Opinion: Let's redo the APS-C lineup in 2025. Please.
- Thread starter Richard CR
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Yes, but the price segmentation means that the RP is in a league of its own in the FF market.
The R8 is certainly superior and probably seen by Canon as the entry level FF but the RP still limps on as the cheapest FF body.
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There is no doubt that the reduced R5/R3 pricing makes Canon's segmentation much more interesting to a bunch of people. 5Div users staying with Canon have a choice of R5+lens or R5ii for instance. I hope that the R5 and R3 stay in the lineup for a substantial period of time.
I believe that the change from DLSR to MILC is an inflexion point for many. Adapting legacy lens will make a difference of course but it is possible to do an analysis of new vs old based on future shooting requirements including selling gear second hand.
The native/3rd party FE mount lens options are an important consideration in this scenario.
The R5 currently USD800 undercutting the Z8 is another.
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R10's price point with LP-E17 & 80D's 24MP CMOS is a big nono imho. R50 is justified because everything else is right at that price point. For R10 msrp range, I can opt for RP, grey import R7/R8, used R. I struggle to see R10 being a sensible option....Unit sales justify a camera's model's existence. It's only one "tea leaf", but it does well on the Japan-only BCN list.
The product differentiation that DPR mentions:
"Over the R50, the R10 adds a second command dial, joystick, additional on-body buttons, an AF/MF switch, a faster burst rate and buffer, a faster mechanical shutter and support for faster memory cards, all in a larger body."
Different strokes for different folks.
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Ah, I misunderstood your comment, so sorry.
Btw, my old 7D is still used by an artist friend who liked the imperfections of it's sensor - until I explained her that the strongly visible CA she wants as an essential part of her images is produced by the lens she uses, not the camera. It is an old Tamron "rubber lens" zoom, more a sort of Lomo experience - nothing against Lomography, for arts working with imperfections they offer quite interesting tools.
I was really thinking about getting a 1D-X for a while when its prices went down. But I prefer the smaller camera bodies since my backpack is already crammed full of lenses, 2 cameras etc. when we go out for wildlife. For birding I always liked to have a crop camera with a decent resolution, so I need(ed) to carry often two cameras, the FF one for landscape and low light. I liked the image quality of my 7DII, 20 MP was a sweet spot back then for a crop sensor, but I always was disappointed by its AF performance compared with my 5D3. The 5D3 was the first digital camera I really fell in love with, great colors out of the camera (compared with my wife's Nikons), very catchy AF for shooting BIF with my EF 500mm. And because I frequently shot slide film in the old days I was used to meter more carefully, so I could cope with the fact that the 5D3 didn't offer much room for e.g. lifting shadows. Enough of old stories, but the 5D3 is currently in my mind because I "re-post process" images from an Island trip when I still used that camera.
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The R10 is much better camera than the 80D tho. And on the grey market the price is closer to R50.
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Same here, I fully agree with the R7's strange ergonomics. I never will understand why Canon has shifted the thumb wheel upwards and put the control stick in its center (so you nearly have to hit both in fast action) and then placed this additional four directions wobbly "wheel" from cheaper cameras (and Nikon) where the thumb wheel traditionally was. Its functions just double the control stick and thumb wheel functions.
But AF wise the R7 at least with my EF 500mm overall much better than my 7DII, in particular when I shoot birds (often soft contours, not much micro contrast). Both cameras do not like to shoot flying birds against skies, the R7 fails in certain overcast skies (Canon even mentions that in the handbook). The remedy is to switch off its AI trained object recognition, in particular eye recognition, same with macro photography. Obviously, flowers, spiders, beetles etc. weren't much used for training the AI object recognition. In many other settings, object and eye recognition work stunningly good in settings when the 7DII definitely would have failed, e.g. with vivid backgrounds or when the bird sits partly hidden in a bush. In the beginning it was a weird experience for me personally to let the camera "think" for me, but then the results really helped me to overcome my proudness as an experienced photographer who still sometimes uses manually focussing film cameras in the street.
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As an R7 user I wouldn't call that camera exactly professional - it could (and is) used by pros of course as a second small body, but it has too many limitations for a real pro camera. That said, it is a very good camera for enthusiasts, no question.
Since my Spanish knowledge is extremely limited (I can read it partly), here is the DeepL-Translation of my comment for you:
Como usuario de la R7, yo no llamaría a esa cámara exactamente profesional: los profesionales podrían utilizarla (y lo hacen) como un segundo cuerpo cámara, pero tiene demasiadas limitaciones para ser una cámara profesional de verdad. Dicho esto, es una cámara muy buena para los entusiastas, sin duda.
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La traducción siempre marca errores de comprensión gramatical.
Lo que me refiero que es a lo que va el Título del Tema general, es a la nueva R7 Mark II, que sea una cámara profesional que se cataloga como tal, y diferenciarla de las otras APS C, así todos contentos.
Hay muchos modelos de APS C en Canon para contentar a todos los públicos.
La función que te da una APS C de 32 MGPIXELS, de factor de x1.6, no la consigues ni con la R5 ni con la R3 ni con la R1.
Mi equipo es un R7 con RF 100 500 y un extensor RF 1.4, junto al RF 16mm y RF 24mm, aficionado a la fotografía de aves desde hace años, y después de probar con la R5 me quedo con la R7 para ese tipo de fotografía . Con todos sus defectos la R7 es una gran cámara, ojala pronto salga la R7 Marck II y con los errores y faltas ya mencionados mejorados, actualizados.
Animo Canon Te estamos esperando!!
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Yes, I also think Canon had to bring out cameras but just took what they had and put it into a new body. I am a user of a EOS 90D and an EOS 77D. I do contract work and use both cameras with one 17-55mm f2.8 IS USM and one 70-200mm F2.8 L IS USM II. I am on the edge to upgrade my Cameras to the R7, but as I have my concerns about its performance, I tend to wait for the R7 II. With the 90D i work with a battery grip all the time, and i never put it off. I love it and simply can not understand the decission why canon would not bring a battery grip for the R7. Then the camera is not worth a 7-Series Camera.
So i hope to get these things from the R7 II:
A new Sensor between 32 and 35 MP with a drastically better noise performance and a way faster readout.
Still Framerates can stay at 30fps RAW, that is totally fine to me
A better and more consistent AF ( i do not expect the acellerator from the R5 II)
1080p@240p, 4K@60p without crop AND at least C-LOG 3 or even C-RAW.
4K@120p with a slight crop (just like the a6700)
A fr**king battery grip!
A top LCD
a better Viewfinder
When I step into the mirrorless world, I would adapt my 70-200mm f2.8, but not the 17-55mm f2.8 as it simply can not give me the quality I would like to have. I don't know why, but my copy does not perform that well on my 90D. So I need a new Stamdardzoom lense and i hope to get a 17-70mm f2.8 from Tamron in a slightly better G2 Version, then I am as happy as I can get (I think so). And don't forget my battery grips!
So i hope to get these things from the R7 II:
A new Sensor between 32 and 35 MP with a drastically better noise performance and a way faster readout.
Still Framerates can stay at 30fps RAW, that is totally fine to me
A better and more consistent AF ( i do not expect the acellerator from the R5 II)
1080p@240p, 4K@60p without crop AND at least C-LOG 3 or even C-RAW.
4K@120p with a slight crop (just like the a6700)
A fr**king battery grip!
A top LCD
a better Viewfinder
When I step into the mirrorless world, I would adapt my 70-200mm f2.8, but not the 17-55mm f2.8 as it simply can not give me the quality I would like to have. I don't know why, but my copy does not perform that well on my 90D. So I need a new Stamdardzoom lense and i hope to get a 17-70mm f2.8 from Tamron in a slightly better G2 Version, then I am as happy as I can get (I think so). And don't forget my battery grips!
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Great article, very passionate and thoughtout. Thanks for sharing it. I would very much welcome if Canon decided to somewhat revive the M series, which is basically what you are suggesting.
In the last months I am contemplating about retiring my trusty Canon fullframe DSLR equipment and buy something that is more portable and easy to use without breaking the bank. This is where I find the M series lenses and something like the M6 II used to be very consistent: portability, easy of use and affordability. With this in mind the RF-S cameras don’t speak to me at all, unfortunately.
Turn the R50 into a rangefinder-style M6 III as suggested, leave the tilt screen but give it a pop-up EVF and port the M series lenses (maybe update the zooms). Make a Z30 competitor with flippy screen and no EVF along with it. That’s an RF-S system I would find appealing.
In the last months I am contemplating about retiring my trusty Canon fullframe DSLR equipment and buy something that is more portable and easy to use without breaking the bank. This is where I find the M series lenses and something like the M6 II used to be very consistent: portability, easy of use and affordability. With this in mind the RF-S cameras don’t speak to me at all, unfortunately.
Turn the R50 into a rangefinder-style M6 III as suggested, leave the tilt screen but give it a pop-up EVF and port the M series lenses (maybe update the zooms). Make a Z30 competitor with flippy screen and no EVF along with it. That’s an RF-S system I would find appealing.
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Everybody wants everything. The biggest demand for a crop sensor camera is surely for wildlife and maybe sports? Where else is it that useful. I've yet to see a brilliant picture of an owl in flight taken at 30m away with an iPhone xx. !! So with that in mind Canon just need an R7 that actually works how it is supposed to. It needs to be a 7D mk11 or Nikon D500 mirrorless as they were/are the prosumer APSC top dogs for wildlife. No need to change the body - get used to it and its fine. So a bit more weather sealing, a stacked sensor 24-32mp and the AF of the R6 mk11, R8 standard and all will be fine. Don't even need a battery grip if the battery is of a decent size.
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I love the R50. However, I'd like the EVF removed and IBIS added for the Mark II. It's too small for my hands to use the EVF without poking myself in the eye.
I actually hope IBIS becomes part of the core specifications for all the cameras (R200 aside) and isn't part of segmentation. I'm not sure if we're there yet for the next gen lineup. Economies of scale though.....
It's my webcam, gimbal cam, camera for the kids.. the 16mm never comes off.
I did take it out for a day with the 28-70, ergonomic masterpiece </s>.
Not asking for much or anything remotely close to realistic.
I actually hope IBIS becomes part of the core specifications for all the cameras (R200 aside) and isn't part of segmentation. I'm not sure if we're there yet for the next gen lineup. Economies of scale though.....
It's my webcam, gimbal cam, camera for the kids.. the 16mm never comes off.
I did take it out for a day with the 28-70, ergonomic masterpiece </s>.
Not asking for much or anything remotely close to realistic.
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As an R7 shooter, my wish would be to simply add a faster readout sensor to the new body, increase buffer a bit and leave it in the same body. If they go to an R5 size body I would not object but I am not yearning away for a larger body.
Upgrade AF to current generation "best in class" from the R1 or R5ii. If that requires bigger body for the accelerator chip, then, go to the R5 size body.
As for RF-s lenses, I use FF glass on my ASP-c bodies (D500 and R7). I shoot mostly nature and wildlife. If I do decide to get a FF body, I won't have to buy new glass for it (or put RF-s glass on a FF body rendering it ASP-c anyway).
I'm primarily a stills shooter who does some video. The video options in the R7 are fine for me. 4K 24, 30 and 60 with 120 at 1080 is OK for my needs.
CFe cards would be a nice to have but SD UHSii work. It's not a show stopper for me.
Bottom-line, Canon, updated "current generation" sensor technology, current generation best in class AF from your higher end cameras and call it a day. I'll be first in line for the R7ii and I imagine I'll have competition for the first in line position.
Upgrade AF to current generation "best in class" from the R1 or R5ii. If that requires bigger body for the accelerator chip, then, go to the R5 size body.
As for RF-s lenses, I use FF glass on my ASP-c bodies (D500 and R7). I shoot mostly nature and wildlife. If I do decide to get a FF body, I won't have to buy new glass for it (or put RF-s glass on a FF body rendering it ASP-c anyway).
I'm primarily a stills shooter who does some video. The video options in the R7 are fine for me. 4K 24, 30 and 60 with 120 at 1080 is OK for my needs.
CFe cards would be a nice to have but SD UHSii work. It's not a show stopper for me.
Bottom-line, Canon, updated "current generation" sensor technology, current generation best in class AF from your higher end cameras and call it a day. I'll be first in line for the R7ii and I imagine I'll have competition for the first in line position.
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It's nice to see a crop sensor user proposing reasonable compromises.
It's really tiring seeing people who insist that Canon not only can but must produce a crop sensor body (and I say "crop sensor" rather than any specific crop because I have yet to see the "fans" of any vendor that isn't doing this) that is tiny, has all the features including build quality of the R1 and sells for no more than the sale price of the current entry level body and that Canon could easily do that "because the small sensor is so much cheaper".
Oh, and then insist that Canon produce a full line of crop sensor lenses that are equally tiny and light before they produce any more full-frame lenses. Then, if you suggest they use a full-frame body in crop mode or that they can use full-frame lenses their response is that the full-frame lenses and bodies are too expensive and too big.
So, again, thank you for showing there is such a thing as a crop sensor customer who is reasonable.
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You might want to experiment with your settings. Birds against the sky is, by far, the best and easiest situation for my R7 to get AF with subject detection. I would have to say very close to 100% keepers. Are you shooting H rather than H+? and no more than 15 FPS? I find I rarely need to shoot more than 8 FPS, Elec 1st curtain and H drive mode. The camera's AF does have trouble keeping up with 30 FPS by Canon's own admission.
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Canon like to keep their hand in the crop sensor field without trying too hard. I got the Sigma lens for my R7 and it's a revelation, so light and portable, far better than my 7Dii with 17-55. Canon could easily do this if they wanted. As of now they don't want. They will eventually produce better APS-C cameras and lenses because it's the future. There is a practical limit to how many MP you need. 8k is the current requirement for video, it may go to 16k but after that? That will have a good enough resolution to have a TV the size of the wall in your lounge. There won't be a lot of call for more than that. Fuji already do a 40MP APS-C sensor. At the moment it might not be as sharp as an FF sensor, and the low light performance not as good. But it will be, maybe in 3-5 years' time. Then FF will die, unless you like having a workout carrying all that glass around (and even if you do you can carry more options with APS-C). The camera won't get smaller but the lenses will. They won't get much cheaper, because they will have more features, power zoom etc. With the penchant for oblong sizes (16:9) it will be APS-C, not MFT.
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