OMG! Dpreview reviewed the 5DS/5DSR - Do you have to sell it?

[sanj]

the sony menu system is pretty similar to whats on the 7dii. it has tabs with familiar icons on top. they use a toolbox icon instead of a wrench. both are better than whats on the 6d.

Thank you for posting a real example on this discussion. Yes I agree, there is nothing wrong with Sony menu, just it is different than Canon.

 

[tr573]

I don't think either of you grasp the concept of 'intuitive' (Evidently it's not an autology!). I'm sure Mr. Martin has learned and is quite familiar with pressing Ctrl-K-S-Y to save a document, but that's not exactly intuitive.

escape-colon-w is obviously the most intuitive way to save a file.

 

[AlanF]

This discussion is quite interesting. There is a difference between the standard usage of intuitive and that referring to human-computer interfaces, which has been subject to much analysis by computer engineers - the former being insight without familiarity and the latter much more based on familiarity. There are those who enjoy being members of groups steeped in arcane mystery and revel in the difficult twists and turns, and the rest who like a simple life. I personally prefer computer programs I can use without having to read the manual until all else fails and steps that are readily reversible without going back to restart. Some software engineers use the same intuitive reasoning I have. Unfortunately, there are aspects of Adobe software - Illustrator, InDesign and PS that are more alien to me than in other programs.

 

[tr573]

Entirely possible Neuro I do not have a real grasp of intuitive in this regard, I am first to admit. I think this requires further exploration and specific examples between the two menu systems to conclude Canon is superior to others.

So, one real world example that dpreview points out in their A7R2 review (in which they do call sony out for a lot of flaws, despite what some people are screaming over there) is that there are (their words) 22 AF configuration options, which are spread across 4 different menu tabs. Canon places all AF things , in the AF menu tab.

This is the kind of thing (IMO) that happens when you let software engineers design your UI, rather than dedicated UX people. My company has a bunch of product teams where this happens, and you end up wtih the same sort of thinking "Well, this subroutine is here in the code, so it belongs here in the UI" - but that doesn't make sense to someone who doesn't know how the backend is laid out.

 

[Neutral]

the sony menu system is pretty similar to whats on the 7dii. it has tabs with familiar icons on top. they use a toolbox icon instead of a wrench. both are better than whats on the 6d.

Thank you for posting a real example on this discussion. Yes I agree, there is nothing wrong with Sony menu, just it is different than Canon.

Exactly.
The similar set of camera functions organized in the similar way.
Does not require more than 5-10 minutes to look through A to Z and then some more time to play with new additional functions.
The only difference is that Sony concept (additional mid-layer fully customizable functions menu subset via FN button) provides much better setup flexibility than Canon menu system. And this is what is not grasped at all by people complaining about clumpsy sony menu system.
They just do not see what is sitting right in front of them as they used to old not customizable menu system where all is already defined by manufacturer for them).
I see Sony concept of menu sytem as very smart design decision from sony engineers. This functional menu subset allows total user customization allowing camera to be 100% intuitive and friendly to the user and not rely on what manufacture decided to put in the main menu system.
User just set it up to what is best for him and then do not spend time going to the main menu system when using camera.
As some people suggested comparison between Window and MS DOS for intuitive concept then this functional menu subset is "Windows over MS DOS" allowing to get access to required functions in just couple of clicks. And it is more advanced than "Windows" concept as user defines himself required functionality and the best way to access that.
Or user might be quite happy with the default functional subset and do not do any customozation.
Users just only need to know about this concept (functional menu subset via dedicated FN button) and understand that they do not need to go to the main system menu for the most frequently used functions.
I think for some people thinking inertia is the factor which is causing some problems.
Different system most probaly means different design concept so it is required to think a bit different to grasp differencies and possible advantages that might not be very obvious at first glance.

 

[Loswr]

When someone doesn't agree with you, it's always easiest to claim they are disagreeing because they lack understanding.

 

[NancyP]

.....when the truth is that they disagree just to keep the discussion going....

 

[sanj]

When someone doesn't agree with you, it's always easiest to claim they are disagreeing because they lack understanding.

I have noticed that too. Some post actual examples to show the facts.

 

[sdsr]

This discussion is quite interesting. There is a difference between the standard usage of intuitive and that referring to human-computer interfaces, which has been subject to much analysis by computer engineers - the former being insight without familiarity and the latter much more based on familiarity. There are those who enjoy being members of groups steeped in arcane mystery and revel in the difficult twists and turns, and the rest who like a simple life. I personally prefer computer programs I can use without having to read the manual until all else fails and steps that are readily reversible without going back to restart.

Yes, it is rather interesting - and it says quite a lot about the quality of current cameras that so much discussion can be devoted to this particular topic (I'm rather surprised to find myself adding to it...) - and I tend to agree with you. (I'm surprised, though, that you had such a hard time finding the card formatting page - you can look at them all in less than a minute.)

But at least Sony uses familiar words in its menus, unlike Olympus, who occasionally resort to what seems like a private language. E.g.. on the OMD EM5 you can ask the camera to apply IBIS to the image while looking through the EVF (you would think that was the default mode, but no). But you would probably never know this was an option from looking at the menu, and I doubt I would have ever found out about it at all had I not read a discussion on some forum and then asked for precise directions on how to do it. Sony's menus look as good as Canon's after dealing with that mess. But again, as with Sony, once you've configured the various buttons on the exterior of the camera the way you want them, the number of times you'll need to look at a menu is vanishingly small.

On my Sonys the only times I look at the menu are to add a folder to the memory card or reformat it (frequent, so I know where to do it), manually select APS-C for third party lenses (rarely, so I have to rummage around a bit), and make the camera completely silent and dark (to remain unobtrusive in a theatre; I did that once).

All that said, I agree that Canon wins in terms of menu design (and that's not a matter of familiarity - I came to Canon after Nikon and Pentax). For whatever that's worth.

 

[AlanF]

It's pretty much consensus among the top review sites that, whatever the definition of "intuitive" you use or however much you excoriate those who are too lazy or incompetent to work on the Sony menu system, Sony is not in the top league menu-wise.
Cameralabs is a good site:
http://www.cameralabs.com/reviews/Sony_Alpha_A7r_II/

"Sony's menus could also do with some work. Items aren't always grouped consistently and depending on some settings or modes, others can be mysteriously greyed-out. For example if you have RAW or RAW+JPEG selected, you may wonder why the HDR or Picture Effects are unavailable, and you're not in the panorama mode, you can't change the panorama settings even if you wanted to in advance. Things get even more confusing if you're using the downloadable apps, as most employ their own menus, including things like image quality settings. So you may think you've already set the image quality, but if you enter an app, you'll need to do it again. In the heat of the moment it's easy to forget and think you're recording RAW, but then discover the app menu was set to JPEG only.

Of course it may all make complete sense to you as much of this boils down to personal preference, but for me I feel the A7r Mark II's user interface isn't as intuitive or structured as it could be, and that overall usability could be significantly improved with more tactile buttons and dials. Sort this out - and fit a fully-articulated touch-screen - and there's really very little to complain about."

 

[martti]

it took me a year to figure out the A6000 menus and stuff.
I do not like that camera, though wit DXO it is just fine,
If I need the pictures I go with 5dIII
Works for me.

 

[Valvebounce]

Hi Dilbert.
After a long time of wondering what for, I filled mine, I have not looked back. It makes accessing items that are in sub menus much faster, a very useful feature.

Merry Christmas, Graham.

Just our of curiosity, how many people fill out the "My Menu" feature on Canon DSLRs?

I use it for about 99% of my menu work on my camera as it saves me a lot of time.

 

[kaihp]

Just our of curiosity, how many people fill out the "My Menu" feature on Canon DSLRs?

I use it for about 99% of my menu work on my camera as it saves me a lot of time.

Hi Dilbert.
After a long time of wondering what for, I filled mine, I have not looked back. It makes accessing items that are in sub menus much faster, a very useful feature.

Merry Christmas, Graham.

+1. I used just a few "My Menu" items on my 50D, but once I moved to the 5D3, there are so many menus that I moved all my most-used menus into this (and I regret that I can't put more than one screen's worth of menus into "My Menu").

Merry Christmas to everyone

 

[AvTvM]

Just our of curiosity, how many people fill out the "My Menu" feature on Canon DSLRs?

I use it for about 99% of my menu work on my camera as it saves me a lot of time.

+1

Once i've defined C1/2/3 on the main dial and filled MyPreferences menu everything I need is immediately accessible. Canon UI definitely rulez.

That aside i full concur with the 5Ds/R review on dpreview. If i were in the market and willing to spend 3.5k it would definitely be on a Sony A7R II.

 

[Loswr]

That aside i full concur with the 5Ds/R review on dpreview. If i were in the market and willing to spend 3.5k it would definitely be on a Sony A7R II.

I thought your primary differentiating criterion was the mirror – did you need the DPR review to tell you the 5DsR has one and the a7RII does not?

 

[AvTvM]

That aside i full concur with the 5Ds/R review on dpreview. If i were in the market and willing to spend 3.5k it would definitely be on a Sony A7R II.

I thought your primary differentiating criterion was the mirror – did you need the DPR review to tell you the 5DsR has one and the a7RII does not?

No. The review just confirmed my view that Canon mirrorslappers are inferior still imaging systems compared to 21st century mirrorless cameras.

 

[Loswr]

That aside i full concur with the 5Ds/R review on dpreview. If i were in the market and willing to spend 3.5k it would definitely be on a Sony A7R II.

I thought your primary differentiating criterion was the mirror – did you need the DPR review to tell you the 5DsR has one and the a7RII does not?

No. The review just confirmed my view that Canon mirrorslappers are inferior still imaging systems compared to 21st century mirrorless cameras.

Oh, I see. YAPODFC. :

 

[bdunbar79]

That aside i full concur with the 5Ds/R review on dpreview. If i were in the market and willing to spend 3.5k it would definitely be on a Sony A7R II.

I thought your primary differentiating criterion was the mirror – did you need the DPR review to tell you the 5DsR has one and the a7RII does not?

No. The review just confirmed my view that Canon mirrorslappers are inferior still imaging systems compared to 21st century mirrorless cameras.

Oh, I see. YAPODFC. :

Dude, market leading is soooo last century.

 

[AlanF]

That aside i full concur with the 5Ds/R review on dpreview. If i were in the market and willing to spend 3.5k it would definitely be on a Sony A7R II.

I thought your primary differentiating criterion was the mirror – did you need the DPR review to tell you the 5DsR has one and the a7RII does not?

No. The review just confirmed my view that Canon mirrorslappers are inferior still imaging systems compared to 21st century mirrorless cameras.

Oh, I see. YAPODFC. :

Please translate YAPODFC

 

[Loswr]

Please translate YAPODFC

Yet another prediction of doom for Canon.