Nikon D4 gets it right on movie mode!.....will Canon strike back?

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Those are some good features on the part of the D4, but what about the 1D X's full-sensor sampling (to reduce moire)? Those D4 features won't obviate the need to get a replacement anti-aliasing filter (at best) if it's not binning on par with the 1D X.

Other than that, though, Nikon deserves credit for the new memory card format (assuming it's ready for prime time, but the minimum transfer rate specs look pretty darn good compared to CF) and especially the uncompressed HDMI (I guess lacking that was the cost to Canon of the binning - maybe no CPU horsepower left to do it).

It would be interesting if the decision from each manufacturer was to either trade away uncompressed HDMI output or to forego full-sensor sampling (I would expect one of these would take more CPU time than the other, but wouldn't be surprised if each was CPU intensive enough that it essentially foreclosed implementing the other feature within the CPU and power budget).
 
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sb said:
Cinematographers generally don't care about auto-focus with video, because it's a lot like using "auto" exposure mode on your SLR - you're completely giving up creative control. Sometimes you want to go in and out of focus on purpose, or perhaps you want a scene to be completely defocused. But most importantly, there is a lot of beauty that comes from the particular way you transition from "out of focus" to "in focus". You make that visual decision and this simply cannot be automated to look the way you want it to look.

Couldn't have said it better myself.

When you look at the specs the ONLY thing that i can see that can be classified as a bonus to a cinematographer is the clean HDMI.

And thats only really if you are using the HDMI monitor for focus pulling. Most of the video guys i know still rely on things such as the Z Finder and just use the HDMI for playback on the external monitor.

*Now if Canon can make the HDMI resolution independent to the internal screen and have both "ON" that would be a much better solution.
 
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VerbalAlchemy said:
Perhaps there should be a moratorium on the "but video is really secondary and I could do without it" talk, at least in threads with video-centric titles. This perspective has been voiced (with few points that elaborate on the base idea but many that demonstrate biased thinking) so often as to be implicit. The world knows some of you could care less about video, that you're all about stills. The argument now goes without saying.

The original poster is clearly interested in video, and anyone could see as much from the thread's title alone. Nonetheless, his original talking points have been only indirectly acknowledged. I don't understand why the anti-video perspectives hijack so many threads. It's not like pushing the "we don't care about video" agenda in the CR forums is going to dramatically sway Canon's thinking, especially since most of the arguments rely on anecdotal experience or emotional reasoning. Moreover, it's not like improvements in stills AND video are mutually exclusive. Allowing a "what do you think of this video feature" thread to evolve without anti-video interference will NOT change Canon's thinking. If there's some evidence that Canon's stills technology is lagging because the company has redirected too much R&D to video, then perhaps there's a valid gripe-- but I don't often see this sort of argument. I also doubt that it's the case.

Is the HDSLR video revolution a little played out? Given the surplus of shallow DOF fetish videos and time lapse movies on YouTube, sure. But this doesn't invalidate the entire enterprise so much as attest to an age-old truth: better tools won't necessarily make an unimaginative person more creative. But the technology is used in innovative and engaging ways by many, including some for whom traditional camcorders would be inadequate and non-DSLR large-sensor video cameras prohibitively expensive. Plus, some people actually prefer (notwithstanding "limitations" that require elaborate rigging) the DSLR form factor for video-- something the DSLR-inspired design of the C300 demonstrates. In short, video is here to stay. If someone has a more substantial criticism than "SLRs are supposed to be for STILLS, darn it," that's one thing. But a lot of the commentary fails to evolve beyond this (not altogether cogent) idea.

As for the OP's original point, I think Canon will have to reassess the clean HDMI output-- but if they weren't convinced the C300 required it, I'm skeptical that this move by Nikon will force Canon's hand. That said, the fact that the EOS division has to negotiate a bit with Canon's broadcast division seems to give Nikon some relative flexibility, at least for the present. That latitude could allow Nikon to aggressively pursue some things that Canon has been sheepish about. I'm still uncertain about Canon's likely response, though. In certain ways, the C300 is less impressive on paper (at least for the price) than the FS100, let alone the F3 or Scarlet. The reviews, however, have suggested that Cinema EOS is a pretty impressive new system, it's lowly 8-bit codec notwithstanding. If Canon is similarly confident that 1DX vs. D4 tests will bear out the merits of their product, then I doubt they'll change anything for now. The photographers at whom these cameras are targeted won't buy cameras based on specs alone, since virtually all of them will have glass investments to consider and enough experience to know that press releases don't translate into the best product.

+1

Well said
 
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Edwin Herdman said:
Other than that, though, Nikon deserves credit for the new memory card format (assuming it's ready for prime time, but the minimum transfer rate specs look pretty darn good compared to CF) and especially the uncompressed HDMI (I guess lacking that was the cost to Canon of the binning - maybe no CPU horsepower left to do it).

Isn't binning is a rather cheap operation in terms of CPU cycles?
 
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To be honest after seeing the D4 feature, I feel wanna switch.

But looking at the positive side and my faith in Canon which generally well known with its movie making capabilities and HDSLR : I think a new (maybe) Cinema EOS DSLR will able beat D4 in term of recording. I knew D4 is great, but Canon can do better.



Just my belief.
 
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M.R.Rafsanjani said:
To be honest after seeing the D4 feature, I feel wanna switch.

But looking at the positive side and my faith in Canon which generally well known with its movie making capabilities and HDSLR : I think a new (maybe) Cinema EOS DSLR will able beat D4 in term of recording. I knew D4 is great, but Canon can do better.



Just my belief.

I agree the D4 seem like a great machine. However I still think for still the 1DX will be better (and hopefully match the D4 in high ISO performance). I dont know enought about video to comment, but I am confident about the still portion!

8)
 
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thepancakeman said:
I love still photography. I love taking pictures that look good as poster size prints. But I am not everybody else. And for better or worse, the world is changing. People don't have photo albums they have flickr pages and facebook. They don't read books, they wait for the movie. They think a quality MP3 player is the pinacle of audio fidelity. And people want video with their SLRs. The times they are a-changin', and if we don't adapt with them....well I think I can sum it up like this: Kodak. :-\
Best post in this thread, IMO.
 
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JR said:
M.R.Rafsanjani said:
To be honest after seeing the D4 feature, I feel wanna switch.

But looking at the positive side and my faith in Canon which generally well known with its movie making capabilities and HDSLR : I think a new (maybe) Cinema EOS DSLR will able beat D4 in term of recording. I knew D4 is great, but Canon can do better.



Just my belief.

I agree the D4 seem like a great machine. However I still think for still the 1DX will be better (and hopefully match the D4 in high ISO performance). I dont know enought about video to comment, but I am confident about the still portion!

8)

I read somewhere (I think NR) D4 might make the videographers change their mind not just because the the HD video recording, but the high ISO performance during the recording <seems some claims that ISO performance in Canon HD recording still poor, I don't know about this due to lack of exp.>.

What's your opinions guys?
 
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I'm no expert here, but I happen to think that on the video front, the D4's AF abilities will be a greater advantage than all this uncompressed video-out stuff. Here is my logic: the market for the 1D X's video features is primarily from photojournalists that need a video capable camera for mixed media reporting. These people are (like myself) less interested in the technicalities of cinematography and more concerned about the ease with which they can shoot a video for consumption on their news outlet's website. AF in video would be a boon to these people, as it's one less new skill for them learn.

For the people out there who are looking for a cheap, large sensor video camera for indie movie production, I think that Canon's new video-DSLR will be more tailored to their requirements.
 
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traveller said:
I'm no expert here, but I happen to think that on the video front, the D4's AF abilities will be a greater advantage than all this uncompressed video-out stuff. Here is my logic: the market for the 1D X's video features is primarily from photojournalists that need a video capable camera for mixed media reporting. These people are (like myself) less interested in the technicalities of cinematography and more concerned about the ease with which they can shoot a video for consumption on their news outlet's website. AF in video would be a boon to these people, as it's one less new skill for them learn.

For the people out there who are looking for a cheap, large sensor video camera for indie movie production, I think that Canon's new video-DSLR will be more tailored to their requirements.

+1 well said. I totally agree with you.
 
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etto72 said:
-Full-time AF - In addition to manual focus, four modes are available, including normal, wide area, face detection and subject tracking, which uses fast contrast detect AF to accurately focus while recording video and in live view.

On paper this represents a real leap forward in Dslr movie making: Expanding possibility for experienced cinematographer but also helping still photographer(weddings,ceremony,journalist etc.) shooting movie on the fly without getting stacked with manual focus issues

"Fast contrast detect AF" is surely a contradiction in terms. It might prove to be "less slow" but I feel sure it won't be "fast" by any comparison with phase detect AF. Remember that contrast detect AF cannot focus-track on moving subjects.

If you're expecting Nikon's AF system to lock immediately when panning from one focus distance to another, thereby eliminating the intervening period of non-focus, prepare to be disappointed.
 
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HurtinMinorKey said:
5D Freak said:
Tell me if I'm wrong, but I read the D4 video specs and it says 1080i (not 1080p) for uncompressed readout. I'm not a video man, but I think this could be a snag for some.

I think its the separate RGB channels that are interlaced at a higher frame rate. This may be done to reduce motion artifacts.


Can u pls explain a bit more,? thank u.
1080i won't be giving the same image as 1080p. then whats the advantage we got from D4, i know uncompresses thing, but does really improve the quality over 1080p+H.264?
 
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VerbalAlchemy said:
Perhaps there should be a moratorium on the "but video is really secondary and I could do without it" talk, at least in threads with video-centric titles. This perspective has been voiced (with few points that elaborate on the base idea but many that demonstrate biased thinking) so often as to be implicit. The world knows some of you could care less about video, that you're all about stills. The argument now goes without saying.

The original poster is clearly interested in video, and anyone could see as much from the thread's title alone. Nonetheless, his original talking points have been only indirectly acknowledged. I don't understand why the anti-video perspectives hijack so many threads. It's not like pushing the "we don't care about video" agenda in the CR forums is going to dramatically sway Canon's thinking, especially since most of the arguments rely on anecdotal experience or emotional reasoning. Moreover, it's not like improvements in stills AND video are mutually exclusive. Allowing a "what do you think of this video feature" thread to evolve without anti-video interference will NOT change Canon's thinking. If there's some evidence that Canon's stills technology is lagging because the company has redirected too much R&D to video, then perhaps there's a valid gripe-- but I don't often see this sort of argument. I also doubt that it's the case.

Is the HDSLR video revolution a little played out? Given the surplus of shallow DOF fetish videos and time lapse movies on YouTube, sure. But this doesn't invalidate the entire enterprise so much as attest to an age-old truth: better tools won't necessarily make an unimaginative person more creative. But the technology is used in innovative and engaging ways by many, including some for whom traditional camcorders would be inadequate and non-DSLR large-sensor video cameras prohibitively expensive. Plus, some people actually prefer (notwithstanding "limitations" that require elaborate rigging) the DSLR form factor for video-- something the DSLR-inspired design of the C300 demonstrates. In short, video is here to stay. If someone has a more substantial criticism than "SLRs are supposed to be for STILLS, darn it," that's one thing. But a lot of the commentary fails to evolve beyond this (not altogether cogent) idea.

As for the OP's original point, I think Canon will have to reassess the clean HDMI output-- but if they weren't convinced the C300 required it, I'm skeptical that this move by Nikon will force Canon's hand. That said, the fact that the EOS division has to negotiate a bit with Canon's broadcast division seems to give Nikon some relative flexibility, at least for the present. That latitude could allow Nikon to aggressively pursue some things that Canon has been sheepish about. I'm still uncertain about Canon's likely response, though. In certain ways, the C300 is less impressive on paper (at least for the price) than the FS100, let alone the F3 or Scarlet. The reviews, however, have suggested that Cinema EOS is a pretty impressive new system, it's lowly 8-bit codec notwithstanding. If Canon is similarly confident that 1DX vs. D4 tests will bear out the merits of their product, then I doubt they'll change anything for now. The photographers at whom these cameras are targeted won't buy cameras based on specs alone, since virtually all of them will have glass investments to consider and enough experience to know that press releases don't translate into the best product.

Well said.
 
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wickidwombat said:
D.Sim said:
On paper, on paper... I'd rather wait for the real things to come out before we judge which one got it right...

Either way, dSLRs are first and foremost for stills, I'd rather they get the stills right rather than the movie mode. That one is just an added benefit imo, and I'd be way happier if Canon didn't "strike back" here, but came back arms swinging on the stills side - more accurate (and faster) AF (especially in low light), good ISO performance, sharper images...

agreed. however they are so close that both canon and nikon shooters who have so much invested in glass that they wont be switching brands

My thoughts exactly
 
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ssrdd said:
HurtinMinorKey said:
5D Freak said:
Tell me if I'm wrong, but I read the D4 video specs and it says 1080i (not 1080p) for uncompressed readout. I'm not a video man, but I think this could be a snag for some.

I think its the separate RGB channels that are interlaced at a higher frame rate. This may be done to reduce motion artifacts.

Can u pls explain a bit more,? thank u.
1080i won't be giving the same image as 1080p. then whats the advantage we got from D4, i know uncompresses thing, but does really improve the quality over 1080p+H.264?

Start at the top of page 13. This explains how the canon-c300 uses a faster frame-rate interlaced set to produce 1080p. I presume the D4 will do something similar.

http://learn.usa.canon.com/app/pdfs/white_papers/EOS_C300_New_35mm_CMOS_Sensor_WP.pdf
 
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VerbalAlchemy said:
As for the OP's original point, I think Canon will have to reassess the clean HDMI output-- but if they weren't convinced the C300 required it, I'm skeptical that this move by Nikon will force Canon's hand. That said, the fact that the EOS division has to negotiate a bit with Canon's broadcast division seems to give Nikon some relative flexibility, at least for the present. That latitude could allow Nikon to aggressively pursue some things that Canon has been sheepish about. I'm still uncertain about Canon's likely response, though. In certain ways, the C300 is less impressive on paper (at least for the price) than the FS100, let alone the F3 or Scarlet. The reviews, however, have suggested that Cinema EOS is a pretty impressive new system, it's lowly 8-bit codec notwithstanding. If Canon is similarly confident that 1DX vs. D4 tests will bear out the merits of their product, then I doubt they'll change anything for now. The photographers at whom these cameras are targeted won't buy cameras based on specs alone, since virtually all of them will have glass investments to consider and enough experience to know that press releases don't translate into the best product.

I agree with everything you're saying, but I'm wondering about the whole clean HDMI output and if HD-SDI makes it pointless......
 
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