New Crop/APS-C Prosumer Camera Body in the Fall? [CR1]

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photophreek said:
Stone - all your wishlist 7d features are nice except I'd be really happy with just better ISO performance and Digic V. BTW, the 7d already has a 100% VF.

good catch.

You'd think I should know that since I've owned a 7D since last year, now that I think about it, it's only 100% coverage when attached to a 50mm lens and varies between 98%-99% at other focal lengths but I could be wrong....
 
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D_Rochat said:
Stone said:
The 7D NEEDS an update, I think it would be quite silly of Canon to either not replace it or take it slightly down market. There needs to be an APS-C flagship if Canon is serious about staying with the format.

To be a proper APS-C flagship, the 7DII needs:

  • 100% viewfinder
  • Dual Digic V
  • The same 18MP sensor with improved DR
  • Clean ISO 12,800
  • 10 fps with a decently sized buffer
  • 61 pt AF from the 5DIII
  • The usual video improvements
  • I'd even consider a builtin portrait grip like the 1 series bodies
It would be a dream camera for those who can't afford the 1 series or need the extra reach of APS-C. Charge $2-$2.5K and you have a winner. :)

Those are pretty attractive specs, but your$2-$2.5k idea is nothing more than a pipe dream. Do you really think they'd sell a body for $2k with those specs, especially after how they priced the 5D mark III?

*edit* You forgot f/8 to further canibalize 1D X sales :P

I don't think that any specifications on the 7D MkII would endanger either the 1D X or 5D MkIII; if you're range limited you will want APS-C, for maximum subject isolation and ISO sensitivity you will want full frame. [N.B. I'm not so sure this would have been the case if Canon had produced an APS-H 1D Mk5 (and FF 1Ds Mk5) instead of the 1D X]

Actually, I think that Stone's specifications at roughly that price point are exactly what Canon would do if they were to produce a successor to the 7D.
By moving the 7D MkII up market, they'd free space to move the rest of the APS-C range up as well, which might help with the competition from 'mirrorless' and Sony's aggressively specified (and priced) SLTs.

The other possibility is that Canon and Nikon are planning to amalgamate their two higher APS-C lines into one (like the old Canon XXD bodies -and perhaps hinted at by the lack of a D400 so far). This would enable them to fill the $2000-$2500 price point with an 'entry level' full frame body instead.
 
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If a 7d mkii appears still with weather sealing, with better iso capability and 10 frames per sec, I'm in.

However if the weather sealing gets retracted, I wouldn't buy one... I'd kill it!
 
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I can see this being a 7Dx

18MP APS-C
ISO clsoer to the performance of the 5Dmk3 but not quite as good
8 fps
dual card slots
body/ sealing / button latyout similar to 5Dmk3
61pt AF system same as 5Dmk3 with same metering
no flippy screen

it'll be a weapon and cost $2500+

I think the new rebel will get the old 19pt AF from the 7D
I think canon have learned their lesson about putting in crappy AF systems into otherwise good cameras
 
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D_Rochat said:
Stone said:
The 7D NEEDS an update, I think it would be quite silly of Canon to either not replace it or take it slightly down market. There needs to be an APS-C flagship if Canon is serious about staying with the format.

To be a proper APS-C flagship, the 7DII needs:

  • 100% viewfinder
  • Dual Digic V
  • The same 18MP sensor with improved DR
  • Clean ISO 12,800
  • 10 fps with a decently sized buffer
  • 61 pt AF from the 5DIII
  • The usual video improvements
  • I'd even consider a builtin portrait grip like the 1 series bodies
It would be a dream camera for those who can't afford the 1 series or need the extra reach of APS-C. Charge $2-$2.5K and you have a winner. :)

Those are pretty attractive specs, but your$2-$2.5k idea is nothing more than a pipe dream. Do you really think they'd sell a body for $2k with those specs, especially after how they priced the 5D mark III?...

Stone's price point is not unrealistic. Instead of comparing these specs to what is in the 5DIII and the 1DX, which are completely different formats, a more apt comparison is between these specs and what is already in the 7D.

Competitive pressures are greater on the 7D because it has to appeal to a broader, more competitive and more price sensitive market than either the 5D or the 1Dx. Plus R&D costs on APS-C sensors are spread out over a much more massive customer base than the costs of full frame sensor development. These and other factors work to hold the price down.

Actual details may vary, but Stone's specs are simple and fairly modest evolutionary steps in a model that sold for $1,700 at introduction. Clean ISO to 12,800 may be a bit optimistic, but I guess it depends on whose definition of "clean" you use. I expect to see 1D IV sensor performance in the next 7D and think most people would be happy with an APS-C sensor that performs as well as the previous generation of APS-H. Similarly, autofocus improvements don't have to match the 1Dx, but since the 7D already has strong autofocus, a few improvements to make it more intuitive with modest performance improvements shouldn't be out of the question.

I know a lot of 5D owners are still suffering from sticker shock, but the feature gap between the 5DII and 5DIII is quite massive. The gap between the 7D and 7DII need not be as great, because the 7D was great to begin with and there isn't that much that needs improving.
 
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stilscream said:
really? Your timing is so bad you need more than 2 full seconds of a moment?? Maybe you should just stick to video recording and picking frames out of it. 720 @60fps should give you 1 you like, no?

Congratulations. I thought nothing could make me miss the "Smite" button, but you actually did it.

To *constructively* address Dalepa's problem: As suggested before, the fastest possible memory card may help, but my suggestion is more old fashioned - practice. For every "game day" of bird photography, or sports, or whatever you do, try to have at least a couple of practice days. Do your pro or AAA baseball game on Sunday, but also do some little league on Wednesday and Saturday. Go to the national park for birds or wildlife on the weekend, but also shoot sparrows and squirrels in your backyard a couple of days during the week.

What I'm getting at here is that your buffer jam up a lot less if you shoot single frames and short bursts instead of standing on it. 50% of my work is sports and I use a 7D a lot for that, but filling the buffer is extremely rare for me. Happens to me maybe three or four times a year, and it's usually the post-championship celebration that does it and not the game action.

Most photographers let 8-12 fps motor drives and AF do a lot of work for them. Technology is wonderful, and there's really not much wrong with that. But practicing the skills old farts like me had to learn back in the 80's when there was no AF at all and a "fast" motor drive was 3 fps will kick things up a notch for anybody. Developing your sense of timing and your sense of when movement is *about* to occur will help keep your buffer open and also leave you with a much less daunting editing job after the fact.

Manual focusing skills are especially underrated today. I see a lot of "good enough" autofocused images in the stuff I see from student photographers at the university where I am a contract/event photographer. AF simply doesn't work in certain situations. If I AF'ed all my volleyball, I'd get hundreds of images with the net in perfect focus and the players all slightly fuzzed. Don't get me wrong, I use AF a lot. But sometimes you have to take over yourself to be sure you get the pass receiver's face in focus instead of the strong safety's back.
 
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Stone said:
An APS-C 7D isn't any kind of threat to the 1DX which has the absolute best of everything. People that need a 1 series camera, need a 1 series camera and an attractively spec'ed crop body isn't going to change that.

I disagree. First, you described a 1 series body with the exception of the APS-C and a 7D badge. Some sports photogs may be a little more inclined to lean towards your dream camera because of the extra reach. Some of the better off amateurs who would otherwise buy a 1D X, might go to this fictional 7D because they wouldn't have to spend as much on long lenses. Super tele primes are a little pricey. Others aren't upgrading their 1DIV's because of f/8 and the crop.

All you guys who are saying that Canon could release a body with these specs forget what just happened with the 5D. This forum almost ripped itself apart when we found out what the new 5D offered and how much they wanted for it. Nothing wrong with dreaming, just don't get your hopes up.

And thanks to stilscream for encouraging people to dig up the karma system issue again.....
 
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Maybe they left out f8 autofocus from the 1dx because they are going to add it to the 7d2. Many birders shoot 7d for the AF and crop factor. They are going for all the reach they can. Add 9 f8 AF points to a 7d2 with a 20mp crop sensor and you could have the ultimate long range wildlife camera. 500mm f4 + 2x teleconverter + 1.6 crop = 1600mm + lots of pixels to crop from and you get a rediculous long range wildlife camera.

They could bump the 7d line into a pro level crop camera for those who want the reach, and bump the XXD line closer to where the 7d1 is now.
 
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D_Rochat said:
Stone said:
The 7D NEEDS an update, I think it would be quite silly of Canon to either not replace it or take it slightly down market. There needs to be an APS-C flagship if Canon is serious about staying with the format.

To be a proper APS-C flagship, the 7DII needs:

  • 100% viewfinder
  • Dual Digic V
  • The same 18MP sensor with improved DR
  • Clean ISO 12,800
  • 10 fps with a decently sized buffer
  • 61 pt AF from the 5DIII
  • The usual video improvements
  • I'd even consider a builtin portrait grip like the 1 series bodies
It would be a dream camera for those who can't afford the 1 series or need the extra reach of APS-C. Charge $2-$2.5K and you have a winner. :)

Those are pretty attractive specs, but your$2-$2.5k idea is nothing more than a pipe dream. Do you really think they'd sell a body for $2k with those specs, especially after how they priced the 5D mark III?

*edit* You forgot f/8 to further canibalize 1D X sales :P

simple: if Canon is too cheap and will not deliver a good body for a good price, there is always the alternative: Nikon - they are listening to the consumer's needs and are releasing really good bodies at lower prices than Canon...
 
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dilbert said:
At 6 weeks:
May/June - xxxD
Mid-July - Mirrorless
Late-August - xxD
Early-October - Entry level FF

There are talks of a high pixel count FF camera announced some time this year. So, if we slot that into early December, it'll fit the rumored 6 to 8 weeks announcement of interchangeable lens camera quite nicely.

I feel that one of xxxD and xxD is redundant. xxxD should be fully replaced with mirrorless camera. xxD should just be a one stop solution before converting all DSLRs into FF and confining APS-C to mirrorless cameras. Just MHO.
 
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Here is my wish with a conceptual link to current model names.

APSC
Mirrorless > xxxxD (as a 600D rebrand with Digic V update) > 650D with new sensor and 9/11 point AF all cross point (essentially replacing 60D) > 7D II meeting all Pro requirments (same sensor as 650D)

FF
70D (entroduce as entry level FF: plastic body, elementry AF, maybe current 7D's, 18mp 1DX sensor, 4/5FPS) > 5D > 1D

Thus the single didgets remain pro
The xxD regain purpose and status
Mirrorless becomes entry level

I can see myself getting the FF entryblevel, especially if they add EF-S compatibility. $2,000 while I can continue using that lenses will be managable money wise. I just cannot justify a mark III and I will be honest a mark II is to old for comfort.
 
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All you guys who are saying that Canon could release a body with these specs forget what just happened with the 5D. This forum almost ripped itself apart when we found out what the new 5D offered and how much they wanted for it. Nothing wrong with dreaming, just don't get your hopes up.

Key difference #1: 5DIII is targeted at a very specific professional audience (wedding and event photographers). Most of the complaining on the forum is from people who don't fit that niche and thought they were going to get a mass market camera at a bargain price. 7D is marketed to a much broader and more diverse audience. Canon focuses on its markets and makes cameras that will sell to their target audience;

Key difference #2: Price competition is much more important at the 7D level. More competition, less brand loyalty, less investment in the system;

Key difference #3: 5DII was very dated in some areas (autofocus). Professionals who rely on a 5D could not afford to skip a generation and wait for the 5DIV. 7D is much less dated (still the best APS-C camera made three years into its life). Only minor upgrades are needed. It will be much easier for 7D owners to skip a generation if the next model isn't to their liking.

Key difference #4 (an offshoot of above): The DSLR market has matured and will not grow anywhere near the pace it has grown in the past decade. Manufacturers must shift from concentrating on adding new customers to enticing existing customers to upgrade. Given the high customer satisfaction with the current 7D they have a challenge ahead of themselves to come up with something that will cause current owners to upgrade.

Key difference #5 (also related to 3&4): Upgraders fall into two main categories. The potential 60D user who wants something a bit more robust than the Rebel line but is unlikely to ever buy an "L" lens. These are customers satisfied with a good quality camera that they can use for stills and video and maybe a couple of lenses. Category two are the folks who have decided to get into photography in a big way and have a reasonable amount of disposable income to do so (the classic "enthusiast" or "prosumer.") These are folks who shoot at a high skill level, are prepared to invest in equipment but have no interest or desire to spend $3,000 on a camera. Second category also includes those who practice photography as an offshoot of another hobby (birders, for example).

Key difference #6: The demise of APS-H gives Canon an opportunity to greatly expand the 7D pool at little cost and with small changes. (Comparable sensor quality, modest improvements in build and autofocus). I'm still thinking we could see a 7Dx offered as an option with an integrated grip and other professional features.

In short, Canon is under much more pressure to deliver a 7D II at reasonable cost and their path is much more clear given that the camera doesn't need to be anywhere near as great of an upgrade as the 5DIII was to the 5DII.

And, I promise this. If they don't deliver, I won't be threatening to leave Canon or complaining about how they don't know what they are doing, or how the 7DII is just crap compared to the Nikon. Instead, I'll just keep on using my 7D, maybe buy a second body, and wait for the next generation.
 
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unfocused said:
If they don't deliver, I won't be threatening to leave Canon or complaining about how they don't know what they are doing, or how the 7DII is just crap compared to the Nikon. Instead, I'll just keep on using my 7D, maybe buy a second body, and wait for the next generation.

+1 to a major degree. I'll be disappointed though. I would like to add a potential 7D mkii and have 2 bodies. Other option is to buy a 1d mkiv which I see as the step up currently, or just another 7D. But after already switching to canon, It would be a push for me to go back. I just kinda like the 7D, it works for me extremely well... very extremely well.
 
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Gcon said:
7D is a great body but just has a horrible sensor. If they improve the sensor to remove more noise, it'd be a great little bit of kit.

Horrible sensor??? Compare that to the one in D300s (its main competitor) and you'll find the 7D sensor actually emerges as the better performer. In its time, the 7D sensor is often described as class-leading.

Of course, the Sony 16 MP APS-C sensor has since then taken over the crown. Even the new Sony 24 MP APS-C sensor is a dud when compared to its older 16 MP sibling.

I believe Canon can easily match the high ISO performance of Sony's 16 MP APS-C sensor. It's their low ISO dynamic range that's of greater concern. I have little faith in Canon's ability to produce sensors with better low ISO dynamic range, judging by the poor performance of the 5D3 sensor in this department.
 
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I have to disagree with many on this forum everyone seems to think that everything is going up market that prices have to rise with new features. I couldn't disagree more. The 7D being pro-sumer right now and being the next camera I want to buy I could never imagine spending more than 1900 with that being list price. Even after reading on here that it will have a new generation of sensor some keep saying the 650D will have the same one. This from my understanding will not be true and it makes a lot of sense. For example

Release Order
650D with old 18mp sensor but other upgrades like old 7D AF
Mirorless
7D2 with New sensor dual digic 5 and better AF lets it then stand out above the rest of the lineup and allows a year or longer before the new fancy sensor gets passed down to the rebels.
Big Mega Pixel FF

Back to my original soap box, I don't know what everyone here does for a living but if you move the 7D2 up in price 2000+ then its no longer a consumer camera.
 
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