Loving Canon right now.

[nicku]

let's compare the 7D with the 60D...

launch price: 7D $1699 ; 60D $1099. The price difference between the cameras is $600.

the specs difference is huge; many of us know them, but let me remind them:

7D features over 60D

- better body construction ( all magnesium alloy)
- new and much better AF
- improved shutter life
- Faster shutter speed
- CF card slot
- much better weather sealing
- 100% frame coverage
- bigger pentaprism
- Dual Digic 4 processors
- better LCD ( top and back of the camera)
- in camera AFMA
- camera joystick

and many others.....

Judging by this comparison i came to one conclusion :

If they wanted to produce a better camera than the current 6D specs they could have done without affecting the profit very much.

The new 6D in my opinion was designed by Canon as a milch cow. I believe this plan will backfire due to the greed of high revenue /unit sold.

Nikon has a different marketing strategy... lower revenue/unit sold , but high number of sales.

 

[larams67]

Except in the BMW analogy people do not buy thousands of dollars worth of equipment that will only fit that BMW.

They are not tied to the car in the same way as specific camera users are. Be it Nikon, Canon or whoever.

So in a sense we are tied to our choice of camera makers and are having to rely on them to stay up with technology and give us the best they can and also at fair prices.

A lot of people right now on Canons side aren't feeling like that is happening. It doesn't appear to me like Canon is working nearly as hard as Nikon is to satisfy it's users and attract new ones.

The fact of the matter is. For me it's not Canons superior products that are keeping me with them. It's purely the economics of losing a few thousand dollars selling my old gear and having to buy all new lenses and flash systems for Nikon. Personally I think Canon knows this is a common mentality and they play off it.

Simply put they are milking us.

 

[EchoLocation]

This car analogy is not a good one OP. Cars are completely different.
First of all, we aren't comparing a BMW to VW, we are comparing Honda to Toyota, or BMW to Mercedes.... of course it would be unfair to compare prices of a BMW(Canon 1D/5D series) to a VW(7D/Rebel)
Two cameras at the same price point are being compared, the 6D and the D600, or 5DIII and D800. The 6D's specs just don't look any better to me than the 5DII's. In fact, i'd probably rather have a 5DII than a 6D. The only problem is, is that the 5DII has been out for 4 years, and I have never really wanted it. I want a FF camera with better, more expansive AF. If I had wanted the 5DII I would of bought it over a year ago new when it was selling for 2000 or less, or refurbished from Canon's CLP. So, to me, Canon isn't offering as good or as exciting of products as Nikon is at this point..... add to this a $2300 new 24-70(the lens I want the most) and i'm overall unhappy with my choices in Canon. I'm buying a D600 and 24-70 2.8 for around 3800 dollars, instead of a 5DIII(I wouldn't consider the 6D) and 24-70 II for $5200.
While Canon is a great company I'm not sure that
Second, cameras are part of an overall system. When you choose to buy Canon or Nikon bodies or glass you are stating your loyalty to these companies by investing in an overall system of lenses and bodies. This is nothing like choosing to buy a car.

 

[Marsu42]

Reading through recent forum posts on here, I get the impression that most people have gotten really fed up with the company and their products...

Because Canon a) shamelessly exploits brand loyalties (misplaced as they may be, but I've been shooting Canon for two decades) and b) deliberately cripple "lesser" cameras to make users upgrade (60d vs 50d: no afma = 7d upgrade; 6d vs 5d2: no true center cross sensor @f2.8 = 5d3 upgrade).

let's compare the 7D with the 60D...
launch price: 7D $1699 ; 60D $1099. The price difference between the cameras is $600.
the specs difference is huge; many of us know them, but let me remind them:
7D features over 60D

But when the 60d was released, the 7d hadn't dropped in price as much as the 5d3 now - and paying $1100->$1700 is different than $2100->$2800, no matter the absolute difference. I think Canon expects the 6d to drop in price very fast, that's why they set a high start point.

Btw: we'll have to see about the real world af and sensor performance of the 6d, because the 60d (also?) has better iq than the 7d due to less banding and it also added some gimmicks (60d: swivel screen, 6d: wifi/gps). The most important thing about the 6d is that it most likely will run Magic Lantern

 

[tomscott]

I will judge when we have an actual idea about how this camera works, as no one has picked it up and used it yet to review it. Until then you can argue the specs until your blue in the face.

Although a few people might be eating their words. This product isnt for me but doesn't mean its not for anyone else. A lot of people on here fancy themselves as pros but I wonder how many actually are.

You wont be able to compare the 5DMKII to the 6D because by the time it comes out it will have been discontinued. Anyone who makes money from photography doesn't buy used, as its a risk. Any down time means money lost, so the only cameras you can compare it to in Canons line up are the 5DMKIII and the 1DX.

 

[nicku]

Although a few people might be eating their words. This product isnt for me but doesn't mean its not for anyone else. A lot of people on here fancy themselves as pros but I wonder how many actually are.

You wont be able to compare the 5DMKII to the 6D because by the time it comes out it will have been discontinued. Anyone who makes money from photography doesn't buy used, as its a risk. Any down time means money lost, so the only cameras you can compare it to in Canons line up are the 5DMKIII and the 1DX.

+1

 

[AvTvM]

Sentiment against Canon from many of its customers comes from the fact, that Canon has been massively losing ground over the last 4 years against Nikon, Sony.
5 years ago Canon CMOS sensors ruled supreme. They got complacent, now the situation is reversed. Canon is not able to come up with fully competitive cameras - especially in the "enthusiast" user segment and especially for (stills) photographers. Too much attention seems to be going into video crap all over. Canon should make the C-line camcorders for the video crowd, and should stop bending over backwards to those cheapo-video freaks who want to use DSLRs for video ... the single most unsuited imaging gear for that purpose. These days, a proper HD full frame HD camcorder can be had for 3k ... so no need any longer to abuse DSLRs for HD video stuff.

On top of that comes Canons arrogance, its incredibly infuriating "market differentiation" by crippling not only hardware, but even firmware functions, that do not cost a thing. Combined with ludicrous price hikes all the time. 6D would have been ok as a base level "FF rebel" ... at 1 grand ... but 2 grand ... how ridiculous, when 2.800 USD will get you a Nikon D800.

Canon will pay the price very soon. They will lose market leadership for interchangeable lens cameras in 2013. Deservedly so! They really need a wake-up call. And kick out their geriatric croporate brass.

I will contribute to that wake up call. Once I "upgrade" from my current 7D to FF and need to sell my EF-S glass anyway 10-22, 17-55, 60 Macro I will also sell my EF glass 40/2.8, 50/1.4, 100/2.0, 70-200/2.8 II and take my money elsewhere, if all Canon has to offer is overpriced and underspecced cr*p.

 

[Cannon Man]

This post is not intended to start a war on this forum, but I just wanted to voice my support for Canon at this point in time. Reading through recent forum posts on here, I get the impression that most people have gotten really fed up with the company and their products... I for one can't quite understand why? Call me a fanboy (whatever, I've also shot Nikon dslr, and going back a few years...ahem decades... Minoltas and Pentax 35mm slrs), but the sheer choice right now is brilliant if you ask me. Last year I was in the position of wanting to upgrade to Full Frame, and at the time there was literally only one (I will stand corrected on this - please do let me know) body in the canon lineup that I could consider for FF: The 5DII, which is what I bought. I've been very, very happy with my purchase, but alas, if Iwas making the jump right now, like a lot of people seem to be, I would have the choice of 4 bodies: 1DX, 6D, 5DII or 5DIII - seems to me like a great time to be entering the canon fullframe arena!?

I'm interested to hear why people are becoming more and more unhappy with canon products? If it's the price, in my opinion this doesn't really count... I know I'm gonna take some flack for this, but you get what you pay for and if you can;t afford it, either save your money or look elsewhere. I would like to drive a BMW M5, but I can't afford it. Instead I drive a humble VW golf. Doesn't stop me lusting after the M5, but I wouldn't start complaining to BMW about the price, and demand it drops down to VW pricing. It's simply out of my reach at this point. Tough totty.

As far as I can see it's a great time to be doing photography and canon is still the first port of call for me. My 5DII still takes awesome shots and I intend to keep it for another 5 years, much like my 400D before that.

Finally someone posted something decent! You read my thoughts. No matter how positive the thread starts it always turns to hating canon. Most of the time the prices tick people off.
I don't usually read past the second page because it is just canon hate on a canon forum.

I'm just happy there is a great selection of lenses and camera bodies out there that let me do exactly what i need to do.

Please switch to nikon already if you don't like any cameras that canon makes or stop complaining.

 

[hyles]

I think IQ of 6D will turn to be at least as good as 5DIII.
I don't think d600 is better, it is different, but i do think that what is missing to 6D is the fact that canon fans cannot say "Canon is better". It seems to me that it is not really importat what the camera can do, but it is more importat that it can do it better than any nikon. So it is allway canon vs nikon, " I have canon, so canon must be better" otherway i'll be uppset.
Diego

 

[nicku]

I think IQ of 6D will turn to be at least as good as 5DIII.
I don't think d600 is better, it is different, but i do think that what is missing to 6D is the fact that canon fans cannot say "Canon is better". It seems to me that it is not really importat what the camera can do, but it is more importat that it can do it better than any nikon. So it is allway canon vs nikon, " I have canon, so canon must be better" otherway i'll be uppset.
Diego

Canon 6D misses some very ''minor'' things compared with other Canon FF cameras but most important with the direct competitor D600, things like:

- AF
- body construction
- fps
- MP
- dual card slots....
and others.
I believe those features are making 50% of the camera. The other half is the IQ and high ISO performance. The available pictures so far are saying that the ''others'' are better even in that segment.

 

[aj1575]

I will contribute to that wake up call. Once I "upgrade" from my current 7D to FF and need to sell my EF-S glass anyway 10-22, 17-55, 60 Macro I will also sell my EF glass 40/2.8, 50/1.4, 100/2.0, 70-200/2.8 II and take my money elsewhere, if all Canon has to offer is overpriced and underspecced cr*p.

Then good luck and enjoy the grass that is greener on the other side...

The 6D at 2100$, it's still a lot of money, but it is the same as a similiar speced D600. (D600 has more AF-Points, and bigger zone metering, built in flash, dual card slot, while the 6D has WiFi and GPS). But you can be sure, that that price will drop, like the one of the 5D III is starting to do. Early adopters pay extra. As long as there are people around who think they need the newest eqiupment the moment it is announced, so long companies will be able to charge them extra. The 6D will go as low as 1600$ within 2 years, which is a fair price for such a camera.

And no, Canon has not really a problem with their sensors, at least not among people who take pictures, instead of reading dxomark, and comparing the numbers as if they were Horsepower and 1/4mile times.
Shoot at ISO 100 and the D800 will give you the possibility to take details out of underexposed parts because of its high dynamic range, but shoot in low light, and the 5D III will give pictures with much less noise. You decide what you prefer, and what your needs are.

True, Canon lost its advantage it had over Nikon in the sensor department. And Sony makes great sensors (not cameras, so far). But the real looser in this game won't be Canon, it will be Nikon. Sony uses Nikon to help them finance their chip production and development, because alone Sony would be nowhere near Canon volume. But if Sony market share grows, they will not need Nikon any longer...

 

[nicku]

I will contribute to that wake up call. Once I "upgrade" from my current 7D to FF and need to sell my EF-S glass anyway 10-22, 17-55, 60 Macro I will also sell my EF glass 40/2.8, 50/1.4, 100/2.0, 70-200/2.8 II and take my money elsewhere, if all Canon has to offer is overpriced and underspecced cr*p.

Then good luck and enjoy the grass that is greener on the other side...

The 6D at 2100$, it's still a lot of money, but it is the same as a similiar speced D600. (D600 has more AF-Points, and bigger zone metering, built in flash, dual card slot, while the 6D has WiFi and GPS). But you can be sure, that that price will drop, like the one of the 5D III is starting to do. Early adopters pay extra. As long as there are people around who think they need the newest eqiupment the moment it is announced, so long companies will be able to charge them extra. The 6D will go as low as 1600$ within 2 years, which is a fair price for such a camera.

And no, Canon has not really a problem with their sensors, at least not among people who take pictures, instead of reading dxomark, and comparing the numbers as if they were Horsepower and 1/4mile times.
Shoot at ISO 100 and the D800 will give you the possibility to take details out of underexposed parts because of its high dynamic range, but shoot in low light, and the 5D III will give pictures with much less noise. You decide what you prefer, and what your needs are.

True, Canon lost its advantage it had over Nikon in the sensor department. And Sony makes great sensors (not cameras, so far). But the real looser in this game won't be Canon, it will be Nikon. Sony uses Nikon to help them finance their chip production and development, because alone Sony would be nowhere near Canon volume. But if Sony market share grows, they will not need Nikon any longer...

Little off topic:

Even if Sony will achieve the same build quality, speed, processors as Nikon they will not drop them. The reason is very simple : they must produce sensors for their own cameras... right... So... why not selling a couple thousands/ tens of thousands more sensors. all companies are interested in profit not market share or loyalty to their costumers.

Who knows what the collaboration agreement between Sony and Nikon says... maybe Nikon will help Sony with technology to produce very good cameras in exchange of world leading FF sensors....

 

[JohanCruyff]

So, to me, Canon isn't offering as good or as exciting of products as Nikon is at this point..... add to this a $2300 new 24-70(the lens I want the most) and i'm overall unhappy with my choices in Canon. I'm buying a D600 and 24-70 2.8 for around 3800 dollars, instead of a 5DIII(I wouldn't consider the 6D) and 24-70 II for $5200.

Your comparison does not convince me.
5200$ is (a lot) more than 3800$, but I expect that Canon's 24-70 outperforms Nikon's one (and I think that, in many aspects, Canon's 5D3 is better than Nikon's D600).

 

[FunPhotons]

What dr croubie said so well in the first reply.

I work for similar kind of company (specialized hardware with custom firmware) in a similar position (old company, established leader). While I'm stuck with Canon because I can't stand Nikon ergonomics and design, I see that they've so well established themselves that they're not really trying anymore. Changes will continue to be incremental, innovation will be low, and they'll be late on releases. What they won't be is sloppy, the released products will perform as expected. This is what happens to these old, established companies. They - really the people working for them - want a nice comfortable job with no surprises, so they'll delay a release instead of releasing something that isn't wrapped up. Basically they don't want any nasty surprises.

Photokina was a non event.

PS. You can spot companies in this position by how much they massage specs on the product line. Because they can't get their act together enough to really innovate, they'll play pricing games, and artfully leave features out of devices in the product line. A young, innovative company will just churn out new, innovative stuff. See a pattern here?

 

[RuneL]

Oh no. Car analogies...

VW is the rebel of cars and the BMW is the 1D X?

No, just no. A 320D is a piece of shit compared to say a Golf R: The BMW is slower, less grippy, less fun, not much more practical, worse interior, worse gearbox. The Golf R is a piece of shit compared to the Renault Mégane RS 265 CUP, the Renualt is a race car, properly set up for track, awesome feeling with the road, awesome sounds, you feel connected to the drive, not disconnected as in the VW Golf R that's a lot more expensive too. And so on.

Car analogies fail, maybe compare the lineup from BMW or something, I don't know, but the other one just doesn't work.

 

[Cannon Man]

Does anyone know if the folks at nikon rumors hate nikon so much as people hate canon here?
For what i've seen and heard they dont. We should grow up.

Who here has thought about talking to their mothers about all the hate you have about canon? I'm sure she could help somehow. (ps. I'm not trying to troll anyone, just saying)

 

[JohanCruyff]

Does anyone know if the folks at nikon rumors hate nikon so much as people hate canon here?
For what i've seen and heard they dont.

+1

If we all were Nikonians, every single day we would wake up and cry "Oh, no! Another night passed, and no (sharp) Nikkor 70-200 F/4 VR has been announced!" and then protest on all the forums on the web.

 

[UrbanImages]

As far as the 6D is concerned, people need to realize that it is not targeted towards the professionals/serious amateurs, but rather those who are looking to break into FF. I for one wouldn't buy it, but I knew and expected this prior to official announcement. I also wouldn't buy a 1Dx, doesn't fit into my needs. For what I shoot, my 5D's (both I and II) and my 7D fit my needs. I will eventually move up to 5D III by the end of the year. I do believe that there is a place for the 6D, it's a direct competitor to the D600 and is targeted as such. I believe that Canon has overstuffed their DSLR's with things such as video, GPS and the like. I learned to shoot on film, I started with a Rebel nearly 20 yrs. ago. I shoot my digitals as I did that camera. Canon surely has a sizable edge in glass. That is the biggest complaint I have found with Nikon shooters, their glass isn't even in the ballpark to Canon. One guy I know has a complete Sigma lineup for glass because he hates Nikon glass. In the end ability, creativity and knowledge of equipment make the photographer. The bodies and glass are just tools to that end. Canon must know what the market demand is, I doubt they would release a camera, putting all that money into R&D and production if they just wanted to throw a camera out there for the sake of it. Only time will tell, when the prototypes and reviews come out, judge then.

 

[Viggo]

Let me start by saying I love my canon camera. For me the frustration is not in the speed of upgrades, it's the out of whack practice of lower end cameras getting features first.

I think the 6D is what was needed, a more affordable entry level FF. What I'm pi$$ed that it comes with built in features (wifi control via smart phone & built in GPS) that are thing that I get to pay +$400 for on my Mrk III, or that are not available. These were features that I (and many others) wanted 4 years ago, and I kind of expected to be standard at this point in time on DSLRs. Now it appears I could have saved a lot of money going with this lower end camera to get all the features I wanted (FF, Improved focus, improved ISO, Camera and Movie Mode, Around 20mp, Built in GPS, WiFi control via smart phone).

As I recall, when the 7D came out, it ended up having a few features that the 5D Mrk II did not (but eventually did get). This is almost the same thing, but these features can't be added in firmware, they have to be purchased for a premium. It's like design and marketing aren't thinking when they come up with features for the users. More like how can we get the most money out of our users wallets? When it's time for me to get a new camera body in a few years, if Canon is still pulling the same stupid maneuvers, I'll be jump ship.

I'm with you on that one, I was seriously upset when the 7d got the spot-af when the 1d4 didn't get it. And also now that an entrylevel gets interchangeable focusing screens and 5d3 not. Along. With the things you mentioned. I think that the 1d X should have everything all other cameras in the next two year has.

 

[dstppy]

Does anyone know if the folks at nikon rumors hate nikon so much as people hate canon here?
For what i've seen and heard they dont. We should grow up.

Who here has thought about talking to their mothers about all the hate you have about canon? I'm sure she could help somehow. (ps. I'm not trying to troll anyone, just saying)

You can post things like this until you're blue in the face . . . but in the end, you just have to wait out the latest surge. They tried to rile everyone up at the 5DmkIII launch but no one really bit (except over price). Once the D600 started getting rumors, they went for another round and we really fell for it.