canonnews said:neuroanatomist said:
Clearly they are doomed already, it's just a matter of time
+1
I was going to mark my calendar for a FF mirrorless guess but I don't have a 2019 calendar.
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Nikkei: Canon and Nikon to announce mirrorless pro models
- Thread starter Richard CR
- Start date
+1
I was going to mark my calendar for a FF mirrorless guess but I don't have a 2019 calendar.
Two quotes that make it plain as day- why mirrorless from Canon/Nikon, and why now:
Sony also pushes the backs of both companies by pushing out mirrorless and enhancing its presence in the professional market.
Sony’s mirrorless cameras are seen on the rise, and Canon and Nikon need to accelerate plans for a full frame mirrorless camera.
Previous denials from this forum that Sony has anything to do with Canon's plans to announce a mirrorless are astounding.
Sony also pushes the backs of both companies by pushing out mirrorless and enhancing its presence in the professional market.
Sony’s mirrorless cameras are seen on the rise, and Canon and Nikon need to accelerate plans for a full frame mirrorless camera.
Previous denials from this forum that Sony has anything to do with Canon's plans to announce a mirrorless are astounding.
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I was going to mark my calendar for a FF mirrorless guess but I don't have a 2019 calendar.
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just checked my phone and calendar ends December 2037, hence i will mark my calendar 31/12 2037.
now do you think my 1DX2 will still be working? probably yes.
[/quote]
just checked my phone and calendar ends December 2037, hence i will mark my calendar 31/12 2037.
now do you think my 1DX2 will still be working? probably yes.
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efmshark said:
ahsanford said:
These 2 quotes require +>7billion
In all reality, see the weight difference the latest alpha 7s and 5D4.... then tell me that less than 1 lbs of a difference is all the difference in the world to you.... and I will tell you that its time to hit the gym.
The difference in size & weight between a 20lbs ENG camera and a 3.2 lbs DSLR camera (which delivered better IQ) made sense to me. The difference between a 2.3lbs MILC and a 3.2 lbs DSLR is negligible in my opinion.
If anything.... put in a hybrid EVF and call it a day.
Also, that dedicated video line.... biggest mistake by Canon in my opinion. I think Canon would have made a lot more money through upgrades and modular add-ons....
Speaking of that 20lbs ENG camera and people calling a DSLR not the proper form factor... you can always build-up the DSLR with a cage/rig/shoulder-pad, matte box, follow-focus, external monitor, shot-gun mic, gimbal/steadicam, etc. so that it becomes a 20lbs monster, but can you strip down an ENG to be smaller and easier to use?
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transpo1 said:
There are two ways to read that:
1) Sony is a threat to Canon based on market data that says that Canon SLR business is losing sales to Sony mirrorless
OR
2) Sony is simply the company that is establishing FF mirrorless as a legitimately sizeable market. Before the A7/A9 brand, FF mirrorless was a boutique market owned by Leica. Sony changed that. Now Canon sees an opportunity to snatch up that market with Canon know-how, Canon ergonomics, Canon color, Canon lens design, Canon quality, etc.
In either case, yes, Sony will end up being the catalyst that prods Canon and Nikon to move into FF mirrorless. Few would doubt that. If Sony didn't do what Sony did in starting the A7 line, CaNikon might have put FF mirrorless off for even more years down the road. (In that, I agree with you.)
But (1) above implies Canon is finally acting out of desperation, in a Kodak-like existential crisis, etc., while (2) implies now is Canon's time to pluck low-hanging fruit from the tree after Sony burned through explosive amounts of cash commercializing products like Steve Jobs on cocaine to learn what the market wanted. Huge difference. One says endtimes for Canon, the other shows Canon imperiously looming over Sony and saying "All your base are belong to us" as they do what they did with EOS M: put out something underwhelming on paper that still sells brilliantly.
And unless I'm missing something, there's no data to say that (1) is actually happening -- is there? Isn't Sony principally stealing share from other companies than Canon?
- A
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efmshark said:
+ 1
Also if Canon were to develop a FF mirrorless with the EF flange distance, so quite a ‘fat’ body for mirrorless, why not have the current cameras with an interchangeable head. Exchange the pentaprism module for an EVF, the mirror automatically locks up out of the way and the camera behaves just like an overgrown M5. So you can have your cake and eat it; the video people get a proper working viewfinder and the ‘I-want-mirrorless’ crowd get their EVF, , peaking, WYSIWYG, faster frame rates, focus off the chip etc. Once you’ve realised that all that stuff isn’t quite what it’s cracked up to be you can unplug the EVF and replace it with your prism head. Mirror drops down et voila, you’ve a proper camera again.
I don’t believe that heavy weight or lack of it has anything to do with it; I think it’s all about the tangibility.
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transpo1 said:
Personally, I don't find facts astounding...but that's me.
Since Sony didn't have a 1-series competitive model until the a9, that model obviously enhanced their presence in that market. 0 + 1 = 1, even Captain Obvoius can do simple arithmetic.
'Are seen' is perception. The perception in certain media outlets is that Sony's FF MILC are on the rise. The market data do not support that perception, but some news/entertainment outlets don't let reality get in the way of publication. Also note that the second bit of your quote is canonnews' interpretation of the Nikkei article, not a quote from the Nikkei news article. Perception again.
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Sporgon said:
I've said the same thing for making the LCD on the back a modular cartridge like attachment, so you can swap out a fixed screen for a tilty-flippy without needing to offer two body SKUs.
There are technical hurdles/challenges/reasons why this (or your idea) is likely never going to happen, but why they don't do stuff like this is pretty simple. I think they'd like to sell us more than one body.
- A
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transpo1 said:
I think you're putting words into my mouth here. I didn't state it as definitive fact that Sony is on the rise. They are just perceived as such, which is the narrative in the chatter here in these forums and elsewhere.
and you are also quoting a very weak machine translation as well, one in which i didn't even know if i should post it's so obtuse.
If anything the actual evidence shows that Canon is more on the rise than Sony is, and that the real trajectory will be a bad one for the established mirrorless players if Canon decides to take a real run at this niche.
I'd be happy to detail that evidence if you so wish, but it would derail this thread massively
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ahsanford said:
And don't forget ergonomics..... you need somewhere to put knobs and dials.....
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canonnews said:I'd be happy to detail that evidence if you so wish, but it would derail this thread massively
It would fall on blind eyes...
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Don Haines said:
Yep. One of these days I'll upgrade this thing to get down in the weeds a bit.
A full-size body takes so many things they could mess up off the table.
Don't get me wrong, a tiny body would be cool for the 20% of the time I'm okay with some sweet f/2.8 primes between 24 and 40mm :
but for the rest of the time I'd like it if I had a full control set and my hand wasn't cramped, tired, and screaming out for more legroom.- A
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canonnews said:transpo1 said:
I think you're putting words into my mouth here. I didn't state it as definitive fact that Sony is on the rise. They are just perceived as such, which is the narrative in the chatter here in these forums and elsewhere.
and you are also quoting a very weak machine translation as well, one in which i didn't even know if i should post it's so obtuse.
If anything the actual evidence shows that Canon is more on the rise than Sony is, and that the real trajectory will be a bad one for the established mirrorless players if Canon decides to take a real run at this niche.
I'd be happy to detail that evidence if you so wish, but it would derail this thread massively
So, how about starting another thread then?
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transpo1 said:
it is you in denial (yet again).
No-one I recall denied the impact of Sony cameras on the market. What was disputed was claims from yourself and others was the imperative thar Canon had to do it NOW (and that was ages ago) or face obliteration -a claim you have been making for ages. But I guess if you say it long enough and Canon does release one you can claim you were right.
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Maybe like with many cinema cameras (including the C500), there will be a choice of mounts (like EF, and a new one). That wouldn't work out great for a consumer camera, but if it works at the professional cinema level, why not the professional stills/video hybrid level?
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tmroper said:
This idea has been kicked around as well.
My take on offering a thin mount and EF mount setup -- it would work fine if:
- Canon announces both models on the same day.
- Canon opened with "We aren't going to remake EF in this thinner mount. You'll get a few smaller f/4 zooms and wide f/2.8 primes and that's it. For the rest, use the adaptor." (i.e. you have been warned -- don't put all your eggs in this mirrorless basket.)
- Canon reassures EF users that all is well and EF will live on as the Company's flagship lens portfolio.
That could work.
If you don't do the above and release just one model with a thin mount and wait for market pressure to make you put out an EF one, too much damage may be done in the interim. Foolish young/impulsive people will have horrific stories of flipping all their gear too soon, feel buyers' remorse, etc. and existing EF users might panic that EF is to Canon what the A mount is to Sony.
Canon should make a clear decision on the mount, frame up their future plans and help buyers opt-in with confidence.
But this post won't make sense to some folks who see the new mount as Canon's only future i.e. a thin mount = Canon will rebuild all of EF in this smaller mount, which will take 20 years just to replace what they already have and it won't be fundamentally better or smaller.
- A
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unfocused
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ahsanford said:
I would agree with your first point, but not the second two.
Canon could offer both choices, as with the 5Ds series, but would have to announce both at the same time.
Making some public announcement limiting future lens development would be a huge mistake. It could negatively impact sales and, if mirrorless takes off to the degree that some on this forum fantasize that it will, then they would certainly offer more lens choices in the future.
Anyone who is in the market for a full frame camera ought to be smart enough to know that lenses are not announced quickly. I do think Canon would have to initially offer a wide to short telephoto zoom (24-70 or 24-105 range.) Maybe one normal prime. And, maybe a moderate telephoto zoom (70-200 f4?) With that, they could be then take their time and see if the market grows and if there is demand.
There is no reason to reassure EF lens owners. Obviously Canon isn't going to be abandoning the EF mount anytime in the foreseeable future. It is not as though the 6D, 5D or 1Dx lines won't continue for at least two or three more generations at a minimum. Again, limiting your options at the outset would be shortsighted because who can predict what the future holds.
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Don Haines said:
The perception that mirrorless is so much smaller - or should be - comes mainly from the fact that most small mirrorless cameras are APS-C or m4/3rds. When you get to FF, it won't be much smaller. And if you are looking at a pro or high-end camera, I think bigger will be the only popular way to go. Even the high-end m4/3rds Olympus E-M1 is not small and has much more of a DSLR build and size. It seems obvious that once you get into fast lenses or big zooms, you need a fairly large body. I can't see anyone making a FF body that will ignore those consumers that buy those lenses.
I can see, however, two lines of FF Mirrorless cameras - one EF and one ??
As to why mirroless rather than DSLR - even at exactly the same size - for me it's all about the WYSIWIG EVF. Once I bought my first mirrorless (Olympus E-M1) I was hooked on the EVF, even if their are shortcomings. If you are shooting action - of course, the OVF is better. I'm not. Nor do I care about the far more AF points and much wider coverage, but some do. I have no need of greater FPS, but some do.
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According to the post on the DPR website, mirrorless sales were down in December/ January and SLR sales were slightly up.
Mirrorless is NOT taking over SLR sales anytime soon, so perhaps Canon and Nikon may be wasting money on a dying horse.
I have a 5d3 and an M5 and while I like my M5, nothing can really substitue for a good DSLR.
I do hope Canon looks at the Hasselblad mirrorless when designing their new FF mirrorless though, as this is about the most comfortable of all the mirrorless cameras that I've tried, and when you are holding a camera in your hand for 8+ hours at a stretch, hand comfort is very important, to me at least.
A thin grip with a heavy lens is the last thing I would want to use.
Mirrorless is NOT taking over SLR sales anytime soon, so perhaps Canon and Nikon may be wasting money on a dying horse.
I have a 5d3 and an M5 and while I like my M5, nothing can really substitue for a good DSLR.
I do hope Canon looks at the Hasselblad mirrorless when designing their new FF mirrorless though, as this is about the most comfortable of all the mirrorless cameras that I've tried, and when you are holding a camera in your hand for 8+ hours at a stretch, hand comfort is very important, to me at least.
A thin grip with a heavy lens is the last thing I would want to use.
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dak723 said:
You'd think that, but Sony repeatedly poops on that notion (as well as itself) when it continues to do this with each generation of A7 product (see pic).
And they are not the only ones: compare an EOS M1 (the original M model) vs. an M5. Even with a common mount and sensor size, form factor can vary wildly.
- A
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