Nikon Releases Z 800mm at 1/3 Cost of Canon’s

[scyrene]

You’re telling me that anecdotes and inference aren’t data, and yet you’re presenting your own as conjecture. I don’t have the data—do you? I’m making assumptions based on observations; these three massive companies are scrambling early for wildlife/sports/PJs and the only conclusion I arrive at is because it makes them loads of money. We buy roughly the same products, so when they release superteles and fast pro bodies, that’s the market we’re talking about here. It’s their top-tier products…

I wouldn't characterise it as 'scrambling'. If the wildlife market was so important, why no 7D3 or mirrorless equivalent? Why no successor to the D500?

 

[Deleted member 387325]

That’s one possible interpretation. I’m not sure it’s a logically defensible position that Canon did a half assed job on products for a market segment they really care about. If they cared about it, they would’ve designed those expensive supertele lenses for RF with control rings, a seamless look instead of an obviously bolted-on adapter, and probably a new color of ‘white’ paint, and done so alongside the early FF MILC bodies instead of doing a rush job three years later.

A more likely scenario is that they did the bare minimum to appease a small number of users of their high-end gear, because that niche market is not viewed as a priority for them.

Now we’re talking. We agree on this. And a lot of people believe it’s a mistake, including myself. And it’s not the wildlife niche alone, it’s the supertelephoto niche which includes wildlife, sports, photojournalists. They rushed out a mediocre product and the other brands have not, so they’ll lose some business. Their market research obviously indicates it’s not a priority for them but time will tell; they don’t always get it right. Personally, as a member of this niche, I’m going to spend my money with a company that prioritizes the niche, however, not one that puts out an inferior product and charges more for it. To each their own, I guess. We’ll see how it works out over time.

 

[Deleted member 387325]

I wouldn't characterise it as 'scrambling'. If the wildlife market was so important, why no 7D3 or mirrorless equivalent? Why no successor to the D500?

Again, more selective hearing on the niche thing. It’s not just wildlife photographers we’re talking here, it’s anyone that uses supertelephoto lenses and the fast, higher end bodies. Same market. They rushed their entire supertele line out.

 

[dolina]

I worked for a venture capital firm. Sometimes my bird photography reminds me of that.

View attachment 203032

Now that's the sort of bird photography I'd want to get into.

"Nature is metal" type of shots so I can post it online to give the peacenicks hippie types a heart attack.

If WBCP & PBPF members saw this photo they'd accuse you off staging this photo. From my point of view... who the ****** cares but these nutjobs.

BBC, National Geographic, Discovery, etc stage things all the time to follow a certain narrative. Because without a story how would the audience understand in as simple a manner as possible?

Crazy people with so many hang ups over the most simple of things.

My birding experience taught me to really hate environmentalists. They're a bunch of shyster-like prostitutes desperate for donations even from "evil corporations" and "evil rich people" to fund their "research" to count the birds. The irony and hyprocacy makes it really funny.

They do not have the balls to offend their donors by telling the truth... if you really want to save the environment or the last 5 breeding pair of any animal just have 1 kid at most.

Having a Filipino-sized family means 4 kids or more... which results in more consumer demand for basic physiological needs that is normally extracted from wildlife habitats that are turned into industrial agricultural lands, woodlands turned into lumber yards, mountains turned into quarries for building materials, etc will put more pressure to produce these goods for these up to 85 year long carbon footprints.

"Liberating" your photos for fund raisings and other BS because they be slumming it with their digiscope setups. It's my intellectual property and it is my right to say how it be used regardless of the moral and ethinical ideas they try to impose on the photographer.

This is also one point I learned from starting birding at under 30... if you want to start a family do that instead of birding. The CIPA market research for bird & wildlife photography points to retirees mostly doing this activity. Looking back I agree with them.

 

[entoman]

Very interesting how many respond to a post about a non-Canon product.
Seems the Nikkor PF 800 was the right kick into the anthill.

If CR puts up a post about Nikon, it would be very strange indeed if people didn't respond!

And it's hardly surprising that there has been a large response, and that in general people are praising Nikon for introducing highly desirable products for realistic prices, whereas Canon are tarting up old glass by adding a converter, and trying to rip customers off with unjustified high prices.

It's absolutely great news for Nikon users. It'll tempt quite a lot of Canon users who don't want to lug around gigantic lenses or pay crazy prices. And hopefully it will give Canon a very hard and fully deserved kick up the rear, and force them to introduce similar products at fair prices. Long-standing Canon customers deserve better than to be milked like this.

 

[dolina]

Again, more selective hearing on the niche thing. It’s not just wildlife photographers we’re talking here, it’s anyone that uses supertelephoto lenses and the fast, higher end bodies. Same market. They rushed their entire supertele line out.

Wildlife & bird photography specific concerns only became a R&D spend priority as marketing of all companies are trying raise sales of said items.

The key demo of these gear is still working photographers and photo news agencies as they buy on a schedule and in quantity. This is a primary market.

Those shooting fauna are just a niche sideline.

 

[Deleted member 387325]

Wildlife & bird photography specific concerns only became a R&D spend priority as marketing of all companies are trying raise sales of said items.

The key demo of these gear is still working photographers and photo news agencies as they buy on a schedule and in quantity. This is a primary market.

Those shooting fauna are just a niche sideline.

I agree with you on the sports and news agencies being the biggest target in this overall niche that uses superteles. They have the numbers. But as we’re seeing that’s shifting, as well. The flagships used to be sports-specific models and now they’re bumped for the all-rounder jack of all trades. Even so, sports and news agencies are still massive buyers on schedules as you mentioned. And they will certainly be evaluating who is offering the best products at the best prices, overall systems, and which company will take care of them. We’ve seen a lot of Sony announcements with said agencies so Canon has lost a step there. Decisions like these, to rush out their supertele lineup and charge a fortune for them—much lower value at a much higher cost comparatively—will not help them with those relationships. And if they’re not taking the overall telephoto niche seriously, that certainly won’t help those relationships either. We’ll see how it all plays out; I think it’s a foolish move, personally.

 

[entoman]

Those shooting fauna are just a niche sideline.

I can't remember where I read this, so don't expect a link, but there was a user survey just a few months back that indicated that animal photographers were the largest sector of users.

Admittedly, that will include pets as well as wildlife, but it was clearly stated that animal photographers outnumbered sports, portraits, landscape, travel and other categories. Hardly a niche sideline.

It's certainly true that agencies and rental companies buy a lot of supertelephotos for PJ, and for use at major sports events, but an equally high number are probably bought by affluent birders and wildlife photographers. Just pay a visit to a hide at a local nature reserve, and look at the glass being used.

 

[dolina]

I agree with you on the sports and news agencies being the biggest target in this overall niche that uses superteles. They have the numbers. But as we’re seeing that’s shifting, as well. The flagships used to be sports-specific models and now they’re bumped for the all-rounder jack of all trades. Even so, sports and news agencies are still massive buyers on schedules as you mentioned. And they will certainly be evaluating who is offering the best products at the best prices, overall systems, and which company will take care of them. We’ve seen a lot of Sony announcements with said agencies so Canon has lost a step there. Decisions like these, to rush out their supertele lineup and charge a fortune for them—much lower value at a much higher cost comparatively—will not help them with those relationships. And if they’re not taking the overall telephoto niche seriously, that certainly won’t help those relationships either. We’ll see how it all plays out; I think it’s a foolish move, personally.

In all honesty I think Canon knows their business better than any talking head on any photo forum.

The RF system is designed to the T for their key account's requirements.

Z 800mm is a pleasant surprise for individual bird & wildlife photographer. It addresses the cost and weight concerns of said shooters

That lens may be 1/3rd too dark for indoor venues for the Olympics though.

 

[Deleted member 387325]

In all honesty I think Canon knows their business better than any talking head on any photo forum.

The RF system is designed to the T for their key account's requirements.

Z 800mm is a pleasant surprise for individual bird & wildlife photographer. It addresses the cost and weight concerns of said shooters

That lens may be 1/3rd too dark for indoor venues for the Olympics though.

So companies don’t miscalculate and make mistakes? If that were the case most of the conversation in forums such as this would be worthless. Maybe we should all just blindly accept whatever these companies put out; pick a brand and just loyally purchase whatever has that name on it. After all, the mighty business with its market research knows us all better than we do. BTW there’s a awful lot of conversation happening about this all over the place, so the “one talking head” comment is a little misinformed

 

[dolina]

I can't remember where I read this, so don't expect a link, but there was a user survey just a few months back that indicated that animal photographers were the largest sector of users.

Admittedly, that will include pets as well as wildlife, but it was clearly stated that animal photographers outnumbered sports, portraits, landscape, travel and other categories. Hardly a niche sideline.

It's certainly true that agencies and rental companies buy a lot of supertelephotos for PJ, and for use at major sports events, but an equally high number are probably bought by affluent birders and wildlife photographers. Just pay a visit to a hide at a local nature reserve, and look at the glass being used.

Is this a Canon/Nikon/Sony/CIPA initiated market survey or some photo forum user trying to strike up a conversation of what sort of photography other forum member does?

I've seen the actual industrial market surveys and wildlife/bird photography is but an outcrop and other application of these long fast lenses.

Who knows... when people treat pets like baby boys and baby girls then perhaps buying a 800mm to take a photo of Fido is the future?

The marketing behavior of Canon/Nikon for wildlife & bird photography tells me that it isn't a priority market relative to photo news agencies, et al.

 

[dolina]

So companies don’t miscalculate and make mistakes? If that were the case most of the conversation in forums such as this would be worthless. Maybe we should all just blindly accept whatever these companies put out; pick a brand and just loyally purchase whatever has that name on it. After all, the mighty business with its market research knows us all better than we do.

The absurdity of your absolutism makes me understand why the "niche" was mentioned.

Take a chill pill. It's just gear and not your left nut that we are talking about.

Based on my experience with dozens of EF L lenses and nearly a dozen EF bodies I think the RF system is great.

The Z 800mm is a lens I wish it came out in 2008. $6.5k at less than 2.4kg at a comprimise of 1/3rd less light is a dream come true. Instead of 4 EF800mm used in the Philippines I could imagine 4 dozen with the Z 800mm

 

[entoman]

I've seen the actual industrial market surveys and wildlife/bird photography is but an outcrop and other application of these long fast lenses.

Then please provide a link. If you can't, then your speculation is no better than mine or anyone else's.

 

[Deleted member 387325]

Then please provide a link. If you can't, then your speculation is no better than mine or anyone else's.

I’d really like to see this data, as well. I see a lot of talk and people writing off market segments as small, but I don’t recall seeing recent data to back that up. I’m genuinely curious. It would be especially interesting considering the shift to more a enthusiasts/professionals heavy lineup with phones eating into the lower tiers.

 

[Deleted member 387325]

The absurdity of your absolutism makes me understand why the "niche" was mentioned.

Take a chill pill. It's just gear and not your left nut that we are talking about.

Based on my experience with dozens of EF L lenses and nearly a dozen EF bodies I think the RF system is great.

The Z 800mm is a lens I wish it came out in 2008. $6.5k at less than 2.4kg at a comprimise of 1/3rd less light is a dream come true. Instead of 4 EF800mm used in the Philippines I could imagine 4 dozen with the Z 800mm

Perfectly chill over here. Gear is fun to discuss; you’ve posted in here probably more than anyone so you know as well as I do. No need to devolve and talk about losing nuts here.

 

[dolina]

Then please provide a link. If you can't, then your speculation is no better than mine or anyone else's.

I gave it a college try but I'm having difficulty finding CIPA PDF file that I read about half a decade ago.

If I knew I was going to be grilled in this manner I would have bookmarked it for your specific pleasure.

By the manner of your reply my guess is you're not that into reading industrial reports?

 

[entoman]

If I knew I was going to be grilled in this manner I would have bookmarked it for your specific pleasure.

If you make unsubstantiated claims, expect to be "grilled".

 

[AlanF]

If CR puts up a post about Nikon, it would be very strange indeed if people didn't respond!

And it's hardly surprising that there has been a large response, and that in general people are praising Nikon for introducing highly desirable products for realistic prices, whereas Canon are tarting up old glass by adding a converter, and trying to rip customers off with unjustified high prices.

It's absolutely great news for Nikon users. It'll tempt quite a lot of Canon users who don't want to lug around gigantic lenses or pay crazy prices. And hopefully it will give Canon a very hard and fully deserved kick up the rear, and force them to introduce similar products at fair prices. Long-standing Canon customers deserve better than to be milked like this.

Remember the Arab saying that my enemy's enemy (= Sony) is my friend. Actually, Nikon makes brilliant gear, as does Sony who have kicked Canon's and Nikon's butts. I know what I want, and it's not an 800/6.3 even though I think it is a stunning lens.

 

[dolina]

If you make unsubstantiated claims, expect to be "grilled".

I think its more like I am disrupting your deeply held belief so I better show proof of the contrary to change your mind.

At 5am I've done best effort to find that old consumer survey. If CIPA removed it from their website then poor me. ;-) But to be honest, do I really want to win the Special Olympics by wasting my time to prove that I am correct?

In terms of R&D spending addressing specific concerns on bird & wildlife photography is not all that important until recently. I say this as Canon/Sony have promoted AF specific for birds & animals in the last half decade. This is an indication that the market for work photography has already saturated and they're trying to expand the market size of bird and wildlife photography by means of having new features specific for that applications.

That's one way to induce DSLR users to buy the mirrorless equivalent of their old gear.

This is a niche relative to the larger market of photo news agencies, PJ & sports. They're far from equal in size as there arent enough rich old men around who actually life animals much less this niche.

 

[entoman]

Remember the Arab saying that my enemy's enemy (= Sony) is my friend. Actually, Nikon makes brilliant gear, as does Sony who have kicked Canon's and Nikon's butts. I know what I want, and it's not an 800/6.3 even though I think it is a stunning lens.

There's a lot of truth in that - competition is what causes advancement.