitor are accurate. I've read several positive reviews on Amazon for the Spyder 3 Pro. Several people have said that once they calibrated their prints finally started to come out as they were being displayed on their monitor. Ultimately, I don't think I would be too picky for the colors. I'd just like the monitor's colors to represent what the Pixma Pro9000 puts out. As of now, the printer prints out much darker photo's.

 

[wopbv4]

I have no experience with Lightroom, but regardless which software you use, it is vital to match the profile (ICC) with the paper.
Spyder 3Pro is an excellent piece of kit, you can't go wrong there, but please follow the instructions carefully.

Dark prints, yes, I had the same problem before, in my case I was using an old printer driver on my MAC, after I downloaded the latest driver, the problem was 95% solved.
Having said that, the problem is well known, have a read at
http://www.northlight-images.co.uk/stuff/?p=1361

 

[libertyranger]

I have no experience with Lightroom, but regardless which software you use, it is vital to match the profile (ICC) with the paper.
Spyder 3Pro is an excellent piece of kit, you can't go wrong there, but please follow the instructions carefully.

Dark prints, yes, I had the same problem before, in my case I was using an old printer driver on my MAC, after I downloaded the latest driver, the problem was 95% solved.
Having said that, the problem is well known, have a read at
http://www.northlight-images.co.uk/stuff/?p=1361

Just to clarify, by profile (ICC), do you mean that I need to select the right paper. That the paper is the ICC profile. Or is the ICC profile something with the monitor. I'm new to all of this as you can see

 

[wopbv4]

ICC profile.
There is a difference between a monitor profile and printer profile(S).
The monitor profile sets your display.
Printer profiles are unique for each printer and paper!!
The software does not know what type of paper you have loaded in your printer, so you need to "tell" the software via a profile which paper will be used for the print.
For example:
Canon Platinum paper on your printer needs a profile called Canon Pro9000 Mark II Photo Paper Pro Platinum
Canon Semi Gloss paper on your printer needs a profile called Canon Pro9000 Mark II Photo Paper Plus Semi Gloss
If you use HahneMuhle or Ilford paper, you will need to download the files from their website.
I have attached the HahneMuhle instruction in a pdf file, but it probably will confuse more then anything else

Also read:
http://www.imaginginfo.com/print/Studio-Photography/ICC-Color-Management-Explained/3$3667

 

[libertyranger]

ICC profile.
There is a difference between a monitor profile and printer profile(S).
The monitor profile sets your display.
Printer profiles are unique for each printer and paper!!
The software does not know what type of paper you have loaded in your printer, so you need to "tell" the software via a profile which paper will be used for the print.
For example:
Canon Platinum paper on your printer needs a profile called Canon Pro9000 Mark II Photo Paper Pro Platinum
Canon Semi Gloss paper on your printer needs a profile called Canon Pro9000 Mark II Photo Paper Plus Semi Gloss
If you use HahneMuhle or Ilford paper, you will need to download the files from their website.
I have attached the HahneMuhle instruction in a pdf file, but it probably will confuse more then anything else

Also read:
http://www.imaginginfo.com/print/Studio-Photography/ICC-Color-Management-Explained/3$3667

Thank you, this clarifies a lot. My Pixma Pro9000 does have profiles for all the Canon photo paper types (Glossy Plus II, Pro, Platinum Pro, etc.). I make sure I select the right paper profile. So at this point, it sounds like I have the printer profile correct, I just need to get my monitor to match the colors that the printer is putting out.