New speedlites - Am I the only one...

[SPG]

Just out of curiousity, would you recommend PW over Odin. I only ask because I seriously haven't heard one bad thing about odin, but, have heard many complaints with PW's....

Despite my perceived bias against Pocket Wizard, I've used both and I'm not an evangelist for either.

Pocket Wizards are incredibly popular amongst the pros. They're pretty much a standard so you'll see a ton of people using them. When a lot of people use something there's more chance of a negative comment here and there just based on sheer volume. For example, if 1% of compnay Y's triggers are bad and they have 36 million users, then you have 360,000 complaints. If you have 10% of company X's triggers go bad and there's only 100 people using them then you only have 10 complaints even though you are ten times more likely to have a bad one with company X. I'm not saying that is anything close to the failure rate of any brand, just the reality of having a metric craptonne of users out there with internet access. The flipside to this is also that you have a ton of people troubleshooting them and a ton of options to buy or sell them within that ton of users. You can pick them up at most decent camera stores, which means that you can always buy another unit or a replacement without waiting for shipping. PW also tends to be backward compatible so that the ones you buy today should still work with the ones from ten years ago and hopefully with the ones made ten years from now.
My own experience with PW has been that with the PlusII's I could really push the range on a good day and still get consistent performance, but then blow shot after shot at half the distance. That doesn't mean that they were crap, just that the conditions at that time weren't favorable and I couldn't tweak them to work. I haven't had the Odins for long enough to vouch for them in the same conditions, but so far so good. Another benefit of using PW is that everyone else does too, so you can always borrow or rent in a pinch.
Pocket Wizards are good, and I'd say better than most, but like everything they're not perfect. The reason I bought Odins this time was for the convenience of being able to dial in settings remotely and have reliable HSS. If I didn't need HSS or have to make lots of adjustments to hard to reach strobes, I would have bought more Pocket Wizards. As it was I just didn't like the PW flex system so I figured I'd take a chance on the Odins. YMMV.

 

[SPG]

I'd be really surprised if the 590 was compatible with any existing system. Canon isn't exactly known for playing well with others. They still don't release specs of how any of their systems work, or when they change them, so every third party manufacturer has to reverse engineer Canon's system to get their gear to work with it.
That's not to say that Canon won't work with Pocket Wizard, but let's look at recent events...
1. The 580exII radio interference and fried circuit issues with Pocket Wizard. They both saw an issue, yet they wouldn't talk to each other about resolving it.
2. PW just released a new trigger and is really pushing it.
3. PW has to run on different frequencies for sale in the US vs EU.
Those three things would lead one to believe that these two companies aren't working together.

1. This was only a problem fo a very small number of 580s - a problem which also happened without the use of a PW

2. The new PW trigger is not related to the use of eTTL and so would not be of any interest to Canon

3. ALL radio devices run on different frequencies - this is a requirement by the individual countries.

Another case of attacking PW without checking facts first

-1

Another case of attacking my post without bothering to see what point I was making.
I have nothing against Pocket Wizards and like where they're going with the PlusIII's (though I do run Odins now for other reasons). The point I was making which is still valid is that Canon and Pocket Wizard don't even seem to be talking to each other let alone collaborating on using their technology in a new flash. There has been zero indication that this has been even possibly in the works over the last year. Pocket Wizard is moving forward doing their thing, fixing problems with the 580 interference, introducing new models, etc while Canon is working on their own new products, fixing the fried 580's, etc. Considering this reality, having a 590 with PW integration is nothing more than wishful thinking.

-2!

The points you made had no relevence to Canon and PW talking together - just a side swipe at PW.

You may suspect PW and Canon are not talking together, fair enough, but you did not present any evidence or links to support your suspicions

You're just focusing on the fact that I mentioned the 580exII issue and Pocket Wizard. That little episode is actually a really good indicator that the two companies aren't working together. Think about it... PW had to commission their own study and report over it, they even said that they couldn't get Canon to address their concerns, and even their fix for the interference seems to have been ignored by Canon. Doesn't sound like two companies working together, does it?
My second point about the introduction of the PlusIII's is to illustrate that PW is clearly on their own schedule and plan.
The third point about frequency differences is that if you were going to manage an inventory for a global company you'd want to limit the number of SKU's on any product especially if a variance, or even use, would create a legal or regulatory issue.
I'm really not trying to start a pissing match over this. Like I said earlier, I have no grudge against PW, it's just that I don't see PW integration as meshing well with Canon's sales objectives or it's corporate culture. Of course like anyone trying to predict the future without working for either company, it's a lot of speculation.

 

[briansquibb]

The reason I bought Odins this time was for the convenience of being able to dial in settings remotely and have reliable HSS. If I didn't need HSS or have to make lots of adjustments to hard to reach strobes, I would have bought more Pocket Wizards. As it was I just didn't like the PW flex system so I figured I'd take a chance on the Odins. YMMV.

I got my flex PW just because of the automated and optimized HSS which has proven very sucessful.

 

[SPG]

I would be very surprised if Canon did not release optional transmitters and receivers for the 580 EX and for the current DSLRs. Of course, I would expect them to be more expensive than any third party triggers, but I just can't seem them passing up the opportunity.

From Canon's perspective they would look at this from the opposite position: Why would we kill the sales of our new 590 and 5DIII by letting our customers use their old gear?

As evidenced by Magic Lantern, there is a lot that the old cameras can do that Canon does not bother to enable. Remember that they're in the business of selling new cameras, not making old cameras do new things.

Sorry to be throwing water on this, but it just doesn't seem likely that Canon would do something that far outside it's own interests.

It's not outside their interests. Just the opposite.

First, there is nothing in the latest spec list for the 5DIII that says it will have a radio trigger. The 1Dx doesn't have a built in radio trigger in it either as far as I know. So, to fire the new 590 remotely will require a radio trigger for the camera anyway. That's a given. (Yeah, Yeah, I know someone will say that you can use the new speedlite as a trigger. But Canon already offers an infrared trigger to give people an option, so as not to waste a speedlite in that way. They'll do the same with a radio triggered strobe.)

Canon knows that professionals and enthusiasts don't buy just one speedlite. Canon already makes sure that their newest models are backward compatible because they don't want to alienate customers that might be invested already with a half-dozen or more speedlites. I'm sure they'd rather sell receivers for the 580EX series than let a competitor have the business.

It's a no-brainer. Canon will offer receivers and triggers if they offer a radio-controlled speedlite.

What I meant, but didn't make clear (sorry!) was that I don't think that Canon will go with someone else's trigger technology or frequency. Canon prefers a closed system with it's products wherever possible, so yeah...they would come out with a new trigger as well to keep it all in the family. Also, taking a long view from Canon's perspective there is more incentive to migrate users to the rumored Canon trigger system and Speedlights than to accommodate users of third party systems.

 

[briansquibb]

You're just focusing on the fact that I mentioned the 580exII issue and Pocket Wizard.

I think you are misreading my replies as this interpretation cannot be made from my replies. To much smoke and mirrors for me in your words

 

[wickidwombat]

3) the controls on the back of the transmitter are awesome it makes on the fly ettl controls super quick

What kind of controls are on the back?

I am rather tied in to PW at the moment (1 mini and 4 flex)- but doesn't mean I wont add some odins for small scale shooting with two or 3 flash

this video shows it quite well
Phottix Odin Wireless Flash Trigger with ETTL Support

 

[SPG]

You're just focusing on the fact that I mentioned the 580exII issue and Pocket Wizard.

I think you are misreading my replies as this interpretation cannot be made from my replies. To much smoke and mirrors for me in your words

The points you made had no relevence to Canon and PW talking together - just a side swipe at PW.

Another case of attacking PW without checking facts first

-1

If you say so.

 

[briansquibb]

3) the controls on the back of the transmitter are awesome it makes on the fly ettl controls super quick

What kind of controls are on the back?

I am rather tied in to PW at the moment (1 mini and 4 flex)- but doesn't mean I wont add some odins for small scale shooting with two or 3 flash

this video shows it quite well
Phottix Odin Wireless Flash Trigger with ETTL Support

+1 Thanks for that - very interesting and simple

Now back to my PW and see if I can do that as simply

 

[Viggo]

"check facts" Hello, just use google, and see all the problems you find people having with the Flex system, and I PERSONALLY tried to get them to work for over three years, replaced both triggers and flashes at one point, no difference, finally PW returned my money after three years. They wouldn't do that if they didn't know anything was wrong.

"tons of people are using them" Yeah, true dat, but have a look at the pocket wizard blog, you can see pro photographers sponsored by PW, and they use the OC-E3 cable "To get distance between flash and trigger, and to increase the working distance when hiding the flash". I would rather not spend 200 usd on cables for ETTL when the whole point was to use radio, and dangling them off my light stand when moving it around is just not how I want to work.

HOw many firmwares have PW had to try to fix everything since the beginning?? Please, do tell, I know I've had at least 15 (inlc. BETA). But it never fixed anything, in fact, I think the first one work better.

Check out this video posted nearly three years ago, it was one I ignored, because I knew PW were the best brand to get. I was a bit worried, but the radio poppers weren't available in Europe at the time, so PW was my only option.

PocketWizard Flex TT5 Mini TT1 vs. RadioPopper PX Video Review - Part 1 of 8

Makes me sick to see this now and now he was right. But at least, and again, using first firmware, he at least got them to trigger up close. But still had to use that oc-e3 cable...

 

[briansquibb]

"check facts" Hello, just use google, and see all the problems you find people having with the Flex system, and I PERSONALLY tried to get them to work for over three years, replaced both triggers and flashes at one point, no difference, finally PW returned my money after three years. They wouldn't do that if they didn't know anything was wrong.

"tons of people are using them" Yeah, true dat, but have a look at the pocket wizard blog, you can see pro photographers sponsored by PW, and they use the OC-E3 cable "To get distance between flash and trigger, and to increase the working distance when hiding the flash". I would rather not spend 200 usd on cables for ETTL when the whole point was to use radio, and dangling them off my light stand when moving it around is just not how I want to work.

HOw many firmwares have PW had to try to fix everything since the beginning?? Please, do tell, I know I've had at least 15 (inlc. BETA). But it never fixed anything, in fact, I think the first one work better.

Check out this video posted nearly three years ago, it was one I ignored, because I knew PW were the best brand to get. I was a bit worried, but the radio poppers weren't available in Europe at the time, so PW was my only option.

PocketWizard Flex TT5 Mini TT1 vs. RadioPopper PX Video Review - Part 1 of 8

Makes me sick to see this now and now he was right. But at least, and again, using first firmware, he got the at least to trigger up close. But still had to use that oc-e3 cable...

We have had this discussion before and I have just continued to use PW outdoors on location throughout the winter without an issue. I dont use any shields on my remote 580EXs. If they were that bad PW would have gone out of business - this reminds me of the thread about the 'disatrous' 5D2 AF, yet the 5D2 still sold lke hot cakes.

To get a true idea it would be interesting to hear from satisfied users as in general they tend to be the silent majority

I have been watching the training videos by Mark Wallace on the PW site and he is clearly using the mini/flex at a greater distance than suggested in your link. Are we to conclude that the video was faked?

 

[Wrathwilde]

Either the transmitter will be built into the upcoming bodies...

I would have thought the 1DX and 5D3/X would have utilized a radio system, if Canon had planned to release a radio controlled flash.

Here is my take on why we will never see radio trigger flash built into Canon's professional DSLR bodies. A transmitter in the camera would likely generate unwanted noise in electronics when their goal from an image quality stand point is to make the system as noise free as possible. I believe this is also the reason they don't include GPS built in. No electronics in the camera that aren't absolutely essential. It's possible that this is also the reason Canon opts for infrared transceivers instead of radio (not dealing with frequency restrictions across the globe probably weighted equally).

Of course your cheap consumer goods will have all the bells and whistles... convenience, feature envy and marketing to the lowest common denominator (people who don't value quality over quantity of features). Professionals want the cleanest, sharpest, noise free images possible. I may be wrong, I'm not an engineer, but I think it's likely that an in camera radio transmitter would introduce noise in the system.

 

[Maui5150]

So a few thoughts....

#1 - I am the originator of the 590 EX - PW Compatible rumor. I have also stated that I highly doubt Canon will do this, but if they did, I am certain they would sell AT LEAST DOUBLE the number of 590 EX flashes as they would using a proprietary radio.

Why is this? For one, PW has the LARGEST installation / Usage base IN THE WORLD. As an example, I will make this offer to the Odin zealots out there. I will give you $100 for every Odin user if you give me $10 for every PW user. I can tell you now, the check I WOULD RECEIVE would be enough to more than buy all the new bodies AND the new LENSES Canon has out there.

As well, this also opens Canon up to non Canon brands... all of the sudden Pentax, Nikon and other users who have PWs can add the Canon Flash.

#2 I see the comment "there are so many issues and complaints with PW and non for Odin" Seriously? See above. Odin has only been available in the US for a few weeks. I personally have not seen ONE on a store shelf, studio or in the field. I have, however, seen HUNDREDS of PW personally, especially when I was spending time in NY studio. If you have 1 million photographers using PW and a few hundred using Odins, which do you think you will see more blogs or post for... As well... Reading this forum alone, one would think that the 5DMKII was a total piece of crap, and while not perfect, there are a lot of photographers who not only use it regularly, but still love it.

#3 3rd party compatibility. Will Sekonic light meters fire off an Odin. NO. Will Odin trigger a Photogenic PL strobe? No. Norman? No. ProFoto? And yes, you can dangle an Odin off of many of these, but why bother, PW is BUILT IN to many of these monolights, devices, and packs.

#4 You cannot light meter with an Odin. As of right now, you cannot turn off the pre-flash, even in manual. I like to use my light meter, just the same as I spend 90% of my time in M on my camera and maybe 10% split between AV / TV. This pre-flash screws up light metering. True, many just use the histograms on the back, but still a lot of us like to dial in our shots

#5 The 580 issue, which some have experienced and others haven't was an issue with the 580, not the Flex. The 580 was a piece of junk when it comes to shielding and leaking RF, and while many try and blame PW for that, it was really Canon's issue, as well, shooting with a 580 on your hot shoe, that RF leak has the potential to add noise to your shots. Poorly shielded and leaking electronics are generally bad....

We will see what comes out of the 590 EX. If I were Canon, I would make the 590 EX PW compatible because of the HUGE user base for PW, the instant compatibility with brands like Sekonic, ProFoto, Photogenic, and Norman to name a few, the bigger incentive for 580 users to upgrade, as well as the ability for ANY Camera that has a HOT SHOE or Synch connection to be able to fire your flash out of the box. Probably won't happen, but then again, Canon is not necessarily known for brilliant moves, especially if you trust posts on this forum regarding Canon's responsiveness to Canon Design wants and matching Nikon.

 

[Chuck Alaimo]

"check facts" Hello, just use google, and see all the problems you find people having with the Flex system, and I PERSONALLY tried to get them to work for over three years, replaced both triggers and flashes at one point, no difference, finally PW returned my money after three years. They wouldn't do that if they didn't know anything was wrong.

"tons of people are using them" Yeah, true dat, but have a look at the pocket wizard blog, you can see pro photographers sponsored by PW, and they use the OC-E3 cable "To get distance between flash and trigger, and to increase the working distance when hiding the flash". I would rather not spend 200 usd on cables for ETTL when the whole point was to use radio, and dangling them off my light stand when moving it around is just not how I want to work.

HOw many firmwares have PW had to try to fix everything since the beginning?? Please, do tell, I know I've had at least 15 (inlc. BETA). But it never fixed anything, in fact, I think the first one work better.

Check out this video posted nearly three years ago, it was one I ignored, because I knew PW were the best brand to get. I was a bit worried, but the radio poppers weren't available in Europe at the time, so PW was my only option.

PocketWizard Flex TT5 Mini TT1 vs. RadioPopper PX Video Review - Part 1 of 8

Makes me sick to see this now and now he was right. But at least, and again, using first firmware, he at least got them to trigger up close. But still had to use that oc-e3 cable...

Watching this video does not make me want to purchase PW....lol

 

[unfocused]

I would be very surprised if Canon did not release optional transmitters and receivers for the 580 EX and for the current DSLRs...yadda...yadda...yadda.

From Canon's perspective ....yadda...yadda...yadda...but it just doesn't seem likely that Canon would do something that far outside it's own interests.

Yadda....yadda....yadda...It's a no-brainer. Canon will offer receivers and triggers if they offer a radio-controlled speedlite.

What I meant, but didn't make clear (sorry!) was that I don't think that Canon will go with someone else's trigger technology or frequency. Canon prefers a closed system with it's products wherever possible, so yeah...they would come out with a new trigger as well to keep it all in the family. Also, taking a long view from Canon's perspective there is more incentive to migrate users to the rumored Canon trigger system and Speedlights than to accommodate users of third party systems.

Absolutely agree.

Two reasons for me to respond. First, I appreciate it when someone actually reads what I've written and considers it, instead of engaging in drive-by comments. You deserve some good Karma for that.

Second, maybe by changing the subject a bit, I can derail this "Pocket Wizard Good...Pocket Wizard Bad" debate that seems to be going nowhere.

 

[SPG]

As well, this also opens Canon up to non Canon brands... all of the sudden Pentax, Nikon and other users who have PWs can add the Canon Flash.

From a PW user perspective that makes a lot of sense. It would make it easier for people with PW triggers, but what's to stop people who own PW's from buying Canon flashes right now? The flipside of the argument is that if Canon were to use PW technology, then there would probably be some costs involved from PW raising the price of the flash for a feature that people who don't use PW wouldn't want to pay. A closed Canon system lets Canon users get the benefits and gives an easy path to new Canon purchasers as the triggers get built in to new cameras.

re: Odin vs PW...

#3 3rd party compatibility. ...
#4 You cannot light meter with an Odin. ...

Excellent points that anyone buying a trigger system should consider. Depending on how and what you shoot, this could either be a deal breaker or have no impact.

We will see what comes out of the 590 EX. If I were Canon, I would make the 590 EX PW compatible because of the HUGE user base for PW, the instant compatibility with brands like Sekonic, ProFoto, Photogenic, and Norman to name a few, the bigger incentive for 580 users to upgrade, as well as the ability for ANY Camera that has a HOT SHOE or Synch connection to be able to fire your flash out of the box. Probably won't happen, but then again, Canon is not necessarily known for brilliant moves, especially if you trust posts on this forum regarding Canon's responsiveness to Canon Design wants and matching Nikon.

Excellent points from a user perspective, but that doesn't always line up with Canon's interests as the manufacturer. First of all from their viewpoint the PW user base isn't as big as it looks to us. Sure, everyone we know that shoots for a living has a few PW, but the vast majority of Canon's customers do not own PW triggers. For Canon to adopt another company's tech makes them dependent on that company for the long term. What if Nikon buys PW and cancels their contract? What if PW goes out of business? What if PW jacks up the price? It's much easier to use your own system or an established non proprietary standard like 2.4ghz (similar to WiFi) that is accepted internationally.
I completely agree with you that using the PW standard would be great for us, it's just that I don't think it lines up with Canon's own interests and concerns enough for it to actually happen.

 

[SPG]

Absolutely agree.

Two reasons for me to respond. First, I appreciate it when someone actually reads what I've written and considers it, instead of engaging in drive-by comments. You deserve some good Karma for that.

Second, maybe by changing the subject a bit, I can derail this "Pocket Wizard Good...Pocket Wizard Bad" debate that seems to be going nowhere.

Thanks, and sorry for contributing to the derailing of this thread.
Back on topic, or at least a little closer to it...

Canon has had their IR system for a while, and even though it can be used indoors fairly well it seems to be too limited in reliability and capability in too many situations to be widely depended upon for pro use. This brings up the question then that if Canon knew it had limits and issues, why did they adopt it?
My guess is that IR was cheap, free of international regulation, and still offered just enough features to look good in a brochure. Is it possible that the 590 will follow these same guidelines? Does that mean we'll get 2.4ghz since it falls under WiFi which is internationally accepted?

 

[7enderbender]

With the upcoming [CR3] announcements... am I the only one who's equally excited by the idea of a new speedlite with radio signalling built in?? The creative possibilities without spending literally thousands of dollars on expensive ETTL third party triggers - I'm nearly salivating.

Perhaps I'm getting a bit ahead of myself... it is still a rumour!

The only problem I face now is I currently have 3 580 EX IIs - Canon releasing a radio add-on for legacy speedlites really would be wishful thinking, wouldn't it?

I would - I've I believed it. I may be eating my words next week but I really can't see how Canon would have a build in radio trigger solution without getting themselves into a marketing nightmare given the various requirements in different countries, even the potential illegality, the changing of rules at will etc.

Unless it's really based on something that works everywhere like some Wifi standard and I'm not even sure if that is something that is the same and open everywhere for such a purpose.

Notwithstanding, if the things is otherwise improved a bit and comes with a "ready" and or "fired" beep I could see trading up. If not, well, then it may be a great opportunity to add a 580EXII or two for cheap...

 

[wickidwombat]

#4 You cannot light meter with an Odin. As of right now, you cannot turn off the pre-flash, even in manual. I like to use my light meter, just the same as I spend 90% of my time in M on my camera and maybe 10% split between AV / TV. This pre-flash screws up light metering. True, many just use the histograms on the back, but still a lot of us like to dial in our shots

can you elaborate on this a bit more?

 

[jwong]

Thanks, and sorry for contributing to the derailing of this thread.
Back on topic, or at least a little closer to it...

Canon has had their IR system for a while, and even though it can be used indoors fairly well it seems to be too limited in reliability and capability in too many situations to be widely depended upon for pro use. This brings up the question then that if Canon knew it had limits and issues, why did they adopt it?
My guess is that IR was cheap, free of international regulation, and still offered just enough features to look good in a brochure. Is it possible that the 590 will follow these same guidelines? Does that mean we'll get 2.4ghz since it falls under WiFi which is internationally accepted?

Or perhaps cameras will be released with different radio frequency capability for different markets. If so, it would affect the substitutability of getting grey gear.

 

[siebzehn]

If I am not completely wrong the 1DX has the ability to trigger other cameras. This communication canal can also be used to trigger or control flashes (in theory).