mhm... open letter to canon?

[Northstar]

Many of these executives at canon are like execs at most other large corporations, they're good at corporate politics and doing things that help them move up the corporate ladder. This doesnt make them great at making business decisions, just great at saying the right things to the right people. After many years they finally get to a level in the company where they have the final say and/or significant influence on the business strategy, and features/pricing of a product like this new 6d or the ridiculously priced 24-70ii....and they end up making average business decisions which lead to "ok" products.

Steve Jobs constant focus on the product at Apple should be the most important class they teach at business school. Make things that customers will fall in love with....profits will follow. Not many people will fall in love with a canon 6d...IMO.

Edit...there was a "big miss" this year, but it actually came from Nikon. They came with a 36mp "slower" camera that isn't as good of an "all around" camera as the 5d3...and targeted towards a narrower group of photogs. But what if Nikon had done what canon did by simply upgrading their very popular d700? They would've had a d800 out at $3,000, 22mp, 8fps, AND the much better sensor everyone keeps talking about....that would've forced canon to adjust their pricing a bit on the 5d3.

 

[marekjoz]

So this is the letter, we could send

"We, the community of canonrumors.com, we wish to thank you for the effort you make for the world of imaging products. However, observing your marketing decisions in the area of the DSLR products line - it's specifications and pricing - we believe, that our own experience, expectations and loyalty were often omitted. The best example is the EOS 6D - so long expected by many of us and dissapointing by even more. To help you achieve even better results as from the technical as well from marketing and business points of view, we think, that our help will be more than good welcomed by your DSLR's department. Therefore we strongly advice you to send to each of us on this forum, having, let's say 830 comments and more, samples of the newest DSLRs, mirrorlesses and lenses for testing purposes (we could also use it for casual business purposes as nothing makes the better promotion as the fact, that it can earn for itself). Addresses for delivery we will send to you via PM system on this site, or on regular e-mail basis.
We appreciate your attention, hope you understand our concerns and have strong faith in our perspective cooperation. After having tested the gear you would sent, we promise to write only truth, no matter if you like or not. We hope, that you understand, that this is crucial for really objective results, and only they can lead to achieve better results. Those 20 sets of your best and newest technology might be the best investment in marketing and testing since the world has seen the first EOS on the planet.
Looking forward to here from you soon, we send you best wishes and thank again for understanding."

 

[Stewbyyy]

I have a 6D on pre-order...

It's perfect for me. It will go very well with my 60D. I shoot some sports, gigs and portraits. The 60D has always been perfectly fine for my sports needs so I can keep it for that. The 6D will be perfect for portraits and great for gigs since I only really use the centre AF point anyway.

For me, buying a 5D Mark II would be pointless, as buying CF cards to replace my SD cards would put me around the same price point as the 6D, if not, more. The 5D III, although perfect, is out of reach.
I'm not a professional, I shoot and earn money from it, I shoot for fun, I'm going to college for photography. The 6D is perfect for me, in absolutely every way. Yeah, I would have liked the 7D's AF system, but 9 points doesn't bother me, I wouldn't care if it only had the one point in the centre - that's all I pretty much use.

It's been said that you get what you pay for. You're never going to get exactly what you want, a compromise has to be made someone. If you really want better AF then save your money for a few extra months and get a 5D Mark III. Is it really that hard a concept to understand?

I don't care that it has SD cards over CF cards, in 4 years of using a DSLR I've never had an SD card fail on me. Class 10 SD cards are perfectly fast for practically anything, my 60D's buffer clears quickly and the 6D should be fine.

Canon didn't mess this up, it's an entry level full frame camera.
Treat full frame and APS-C sensors independently of each other.
APS-C:
650D - it'll do pretty much anything you need but it's a simple camera with a few cool features to appeal to consumers.
60D - more robust camera than the 650D, better built, better features, not necessarily aimed at people looking to just take snapshots.
7D - top of the line, professional features, built like a brick.

Full frame:
6D - it'll do pretty much anything you need but it's a simple camera with a few cool features to appeal to consumers.
5D Mark III - more robust camera, better built, better AF, less gimmicky, built for professional use.
1DX - Top of the line, if you want the absolute best then this is what you buy.

I think some people are just too cheap to admit that the camera they want is a bit more than they would like to spend.

 

[Canon-F1]

I think some people are just too cheap to admit that the camera they want is a bit more than they would like to spend.

or maybe they think they get a better deal for less money from nikon these days.

 

[aj1575]

Steve Jobs constant focus on the product at Apple should be the most important class they teach at business school. Make things that customers will fall in love with....profits will follow. Not many people will fall in love with a canon 6d...IMO.

I'm glad you mention Steve Jobs. What would a camera look like, if it were made by Apple?

Just look at the iPod. People and reviewers were asking for FM-receivers all the time, Apple never included it. The ability to record on an iPod, like it was possible with many other MP3 players; no, never on an iPod.

Appled trashed Flash on the smartphone; can you remember the outcry of the puplic, and especially the reviewers, what! no flash, they have to do something about it.

Or the iPhone an exchancable batteries. There is still discussion going on about that, like with many other things Apple did.
So like here in the forum, there many people complaining about apple products too.

 

[marekjoz]

Steve Jobs constant focus on the product at Apple should be the most important class they teach at business school. Make things that customers will fall in love with....profits will follow. Not many people will fall in love with a canon 6d...IMO.

I'm glad you mention Steve Jobs. What would a camera look like, if it were made by Apple?

Just look at the iPod. People and reviewers were asking for FM-receivers all the time, Apple never included it. The ability to record on an iPod, like it was possible with many other MP3 players; no, never on an iPod.

Appled trashed Flash on the smartphone; can you remember the outcry of the puplic, and especially the reviewers, what! no flash, they have to do something about it.

Or the iPhone an exchancable batteries. There is still discussion going on about that, like with many other things Apple did.
So like here in the forum, there many people complaining about apple products too.

Looking at their perfect target group and previous products, such a camera would have one button only.

 

[bakedcorn]

I think some people are just too cheap to admit that the camera they want is a bit more than they would like to spend.

or maybe they think they get a better deal for less money from nikon these days.

...then go buy Nikon.

 

[Canon-F1]

...then go buy Nikon.

well many would.... if they had not thousands of euros invested in canon glass.

and if you use your fanboy brain on your third posting here, you might get it before making a post.

 

[distant.star]

I think some people are just too cheap to admit that the camera they want is a bit more than they would like to spend.

And there's the rub. Do you bend over and help them stick it in or do you turn around and slap their face! Is it more than you would like to spend or is it more than it's really worth? And if it's more than it's worth, do you "...take up arms against a sea of troubles..."?

"...a bit more than they would like to spend" is pathetically passive. And "just too cheap" is what a whore says when she gets insulted when you only offer her a quarter.

Most consumers have become like this guy -- they think a seller sets the price and they can either afford it or not. If they have the money, they just hand it over for what they want. The idea that the price may not be worth the value never enters their mind. What -- I don't get what I want because it costs too much???

Best example is the 5D3. I'd own one today if I thought it was worth $3500. It has nothing to do with what I'd "like to spend." I could spend that, even though I don't want to, but it's far more important to me to say to Canon, "I like your product, but I won't pay that much for it." So I don't pay that much for it. [The Adorama ebay sale last weekend revealed that it can be sold for $2750, so when the opportunity comes along again, I'll pay that for what is probably the best overall, mass market, full frame camera available.] Frankly, all the bendovers, who gladly handed over $3500 haven't helped send any message to Canon in the only language they truly comprehend.

Funny thing, as much as I think the 6D is an abortion of a camera, the price does not seem out of line. It's going to put a lot of Spielberg wannabes and center-pointers in hog heaven. And it's going to sell a lot of glass for Canon.

And now, if you'll pardon me, I have pictures to make. Good day one and all, even you pathetically passive consumers.

 

[aj1575]

well i guess you can´t tell me what the manufacturing cost of the 6D is either?
so your guess is as good as mine.

my guess is based on the fact that the 60D sells for 950 euro (the 7D for 1200 euro) and i don´t see any feature that is worth 1150 euro more.

the FF sensor? :

and yes.. i say GPS and WIFI will not make manufacturing much more expensive.

canon is simply maximising profit.. that´s ok for canon to try... but don´t try to sell me the 6D as a bargain.

it´s like dpreview wrote:

Canon appears almost to have gone the other way, removing as much as it thinks it can get away with at the price. The result is the kind of conservative, slightly unimaginative design that's become the company's hallmark.

The price for a 60D is today at 950$ it was 1300$ when it came out http://pricespy.co.nz/product.php?pu=697573(NZ$). The 5DII started also over 3000$ like the 5DIII. So the comparison of the brand new 6D to a 2 year old 60D, is flawed. The price of the 6D will come down soon, and by the amount of the drop we will see how successfull it was, and by how much Canon can lower the prices with still making profit.

 

[aj1575]

Most consumers have become like this guy -- they think a seller sets the price and they can either afford it or not. If they have the money, they just hand it over for what they want. The idea that the price may not be worth the value never enters their mind. What -- I don't get what I want because it costs too much???

Best example is the 5D3. I'd own one today if I thought it was worth $3500. It has nothing to do with what I'd "like to spend." I could spend that, even though I don't want to, but it's far more important to me to say to Canon, "I like your product, but I won't pay that much for it." So I don't pay that much for it. [The Adorama ebay sale last weekend revealed that it can be sold for $2750, so when the opportunity comes along again, I'll pay that for what is probably the best overall, mass market, full frame camera available.] Frankly, all the bendovers, who gladly handed over $3500 haven't helped send any message to Canon in the only language they truly comprehend.

You forget that there is a thing called "supply and demand", if there is demand for a 3500$ FF DSLR that Canon can supply, then they will do it. They will do the same with a 2099$ DSLR. If the demand drops, they can lower the price, or they need to reduce the supply.
If you are not willing to pay 3500$ for a 5DIII, then you are simply not at the point where supply and demand meets. And just because some people think that 3500$ is not too much for such a camera, doesn't mean that they are wrong.

 

[Loswr]

So like here in the forum, there many people complaining about apple products too.

Yeah, but those people are all just Microsoft-loving whiners with a high tolerance for kludgy platforms.

 

[RC]

To me this is all very simple:

The 6D seems like a fine camera for FF beginners. The problem is it should be about $1600, have a flipscreen, aimed at the video group, and fall in the xxD line, something like a 65D. Gimmicks like WiFi and GPS can remain (yes they are gimmicks, although useful for many, they are not core camera components).

For us that care more about core components like AF, view finder size, build and ergo, and even card type there is only 1 option which is the the very costly 5D3. Now that Canon has offered an xD alternative to the 5D3, there is little to no hope that Canon will offer a mid range FF body this cycle.

I think we can all agree there is a huge gap between the 5D3 and 6D. If the 6D was a xxD and the 6D was in-line with other xD (single digit) bodies, it would be good for us and good for Canon. I think there is plenty of room for a another $2500 FF body assuming the 6D is a xxD priced about $1600

For those telling us we are too cheap and unwilling to cough up the bucks for a 5D3, well, even in the year 2012 $3500 is a lot of money for a body and difficult to justify for many. Some just don't have it, others can't justify it. Canon will still likely get our money but in the form of glass and accessories so its not about being cheap.

For those telling us to run to Nikon, yes some will and have. For myself, I'm invested in Canon, I'm staying with Canon for several reasons.

I certainly understand Canon-F1's frustration and desire to send Canon a letter although I don't think it would be effective. Yes there are bigger issues in the world as one poster mentioned but that is partly why I visit CR to escape much of the BS in the world. Finally I think it is perfectly appropriate for someone to express their frustration or disappointment in a product spec or announcement as long as it's in moderation and appropriately stated.

 

[daniemare]

I am an owner of a 500D and a 450D before that. I upgraded solely to give my the 450D to my sister as I could get the 500D at a bargain price. Performance difference - almost none

For me, the 6D would be an improvement in ALL departments. FF, ISO, DIGIC, FPS, AFS, OVF, LCD, GPS, WIFI. Bonus is my SD cards are still usable. And I understand its is me that Canon is targeting with the 6D

My point is yes, if you bought a 60D or 7D last year, you might be dissapointed. Even a 5DII owner might be. But I am sure that the 5D owner sees the same upgrades as I do.

It's very much like the iPhone 5. Coming from a 3GS I think it is an awesome phone, while many of my 4S friends are dissapointed.

If you buy a camera/phone/TV/you name it every year, the incremental upgrades will frustrate you to the point of shear dissapointment

 

[Zlatko]

...then go buy Nikon.

well many would.... if they had not thousands of euros invested in canon glass.

Easy to sell it. Very easy: eBay. You can sell all of your Canon gear within a week. I've never had a problem selling my used Canon gear and have always gotten a fair price. The loss on resale is modest, certainly fair for the use I've gotten out of the gear.

 

[Sony]

I almost canceled 5DMKiii's pre-order when was reading a lot of complaints on this forum. Fortunately, I didnt and now am very satisfied with it. So, post complaint after it's yours and you are familiar with it. Dont utter after just hearing. LOL,

 

[jfretless]

I think some people are just too cheap to admit that the camera they want is a bit more than they would like to spend.

And there's the rub. Do you bend over and help them stick it in or do you turn around and slap their face! Is it more than you would like to spend or is it more than it's really worth? And if it's more than it's worth, do you "...take up arms against a sea of troubles..."?

"...a bit more than they would like to spend" is pathetically passive. And "just too cheap" is what a whore says when she gets insulted when you only offer her a quarter.

Most consumers have become like this guy -- they think a seller sets the price and they can either afford it or not. If they have the money, they just hand it over for what they want. The idea that the price may not be worth the value never enters their mind. What -- I don't get what I want because it costs too much???

Best example is the 5D3. I'd own one today if I thought it was worth $3500. It has nothing to do with what I'd "like to spend." I could spend that, even though I don't want to, but it's far more important to me to say to Canon, "I like your product, but I won't pay that much for it." So I don't pay that much for it. [The Adorama ebay sale last weekend revealed that it can be sold for $2750, so when the opportunity comes along again, I'll pay that for what is probably the best overall, mass market, full frame camera available.] Frankly, all the bendovers, who gladly handed over $3500 haven't helped send any message to Canon in the only language they truly comprehend.

Funny thing, as much as I think the 6D is an abortion of a camera, the price does not seem out of line. It's going to put a lot of Spielberg wannabes and center-pointers in hog heaven. And it's going to sell a lot of glass for Canon.

And now, if you'll pardon me, I have pictures to make. Good day one and all, even you pathetically passive consumers.

Wow. What a tool.

 

[paul13walnut5]

@neuroanatomist

Quote from: aj1575 on Today at 09:28:47 AM

So like here in the forum, there many people complaining about apple products too.


Yeah, but those people are all just Microsoft-loving whiners with a high tolerance for kludgy platforms.

Or those mightily annoyed with Apples policy of abandoning the professional creative market that kept them going through the dark days before iphones & apps.

Apple screwed up FCP, so I think shall I move onto Adobe CS? Except that I'll need to drop another £1000 on a graphics card that will give me anything like the performance from a PC costing half as much, or less.

Apple have a great OS and handsome machines which are a joy to use. But when it comes down to brass tacks, if I can't run the app I want at a modern speed (FCP7 made 64bit) and I am getting pumped because of Apple & Adobe's unpleasant petty spat, then I'll make my next PC a windows machine.

Life is too short and my pockets too shallow. Some Mac zealots really can't see this. I've used macs professionally since 2001, PowerMacs, iMacs, Powerbooks, Macbook Pros, Mac Pros, since every version of FCP from v2 onwards. I love macs. Stable. Reliable. Transparent. OSX when it came in just vindicated that.

Now apple don't want my business anymore. Or they want me to use a neutered version of the app that doesn't play nice with the pro tape formats I need.

So I'll moan about Apple thanks. And I was an Apple person.

 

[Trovador]

To me this is all very simple:

The 6D seems like a fine camera for FF beginners. The problem is it should be about $1600, have a flipscreen, aimed at the video group, and fall in the xxD line, something like a 65D. Gimmicks like WiFi and GPS can remain (yes they are gimmicks, although useful for many, they are not core camera components).

For us that care more about core components like AF, view finder size, build and ergo, and even card type there is only 1 option which is the the very costly 5D3. Now that Canon has offered an xD alternative to the 5D3, there is little to no hope that Canon will offer a mid range FF body this cycle.

I think we can all agree there is a huge gap between the 5D3 and 6D. If the 6D was a xxD and the 6D was in-line with other xD (single digit) bodies, it would be good for us and good for Canon. I think there is plenty of room for a another $2500 FF body assuming the 6D is a xxD priced about $1600

For those telling us we are too cheap and unwilling to cough up the bucks for a 5D3, well, even in the year 2012 $3500 is a lot of money for a body and difficult to justify for many. Some just don't have it, others can't justify it. Canon will still likely get our money but in the form of glass and accessories so its not about being cheap.

For those telling us to run to Nikon, yes some will and have. For myself, I'm invested in Canon, I'm staying with Canon for several reasons.

I certainly understand Canon-F1's frustration and desire to send Canon a letter although I don't think it would be effective. Yes there are bigger issues in the world as one poster mentioned but that is partly why I visit CR to escape much of the BS in the world. Finally I think it is perfectly appropriate for someone to express their frustration or disappointment in a product spec or announcement as long as it's in moderation and appropriately stated.

Reasonable, well though posts such as your will not be tolerated in this forum, reported!. (Completely agree)

 

[friedmud]

Canon WILL lose customers over this.

Lots of people will just wait for the next iteration. Many will just get a 6D anyway. Several will save up for a 5D3. Some WILL sell all their Canon gear and get a D600.

How many that is remains to be seen.

My D600 rental shows up tomorrow. If it's good, you'll be able to find all of my Canon gear on Craiist next week.

I know I can't be the only one.

Will it ultimately "hurt" Canon that some are going to leave? Probably not... and that's definitely not my intention... I just want the best camera I can get for $2k.