Magic Lantern Cracks the EOS 5D Mark IV

[rrcphoto]

That is absolutely fantastic!!!!

A magic lantern version for the 5D4 would simply make it the absolute best photo/video hybrid on the market, thanks to ML, not Canon!

Imagine what ML can do to the 1dx2: 4k 60p DCI RAW APS-H with DPAF for $6k!

They won't touch the 1 series. Canon would destroy them.

How?

Is ML breaking any laws (ML doesn't seem to think so - http://www.magiclantern.fm/about.html)?
If so, would canon have better luck going after them than adobe or Microsoft (etc, etc) has preventing people who code keygens and authorization hacks, apple going after iOS jailbreak hackers, etc?

I tend to agree they probably won't mess with 1-series cameras. Not because they fear the wrath of canon, but because they are a group of enthusiasts who likely can't justify buying that kinda of hardware to experiment with to serve a group of users unlikely to risk impacting the stability of their gear.

it's a gray area. keep in mind that canon supports cameras that run ML, so while they don't officially support it; they are far better than other companies at supporting the "hacked" cameras.

there was a rumor that if ML touched the 1 series that ML would face the might of canon's legal team. the firmware is encrypted.

from wiki:

"In the United States even if an artifact or process is protected by trade secrets, reverse-engineering the artifact or
process is often lawful as long as it has been legitimately obtained"

you legitimately obtain the firmware package, you do not legitimately have the right to decrypt it for public use.

it would be a grey area that I doubt ML would even want to touch.

I do see that ML was not that interested in going to the 1 series, mostly because of the camera expense - but I'm sure the potential threat helped as well.

 

[YellowJersey]

I'm not entirely sure that hacking a camera would necessarily violate the manufacturer's IP. It depends largely on the code used. I'm not sure how ML works exactly, but if it's a set of custom firmware that doesn't rely on proprietary code, then there's little Canon could do about it. It would be like Microsoft suing a Linux distro for people installing Linux on their computers instead of using Windows. That said, I'd be surprised if ML doesn't rely on anything proprietary. Plus, the precedent set regarding jailbreaking iphones is in ML's favour.

I wouldn't say it's worth it for Canon to care about ML. People still have to buy Canon products to install ML on, and shutting ML down would probably send ML users elsewhere rather than to the more expensive products Canon would rather them buy. But, never underestimate how pigheaded and short sighted a corporation can be. Apple has shown clear contempt for users who don't user their products the way Apple wants them to and thrown childish temper tantrums (re: legal action) over it. Canon strikes me as being a bit like the Apple of the camera world, so I wouldn't put it past them to throw a hissy fit over ML and try to shut them down.

Corporations really don't understand the concept of good will. It's more of a hostage taking situation now. When it comes to good will and consumer loyalty, I think Fuji and Panasonic are doing it right.

 

[3kramd5]

Hi 3kramd5.
The how and why Canon might shut down ML for touching the 1 series is pretty irrelevant when this is taken from the page you link to, under the heading scope!

I still have the curiosity factor, though. I don't think canon would be able to effectively stop them let alone destroy them. They could temporarily distrupt the website, which could easily be moved to a host who wouldn't fear empty lawsuits (such as a Russian server, for example), or the code could be bit torrented like so much actually illegally shared software.

[intellectual property]

[/intellectual property]

They don't develop for 1d because they choose not to; it's too small of a target. There are orders of magnitude more people using the lesser priced models, and that's where they aim their development.

Effectively of course they could. The combined wealth of all the ML developers is probably much less than 3 or 4 million dollars, Canon legal department could gobble every cent of that up in defending motions and legalese. They don't need to have a case, they don't need to face off against a company. They have myriads of corporate lawyers on retainers just waiting to be set loose, these guys (and girls) are trying to make a name for themselves and will find every cent you own (I have personal experience of being on the wrong side of a large corporate legal department, even though in my case the corp was 100% in the wrong and liable).

So on a strictly court case based legal argument, especially considering the very broad consumer laws and protections in Europe, you might be correct in that the ML team are not doing anything technically illegal. But that is moot when corporations can tie anybody smaller than them up in knots with the staff they have on retainer looking for a fight. That ML still exists is proof positive that Canon are granting tacit permission to do what they do, but no more.

As a side note, I have the EOS-M and run ML on it, I will be very interested to see if they go back to the EOS firmware for the M5 so ML can run on that too. So far the original M is the only M with ML compatibility.

The combined corporate legal might of the major software companies worldwide has been impotent to prevent piracy (for every pirate bay shut down, two more open); the overwhelming pocketbooks of Apple has been unable to prevent jailbreak developers (which is similar in nature to magic lantern); the insurmountable pocketbooks and legal power of the world governments have largely been unable to prevent publication on a very public website (wikileaks) of sensitive state information.

I'll stipulate that canon *could* expend the resources to go track down people who have an easy option to move to dark web anonymity, and could initiate lawsuits bankrupting the individuals with paperwork. Could. You said they would. You think it's worth Canon's while?

That is a completely different scenario, you have millions of uploaders and downloaders for torrents hosted by quick witted domain and domicile savvy owners that make millions off advertising. An impossible thing to put back in the bottle. ML probably have half a dozen core 'developers' who can't even afford a range of cameras to test and live in their mum's spare room (bless them).

The Apple analogy is also different enough to not count. Do you know how much the first jailbreak for any firmware revision is paid? Some have been over $100,000, there is value and prestige in cracking a device owned in the 100's of millions. How many Canon 1DX MkII's are there? How many 1DX MkII owners are interested in the additional ML capabilities? What is the 'prize' money value of cracking the 1 series firmware? Virtually nothing, and ML disavow trying and wouldn't post it even if somebody did it, why do you think that is?

Like I said, this has all been discussed at length with knowledgeable ML participants in the past. They specifically said Canon have let it be known the 1DC firmware is off the table, this seems to effectively include all 1 series cameras. This is not my opinion, it is me relaying comments from those involved first hand. I do not know the specific approach Canon would use to flex their displeasure, but I have zero doubt they could eliminate ML as we know it. Sure you could still get what they currently have via Demonoid or Piratebay, but personally I believe they could cause the few active developers enough trouble for them to no longer consider it a viable or worthwhile project.

Remember corporations have more than one option in instances like this, they could even nullify the development comparatively cheaply by 'sub contracting' the active developers.

sure, they could offer to hire th ML devs. But as for the rest of it, I respectfully disagree; I don't believe that canon could effectively shutdown an unofficial, opt-in group of individuals with no physical common area or financial ties and easy access to anonymity via TOR and non-centralized distribution via bit torrent. Hell, they can't even stop for profit companies like sigma and tamron from reverse engineering their lens protocol.

The Apple analogy is apt. The fact that money is offered makes it easier to track and yet apple, who can probably afford 50 lawyers for each one working for canon, is impotent to stop it.

Maybe the ML developers *believe* that canon can squash them and accordingly won't try with a 1D, but I think they're shying away from an empty threat.