More 7DII focus problems

[raptor3x]

Hey, ease up a bit, I'm just trying to learn here. And I'm not quite the idiot you think I am, I shoot sports and it's almost always center point only, I get good shots, as good as the pros at the tournaments I've gone to.

Perhaps you can explain how these defined set of parameters choose what they choose. Why does it sometimes choose what is the background, ignoring a decent foreground? Why does it sometimes choose stuff off to the side and other times not?

Did you look at those pictures and can you explain why it choose what it did?

Am I the only one scratching my head over that? For the record, the 5DIII does not do that, the 7DI did not do that, my 20D and 40D and T4i did not do that. But I'm sure the problem is me and the camera is perfect and all those other bodies just happened to do a better job.

Did you have iTR metering enabled for this? If you look at which AF points are selected in the shots you've provided you can see that the camera is always selecting the high contrast target closest to the camera which is exactly what the 5D3/7D1/70D will do as well as the 1DX if you turn iTR off. With iTR turned on, the camera should try to find faces in the frame to lock onto first and then go for the closest high contrast target. As others have said though, for this kind of scenario large area AF mode in AI Servo mode with iTR turned off is probably the worst mode you could have picked. In order of preference, I would have chosen Spot AF/Single Shot --> Single Point/Single Shot --> 65 point/Single Shot/iTR. Also, iTR only looks for faces in single shot mode; in Servo mode it samples the color underneath the "seed" AF point and then uses that information to help track the subject through the frame.

 

[FEBS]

Please do read the 7d2 AF guide carefully for using all 65 points. There is mentioned in that guide that if one-shot is choosen the closest point of the 65 points will be used. In ai-servo mode however, focus starts with the manual selected af point And will then follow that point over the 65 different positions, dependentie on Itr additionele tracking info. Both methodes are very usefull, however they different ferm the current p&s that have auto face recognition which the 7d2 does NOT have. The 7d2 Has a color And face tracking system, but that's different from p&s

Thanks, will do. Is the all points mode in the 7DII a departure from the 5DIII and other earlier bodies?

I remember discussions here about how the camera will decide where to start and there is supposedly logic in there to prevent (as was shown) an fencepost grabbing the focus when the main picture is beyond that.

The 5diii And the 1dx behave the same in all points AF in combination with ai-servo. The 5diii has however a less intelligent tracking system compared to 1dx And 7d2.

To be honnest I never use all points on the any camera. I like to be in control by using at single point with most of the time 4 point expansion. Only for birds against the sky, And when I have trouble to track a bird, then I use zone or all af points.

In the beginning I also had problems with such a complex af system. However, on the 5d3 after a lot of testing And Reading I found my wat. I never had afterwards any problem with the 1dx nor the 7d2 recently, caused by similar af system And all the efforts I made in the past. Sorry, but all focus points is much more complex as it seems And in no way to compare with the all focus points of a p&s.

 

[Keith_Reeder]

I will have more keepers with a lens with a good IS and a lower shutterspeed in combination on a 7D2 with max 1600 till 3200 ISO.

Ahem...

100% crop of 4000 ISO (ISO chosen by Auto ISO while testing at "working" shutter speeds) from my 7D Mk II - converted with (and straight out of) a good Raw converter - no additional PP NR, no trickery, just a capable camera and converter combo:

http://kazemisu.me.uk/images/7D_Mk_II_4000_ISO.jpg

(here's the whole frame, for the Exif: http://kazemisu.me.uk/images/7D_Mk_II_4000_ISO_1.jpg)

Yes, there's a bit of light here, but rest assured I can get way higher ISOs - and in shitty light - to much the same effect (here's 16000 ISO: http://kazemisu.me.uk/images/7D_Mk_II_16000_ISO.jpg. Check the Exif - just 1/200 at 16000 ISO and f/4), just by making a smart converter choice and learning how to use it well.

 

[FEBS]

Hi Keith,

I agree that the 7d2 can go higher in iso then 1600 or 3200. However, the kind of photos the op made, under those light condition, then I would not go higher then 3200 Iso. For my 5d3 iT would be max 6400 And the 1dx max 12800. But for those conditions I would always choose for a FF. And besides, higher iso always make the photo more soft.

You did a good job for removing the Noise. Which converter did you use?

 

[takesome1]

As to the "5 precisions points vs. 1" detail - can you tell me when that's ever likely actually to matter?

It matters that the 7D II is not as precise as the 1D bodies.
For instance shooting wildlife such as deer.
It is the difference between choosing between 20 photos that are in focus but only a few have critical focus of a deer's eyelashes in crisp sharp focus and choosing between 20 photos that have the eyes in crisp sharp focus.

As for the other 64 points, when shot individually they are not as accurate as the center point with the 7D II. They have a harder time achieving that critical focus.

 

[takesome1]

Here's a far more useful page from TDP:
http://www.the-digital-picture.com/Comparisons/Canon-EOS-7D-II-1D-X-5D-III-AF-Comparison.aspx

Of particular Real World significance:

"However, all 65 AF points on the EOS 7D Mark II are standard precision cross-type points, versus 21 standard precision cross-type points on the EOS- 1D X and EOS 5D Mark III. For EF lenses with maximum apertures equal to or larger than f/5.6, the EOS 7D Mark II has an advantage, especially when considered in combination with the larger coverage area described earlier. Advantage: EOS 7D Mark II"

I know from hands-on experience that in the vast majority of cases, that's going to get me more in-focus shots than four more high precision AF points in a vertical line in the middle of the AF array.

I think the "Real World" significance is comparing the 7D II the last two months rather than a rehash of Chuck Wesstfall's sales pitch.

My hands-on experience is showing a different story than yours.

 

[Loswr]

Hey, ease up a bit, I'm just trying to learn here. And I'm not quite the idiot you think I am, I shoot sports and it's almost always center point only, I get good shots, as good as the pros at the tournaments I've gone to.

If learning is your objective, allow me to refer you to several posts giving nearly identical advice (don't let the camera select the focus point for you)...on the very first page of this thread.

Perhaps you can explain how these defined set of parameters choose what they choose. Why does it sometimes choose what is the background, ignoring a decent foreground? Why does it sometimes choose stuff off to the side and other times not?

Closest proximity and highest contrast in an orientation appropriate for the point which is over the feature. Sometimes distant high contrast wins over close lower contrast. Sometimes what looks like high contrast to you is not in an ideal orientation for the AF sensor, and thus looks like much lower contrast to the camera. The actual AF points are bigger than the boxes in the VF, so sometimes a feature is activating an AF point even though you believe it is not under an AF point. Taking all of that into account, the bottom line is that the AF system sees the world differently than a human sees it. So...we're back to don't let the camera pick the AF point for you.

 

[Mt Spokane Photography]

FF bodies have generally had more accurate AF (in terms of inches or mm accuracy) than crop bodies. They need it, because the depth of field on a FF can be a lot less. As I recall, AF accuracy is specified based on 1/3rd the depth of field up to f/2.8.

The number of pages in a manual does not affect AF accuracy, there are no settings for it, its built into the size and spacing of the elements on the AF sensor.

The 7D MK II has a sophisticated AF system, and is much better at tracking subjects, has fast AF speed, and much better when focusing at off center points, but when comparing accuracy on the center point, I'd expect to see the 6D win because in in or cm, 1/3 the depth of field is a much smaller number on FF.

From TDP http://www.the-digital-picture.com/Photography-Tips/Canon-EOS-DSLR-Autofocus-Explained.aspx

"Precision, invisibility, and other intangibles
As mentioned above with the precision discussion, there's a modified type of AF point called a 'high-precision' point, which focuses within 1/3 of the depth of focus of the lens at max aperture, vs. the normal precision spec of within 1 depth of focus. Usually, the high precision point is the center point, and it operates in high-precision mode with an f/2.8 lens on most bodies, or an f/4 lens on 1-series bodies. The 1D X is an exception in two ways - it has five high-precision points in a central vertical column, instead of just one, and they require f/2.8 unlike previous 1-series bodies. "


Is this had or have? And any links where I could read further on this pls?


I say had, because I've not seen figures for accuracy of the 7D. Presumably, the cross points are still accurate to 1/3 depth of field with f/2.8 or faster lenses, and within the depth of field for slower lenses. This number has been widely quoted over the years, and found all over the internet.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autofocus

From a Canon patent (US Patent 6,603,929)

When the camera determines how far and in what direction the lens must move to cancel the phase difference, it does so within a tolerance of "within the depth of focus" of lenses slower than f2.8 (down to f5.6) or "within 1/3 of the depth of focus" of lenses f2.8 and faster. The depth of focus is the range at the sensor plane within which the image of a point will be reproduced as a blur smaller than the manufacturer's designated "circle of confusion" (CoC). Canon's designated circle of confusion is 0.035mm for the 24x36mm format and 0.02mm for the APS-C format.

You can also checkout Canon Lens Work III.

And this post by Neuro a few years back quoting Chuck Westfall.

http://www.canonrumors.com/forum/index.php?topic=1143.msg15334#msg15334

 

[candc]

i did some testing using the 7dii and the 50l using 65pt auto select. from what i see it is doing what the manual says its supposed to do which is focus on the closest thing. the af points cover almost the entire horizontal frame so that is a lot to get in the way. try opening the photos in dpp using quickview and show af points to see if it is doing the same thing. if not then there is something wrong with the camera.

if you are using ai servo make sure "af initial point for 65pt" is set to auto. not manual, or preselected.

this test i did was single shot but ai servo seems to work the same way in that mode.

 

[CLohmeyerJr]

When I first got my 7D II I also struggled with focus issues. I have been working with the camera now for about a month and am finally starting to get better results. I still have a lot that I delete but photographing flying birds is not the easiest subject in the world. I have by no means figured the camera out and I am already changing settings based on my experience yesterday. This camera is more complicated than the the original 7D but I already believe it is better.

Here is a photo I took yesterday of a great blue. Shutter speed was 1/1000 (going to 1/1250 next outing), aperture was 8.0 and ISO was 320.

 

[FEBS]

i did some testing using the 7dii and the 50l using 65pt auto select. from what i see it is doing what the manual says its supposed to do which is focus on the closest thing. the af points cover almost the entire horizontal frame so that is a lot to get in the way. try opening the photos in dpp using quickview and show af points to see if it is doing the same thing. if not then there is something wrong with the camera.

if you are using ai servo make sure "af initial point for 65pt" is set to auto. not manual, or preselected.

this test i did was single shot but ai servo seems to work the same way in that mode.

Thanks Candc,

I was not aware that this option was added on the 7D2 AF system. I did find it back in the AF guide and also in the manual under AF4 menu.

For those shooting in all 65-AF points, this might be a great option, as switching this to automatic means that you can the camera focus on the closest object, but be aware that this will not mean that a person/face will be automatically focused.

 

[Sabaki]

Ok, I need help as I'm also not getting the results I expected from the 7DII.

For the record, I'm on my 2nd body, as the first one had issues that was recognised by the outlet where I bought it and exchanged within 3 days for another body.

My reasons for buying a 7Dii was for me to take my action photography, wildlife and birding in particular, to a level my 500D could not attain.
I chose the 7DII based on the vaunted AF system, which I do freely admit that I don't know well enough just yet.

My results are very hit and miss right now and those results that are sharp, seems to have an oversharpened look to it.

On the other hand, I do my macro in manual focus mode and I'm attaining critical sharpness there.

Things change when I switch to using the AF though.

The bulk of my shots with the 7DII, have me using the 400mm f/5.6, as it's my primary lens for birding and wildlife.

I have disabled Zone AF, Large Zone AF, Auto Selection 65 point and generally rely on AF Expansion for my images and strive to place the central focussing point on the creatures eye.
I will select the point I consider relevant to the composition I want.

Drive mode is AI Servo.

My camera is placed on a beanbag as I sit in a bird hide. I shoot at stationary subjects like resting birds or knots in branches etc. I disable hi speed and select one shot and then I press the shutter.

Image after image after image is soft, soft, soft! It's highly frustrating that I can't get the crisp eye on stationary birds, how I am supposed to get that on moving animals!?

So to repeat, I am well aware that I am part of the issue here but certainly this camera should be doing better? Certainly, if one was to judge purely on the reviews, on the behaviour expressed in the manuals and by the comparisons to the 1DX, I should be getting far more satisfaction from this camera?

Like one of the commentators mentioned, I do have the camera in hand and I have shot in excess of 2000 shots and I am not impressed by the results.

Reading this thread, I will dedicate myself to fully understanding the AF system, I will print the manual out and study it like a champ. I will wait for updated firmare that hopefully will sort out minor issues.

But what if all of that, it turns out the body I own is a dud???

 

[FEBS]

Ok, I need help as I'm also not getting the results I expected from the 7DII.

For the record, I'm on my 2nd body, as the first one had issues that was recognised by the outlet where I bought it and exchanged within 3 days for another body.

My reasons for buying a 7Dii was for me to take my action photography, wildlife and birding in particular, to a level my 500D could not attain.
I chose the 7DII based on the vaunted AF system, which I do freely admit that I don't know well enough just yet.

My results are very hit and miss right now and those results that are sharp, seems to have an oversharpened look to it.

On the other hand, I do my macro in manual focus mode and I'm attaining critical sharpness there.

Things change when I switch to using the AF though.

The bulk of my shots with the 7DII, have me using the 400mm f/5.6, as it's my primary lens for birding and wildlife.

I have disabled Zone AF, Large Zone AF, Auto Selection 65 point and generally rely on AF Expansion for my images and strive to place the central focussing point on the creatures eye.
I will select the point I consider relevant to the composition I want.

Drive mode is AI Servo.

My camera is placed on a beanbag as I sit in a bird hide. I shoot at stationary subjects like resting birds or knots in branches etc. I disable hi speed and select one shot and then I press the shutter.

Image after image after image is soft, soft, soft! It's highly frustrating that I can't get the crisp eye on stationary birds, how I am supposed to get that on moving animals!?

So to repeat, I am well aware that I am part of the issue here but certainly this camera should be doing better? Certainly, if one was to judge purely on the reviews, on the behaviour expressed in the manuals and by the comparisons to the 1DX, I should be getting far more satisfaction from this camera?

Like one of the commentators mentioned, I do have the camera in hand and I have shot in excess of 2000 shots and I am not impressed by the results.

Reading this thread, I will dedicate myself to fully understanding the AF system, I will print the manual out and study it like a champ. I will wait for updated firmare that hopefully will sort out minor issues.

But what if all of that, it turns out the body I own is a dud???

2 questions there about:

Did you afma your lens on this body?
Can you post a photo here so that we can look at your problem?

 

[Sabaki]

Ok, I need help as I'm also not getting the results I expected from the 7DII.

For the record, I'm on my 2nd body, as the first one had issues that was recognised by the outlet where I bought it and exchanged within 3 days for another body.

My reasons for buying a 7Dii was for me to take my action photography, wildlife and birding in particular, to a level my 500D could not attain.
I chose the 7DII based on the vaunted AF system, which I do freely admit that I don't know well enough just yet.

My results are very hit and miss right now and those results that are sharp, seems to have an oversharpened look to it.

On the other hand, I do my macro in manual focus mode and I'm attaining critical sharpness there.

Things change when I switch to using the AF though.

The bulk of my shots with the 7DII, have me using the 400mm f/5.6, as it's my primary lens for birding and wildlife.

I have disabled Zone AF, Large Zone AF, Auto Selection 65 point and generally rely on AF Expansion for my images and strive to place the central focussing point on the creatures eye.
I will select the point I consider relevant to the composition I want.

Drive mode is AI Servo.

My camera is placed on a beanbag as I sit in a bird hide. I shoot at stationary subjects like resting birds or knots in branches etc. I disable hi speed and select one shot and then I press the shutter.

Image after image after image is soft, soft, soft! It's highly frustrating that I can't get the crisp eye on stationary birds, how I am supposed to get that on moving animals!?

So to repeat, I am well aware that I am part of the issue here but certainly this camera should be doing better? Certainly, if one was to judge purely on the reviews, on the behaviour expressed in the manuals and by the comparisons to the 1DX, I should be getting far more satisfaction from this camera?

Like one of the commentators mentioned, I do have the camera in hand and I have shot in excess of 2000 shots and I am not impressed by the results.

Reading this thread, I will dedicate myself to fully understanding the AF system, I will print the manual out and study it like a champ. I will wait for updated firmare that hopefully will sort out minor issues.

But what if all of that, it turns out the body I own is a dud???

2 questions there about:

Did you afma your lens on this body?
Can you post a photo here so that we can look at your problem?

Hey FEBS

I have attempted to use every AFMA value from -8 to +8. My very first experience with AFMA so once again, not quite sure if I've nailed.

I'll post some pics when I get home later, sitting at work right now

 

[Loswr]

I have attempted to use every AFMA value from -8 to +8. My very first experience with AFMA so once again, not quite sure if I've nailed.

Random or systematic guessing at an AFMA value is not the way to go about it. Proper testing to determine the optimal AFMA setting is the best approach.

 

[takesome1]

I have disabled Zone AF, Large Zone AF, Auto Selection 65 point and generally rely on AF Expansion for my images and strive to place the central focussing point on the creatures eye.
I will select the point I consider relevant to the composition I want.

I wonder if this may be part of the problem. Using expansion you are using multiple points around the eye.
The compact nature of 65 focus points on a crop camera may very well have points close to the center picking up other parts that are close. Focus points to compact? It feels that way sometimes when shooting with the 7D II.

 

[Steve Balcombe]

I have disabled Zone AF, Large Zone AF, Auto Selection 65 point and generally rely on AF Expansion for my images and strive to place the central focussing point on the creatures eye.
I will select the point I consider relevant to the composition I want.

Drive mode is AI Servo.

My camera is placed on a beanbag as I sit in a bird hide. I shoot at stationary subjects like resting birds or knots in branches etc. I disable hi speed and select one shot and then I press the shutter.

Image after image after image is soft, soft, soft! It's highly frustrating that I can't get the crisp eye on stationary birds, how I am supposed to get that on moving animals!?

Sounds like you are going about this sensibly and methodically, but one key piece of information is missing - if the shots are out of focus as you seem to be implying, where is the camera focusing? If nothing is sharp, it's not a focusing problem.

Also BTW try one shot AF for static shots and see whether there is any difference.

 

[ashmadux]

Right now im looking at a gallery of photos taken at Bh with one of the 70d's on display. Looking promising so far. The 28-135 on it definitely needed AFMA but otherwise iso 6400 shots look usable, there's an appreciable amount of detail as well. iso 320 looks noisy...hmm....but ill definitely need to test in high key lighting scenarios.

Ive basically fallen in love with the fast live view AF, especially when constant af is on...its already focused before you press the trigger...wowo.

I loudly have grabbed one for 650 from canon refurb...argh

PS- Im reading and viewing all the material i can find on the center point focus issue...looks like a real, documented issue that canon may not fix for you. That said, center point focus/recompose is pretty pointless when you have 19 cross type points (IMHO), but hey, do whatcha like

 

[Don Haines]

I have disabled Zone AF, Large Zone AF, Auto Selection 65 point and generally rely on AF Expansion for my images and strive to place the central focussing point on the creatures eye.
I will select the point I consider relevant to the composition I want.

Drive mode is AI Servo.

My camera is placed on a beanbag as I sit in a bird hide. I shoot at stationary subjects like resting birds or knots in branches etc. I disable hi speed and select one shot and then I press the shutter.

Image after image after image is soft, soft, soft! It's highly frustrating that I can't get the crisp eye on stationary birds, how I am supposed to get that on moving animals!?

Sounds like you are going about this sensibly and methodically, but one key piece of information is missing - if the shots are out of focus as you seem to be implying, where is the camera focusing? If nothing is sharp, it's not a focusing problem.

Also BTW try one shot AF for static shots and see whether there is any difference.

I agree. Try the shot as "One shot" and then try the shot as "AI Servo". If it is sharp in one shot and not in AI servo, you may have to send your camera back.... several people have reported this problem.

 

[Sabaki]

I have disabled Zone AF, Large Zone AF, Auto Selection 65 point and generally rely on AF Expansion for my images and strive to place the central focussing point on the creatures eye.
I will select the point I consider relevant to the composition I want.

Drive mode is AI Servo.

My camera is placed on a beanbag as I sit in a bird hide. I shoot at stationary subjects like resting birds or knots in branches etc. I disable hi speed and select one shot and then I press the shutter.

Image after image after image is soft, soft, soft! It's highly frustrating that I can't get the crisp eye on stationary birds, how I am supposed to get that on moving animals!?

Sounds like you are going about this sensibly and methodically, but one key piece of information is missing - if the shots are out of focus as you seem to be implying, where is the camera focusing? If nothing is sharp, it's not a focusing problem.

Also BTW try one shot AF for static shots and see whether there is any difference.

I agree. Try the shot as "One shot" and then try the shot as "AI Servo". If it is sharp in one shot and not in AI servo, you may have to send your camera back.... several people have reported this problem.

Thanks for the advice Steve and Don.

I cycled through Single Point AF, Single Point Spot AF and then tried every permutation of assist points in both Single Shot and AI Servo. Took multiple images with each setup.

Canon contacted me earlier, they will have an answer for me by Thursday morning for the very latest. Apparently.