Owning a 600mm f/4 II, 200-400mm, 300mm f/2.8 II, Tamron 150-600mm

How many have bought a 600 II, 200-400, 300 II or Tamron 150-600?

  • I have bought or have ordered a 600mm f/4 II

    Votes: 18 25.4%
  • I have bought or have ordered a 200-400mm f/4 II

    Votes: 12 16.9%
  • I have bought or have ordered a 300mm f/2.8 II

    Votes: 24 33.8%
  • I have bought or have ordered a Tamron 150-600mm

    Votes: 30 42.3%

  • Total voters
    71
  • Poll closed .
eml58 said:
Kerry B said:
The other thing you have to remember is the big whites do not depreciate, and can be an investment, third party lenses are generally cheap to buy on the second hand market. Another reason to look at the big white's.

This is a good point & it has been my own experience, I owned both the version 1 300f/2.8 & 400f/2.8 Lenses, sold them for exactly what I had paid for them when I purchased the Version 2 Lenses, I could have sold them at a profit but I sold to friends so I was interested only in recouping what I'de spent.

Actually I disagree that. You have better think about that from finance point of view. Money actually loses its current value in the future because of inflation. For example, you buy 300mm L f/2.8 for $7000. You may sell it for 6500 ten years later. However, you will lose 5% inflation of 7000 yearly. That means the future of your $7000 is about 11500. You actually will lose not 500, but 5000. The more you invest in you lenses the more you will lose in the future.
Don't buy the big white because you think it will keep its value. You will lose more money on the investment. You buy the big white because you think it worth for the money. If I was a PRO, I would buy the best gear I can afford and bring return. Otherwise, I would not.
 
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cliffwang, of course you are correct, but did you have to post that! Now the secret of how governments rip us off on capital gains etc., is out of the bag! ;)

After getting this shot I decided that, yes it is possible to have too shallow a DOF (a slow learner but this did the trick) :)

Jack
 

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mackguyver said:
Steve, nice photo, and after reading one of Alan's posts, I tested my 300 with both extenders using FoCal and found that wide open was sharpest bare and with the 1.4x, and f/5.6 and f/8 were even with the 2x. There was a very slight boost at f/6.3, but after reading the-digital-picture and others, I had assumed that f/8 was sharper than f/5.6. Your lens might not match those results, but so far Alan and I have found that to be the case.

That is interesting. I've only ever eyeballed the results and it seems like I get better results stopped down slightly. Of course, my 300 is the non-IS and there may have been some improvements made to IQ since 1987.

cliffwang said:
Actually I disagree that. You have better think about that from finance point of view. Money actually loses its current value in the future because of inflation. For example, you buy 300mm L f/2.8 for $7000. You may sell it for 6500 ten years later. However, you will lose 5% inflation of 7000 yearly. That means the future of your $7000 is about 11500. You actually will lose not 500, but 5000. The more you invest in you lenses the more you will lose in the future.

Inflation has been under 2% for the last three years and has averaged 2.31% for the last 10. Inflation is a real thing but not as big a factor as you're making it out to be.

e: quick calculation shows a $7000 lens purchased in 2004 equivalent to $8668 in 2014 dollars. Also, its worth remembering that the 300 f2.8 did not cost $7000 in 2004.
 
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neuroanatomist said:
kaihp said:
My only problem with that group buy is that I'm not in the US to take advantage of it >:(

That…and the fact that the deal has expired. ;)

Well, I did see the group buy while it was active, so I won't complain that the deal has now expired :D
In HK you can get them for around $5800, which is not so bad.
 
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kaihp said:
neuroanatomist said:
kaihp said:
My only problem with that group buy is that I'm not in the US to take advantage of it >:(

That…and the fact that the deal has expired. ;)

Well, I did see the group buy while it was active, so I won't complain that the deal has now expired :D
In HK you can get them for around $5800, which is not so bad.

kaihp - where in Hong Kong have you seen them at that price? (HK$ 45,000) I know Fortress sells them for HK$52,500 but they tend to be a bit more expensive.
 
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someone in this threat complained that the lens is a dust sucker. I was shooting at beaches and wetlands for two weeks. Lot's of sand hit the camera/lens. Back from the trip and cleaned the exterior thoroughly. Nothing got inside that I can see. I did keep a 95mm B&W MRC filter the lens to protect front from sand and spray. I note that the tamron has a rubber gasket at the base of the mount.

As mentioned before, no problems at all. except maybe a few missed BIFs as per usual poor user technique.
 
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cliffwang said:
eml58 said:
Kerry B said:
The other thing you have to remember is the big whites do not depreciate, and can be an investment, third party lenses are generally cheap to buy on the second hand market. Another reason to look at the big white's.

This is a good point & it has been my own experience, I owned both the version 1 300f/2.8 & 400f/2.8 Lenses, sold them for exactly what I had paid for them when I purchased the Version 2 Lenses, I could have sold them at a profit but I sold to friends so I was interested only in recouping what I'de spent.

Actually I disagree that. You have better think about that from finance point of view. Money actually loses its current value in the future because of inflation. For example, you buy 300mm L f/2.8 for $7000. You may sell it for 6500 ten years later. However, you will lose 5% inflation of 7000 yearly. That means the future of your $7000 is about 11500. You actually will lose not 500, but 5000. The more you invest in you lenses the more you will lose in the future.
Don't buy the big white because you think it will keep its value. You will lose more money on the investment. You buy the big white because you think it worth for the money. If I was a PRO, I would buy the best gear I can afford and bring return. Otherwise, I would not.

Things have been more stable recently, but it's not hard to find stories of people selling their Mk1 supertelephoto lenses for much more than they paid.
 
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expatinasia said:
kaihp said:
In HK you can get them for around $5800, which is not so bad.

kaihp - where in Hong Kong have you seen them at that price? (HK$ 45,000) I know Fortress sells them for HK$52,500 but they tend to be a bit more expensive.

I'm using the price.com.hk Android app/website to search. My Chinese is (very) limited, but there seem to be several sellers offering it for HKD44,800. But they could be "grey imports" - but hey, I'm not in HK so I don't care too much.

When I was in HK in October, I found the 600EX-RT's at lower price than advertised in the app. The "Sim City" shopping mall in Mong Kok, Shan Tung Street had several well equipped shops. DCfever is even registered as an official dealer by Canon HK.

Shoot me a PM if you need more info.
 
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kaihp said:
I'm using the price.com.hk Android app/website to search. My Chinese is (very) limited, but there seem to be several sellers offering it for HKD44,800. But they could be "grey imports" - but hey, I'm not in HK so I don't care too much.

When I was in HK in October, I found the 600EX-RT's at lower price than advertised in the app. The "Sim City" shopping mall in Mong Kok, Shan Tung Street had several well equipped shops. DCfever is even registered as an official dealer by Canon HK.

Shoot me a PM if you need more info.

Thanks, appreciate it. Cheers.
 
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Steve said:
mackguyver said:
Steve, nice photo, and after reading one of Alan's posts, I tested my 300 with both extenders using FoCal and found that wide open was sharpest bare and with the 1.4x, and f/5.6 and f/8 were even with the 2x. There was a very slight boost at f/6.3, but after reading the-digital-picture and others, I had assumed that f/8 was sharper than f/5.6. Your lens might not match those results, but so far Alan and I have found that to be the case.

That is interesting. I've only ever eyeballed the results and it seems like I get better results stopped down slightly. Of course, my 300 is the non-IS and there may have been some improvements made to IQ since 1987.

cliffwang said:
Actually I disagree that. You have better think about that from finance point of view. Money actually loses its current value in the future because of inflation. For example, you buy 300mm L f/2.8 for $7000. You may sell it for 6500 ten years later. However, you will lose 5% inflation of 7000 yearly. That means the future of your $7000 is about 11500. You actually will lose not 500, but 5000. The more you invest in you lenses the more you will lose in the future.

Inflation has been under 2% for the last three years and has averaged 2.31% for the last 10. Inflation is a real thing but not as big a factor as you're making it out to be.

e: quick calculation shows a $7000 lens purchased in 2004 equivalent to $8668 in 2014 dollars. Also, its worth remembering that the 300 f2.8 did not cost $7000 in 2004.

Since you know the number, I assume that you know official government inflation excludes certain categories like food. I believe that you can feel the inflation is much more than 2% from grocery stores, restaurants, and many many places. That's why stock goes to history high and richer became much richer.

Edit:
In March 2004, the Dow Jones industrial average was about 10300, and today is 16340. If you put 7000 in the stock market your stock will be worth 11000 without dividends in average in the past 10 years.
 
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cliffwang said:
Since you know the number, I assume that you know official government inflation excludes certain categories like food. I believe that you can feel the inflation is much more than 2% from grocery stores, restaurants, and many many places. That's why stock goes to history high and richer became much more richer.

Edit:
In March 2004, the Dow Jones industrial average was about 10300, and today is 16340. If you put 7000 in the stock market your stock will be worth 11000 without dividends in average in the past 10 years.

The CPI does include food. Its the first item listed.
http://stats.bls.gov/cpi/cpifaq.htm#Question_7

Inflation and the Dow Jones are two different animals and aren't comparable. No argument from me about the rich getting (much, much) richer, that's a plain fact, but it has nothing to do with inflation. Back to lenses though, as someone pointed out earlier some of the super tele's got a big boost in resale value after the vII's were released with huge new price tags. Pro level camera gear is pretty unique in how well it holds its value. And really, even if you lose a little to inflation, it isn't much in the grand scheme of things when you consider how much this hobby/profession costs.
 
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Steve said:
cliffwang said:
Since you know the number, I assume that you know official government inflation excludes certain categories like food. I believe that you can feel the inflation is much more than 2% from grocery stores, restaurants, and many many places. That's why stock goes to history high and richer became much more richer.

Edit:
In March 2004, the Dow Jones industrial average was about 10300, and today is 16340. If you put 7000 in the stock market your stock will be worth 11000 without dividends in average in the past 10 years.

The CPI does include food. Its the first item listed.
http://stats.bls.gov/cpi/cpifaq.htm#Question_7

Inflation and the Dow Jones are two different animals and aren't comparable. No argument from me about the rich getting (much, much) richer, that's a plain fact, but it has nothing to do with inflation. Back to lenses though, as someone pointed out earlier some of the super tele's got a big boost in resale value after the vII's were released with huge new price tags. Pro level camera gear is pretty unique in how well it holds its value. And really, even if you lose a little to inflation, it isn't much in the grand scheme of things when you consider how much this hobby/profession costs.

CPI is not Core inflation. Core inflation excludes food and energy.
FYI
http://www.investopedia.com/terms/c/coreinflation.asp

Some of supertel lens was sold higher price than original price. However, that's wrong comparison between present value and future value. Moreover, that's a logical fallacies, hasty generalization, to explain big white lenses holding their value.
 
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I like the comments from the owners of the f2.8/f4 variants, there is now evidence that the extra money spent for the wider aperture is actually well spent as the wider f stop is being used, so with that in mind (and as no one appears to have brought this one up yet) what’s everyone opinions on the Sigma 300mm f2.8 (like the used version for sale at $2,500 on B&H just now http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/801030046-USE/sigma_195101_telephoto_300mm_f_2_8_ex.html ) + a Sigma 1.4X or 2x TC? It just appears to me that this option has not been included in this thread…………………or is it a lemon and I’ve completely missed that fact!!!!!!! :P
 
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lescrane said:
someone in this threat complained that the lens is a dust sucker. I was shooting at beaches and wetlands for two weeks. Lot's of sand hit the camera/lens. Back from the trip and cleaned the exterior thoroughly. Nothing got inside that I can see. I did keep a 95mm B&W MRC filter the lens to protect front from sand and spray. I note that the tamron has a rubber gasket at the base of the mount.

As mentioned before, no problems at all. except maybe a few missed BIFs as per usual poor user technique.

Great! I'm glad that sand doesn't enter into the barrel, otherwise Tamron would have to make a serious recall. However, dust is naturally much smaller and flatter than sand granules, and regardless of having the same 95mm protective filter on the lens, extending the barrel to 600mm allows for water droplets and dust particles to attach to the exposed barrel section of the lens. So when taking a fast action handheld photo of an Osprey, soaring 90 degrees from the horizontal, and zooming quickly in and out to make sure the bird is mapped onto the full frame sensor, those little particulates bypass this lens’s gasket placed between the top section and the cork-screw internal receiving mechanism. Everyone's lens will display different build characteristics to a very controlled degree, but continual inconsistencies are a sign of poor engineering. For a few extra hundred dollars to the consumer, Tamron could have made the extra effort in ensuring better design for longer use life. As a direct comparative example, my prime series Tamron f/2.8 24-70mm (stronger and thicker seal in the barrel) and 70-200mm (internal focus) lenses have the gold ring marking with excellent sealing and solid build design that feel like professional lenses and were designed to compete directly with the Canon 24-70 / 70-200 lenses. For its well-designed optics, Tamron should have not compromised the 150-600mm. A colleague of mine also purchased the Tamron 150-600mm, and after a few weeks of use, he also acquired a very similar count of internal dust. Deciding to service it himself and remove the front element and apparent dust on the first internal element down the barrel, he removed the 4 screws of the outer plastic mount and an additional 4 lower mount screws holding the front glass element to the housing. (NOTE: Many photographers know how to perform standard surgery on their lenses, given their limited time, budgets, and demanding schedules.) Naturally, Tamron has been very worried about material weight to improve lens portability, so the parts had a light but flimsy feel to them (a little pressure holding the ring in your hands, and the plastic can crack). However, what's worse is that when he showed me the removal of the front glass element, pieces of metal spacer filings started falling out from the sides with an uneven count. The actual glass sits on top of 4 separate sets of layered metal spacers that are physically hand placed in their grooves (not well-defined and move around easily) so that the glass can be suspended (minimizes vibration shock). Nevertheless, the tolerances of the metal spacers are not consistent, and even from the factory, an uneven number of spacers are placed underneath the lens, altering alignment by 1mm, even when placed in their appropriate groove (design and quality control issue). Furthermore, the top glass sits in its housing without any sealing, and so it was easy to see how dust particles could now enter from the top and the barrel chamber wall. Using masks to avoid any spitum, gloves for optic handling and to prevent oil smudging, in addition to a controlled system vacuum and hand held blower, the majority of dust was immediately removed. However, we noticed that two of the "dust" specs that initially caused the need to open the lens, were actually moisture spots that had dried on the underside of the front element and the surface of the first inner element. Again, knowing how they got in was very surprising and discomforting. Using lab grade micro-fiber lens paper, sterile throat swabs w/out glue, and high grade methanol, the spots were carefully and successfully removed without producing any scratches. Blowing out the chamber one last time, it turned out that reassembly became a struggle, given that the layers of spacers kept falling out whenever remounting the front glass element. This is a bad design issue that you don’t have with prime Canon lenses and some entry level Canon lens bodies (i.e. EF-S 55-250)! I have had my Canon 100-400mm f/4-5.6L for 3 years in very demanding environments, and the number of internal dust specs is less than or equal to 3 on the frontal element while remaining clear on the internal elements. Additionally, the build design doesn’t have loose parts and the cleaning process is a breeze given the solid metal components and well-designed tolerances in the machining! For many people, the Tamron 150-600mm will be “good enough” to compete with the market and create a ding in the oligopoly (traditionally Canon and Sigma for long range telephotos on EF DSLR mounts) of lens pricing, while obtaining comparable results to the big white whale brother lenses. However, for many professionals, the compromise of build quality is not acceptable and having to open your lens very early on and void the warranty is not a sign of a healthy relationship with your lens!
 
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You are a professional and need tools commensurate with your profession.

Some of your points are a little odd. Firstly, why do you say dust is flatter than sand? Dust particles are usually modelled to be spherical or cylindrical in scientific studies, ie the same shape as sand and certainly not flatter.

Secondly, you allude to your professional standard lenses as having a gold ring, and the 15-600mm not being in this class. Tamron used the gold ring cosmetically to designate its SP "Super performance lenses": see - http://www.tamron.eu/en/lenses/technology/sp-super-performance.html for a definition of them and their properties including robust outer design.

The Tamron 150-600mm is officially an SP lens: see - http://www.tamron.eu/en/lenses/overview/single/product/sp-150-600mm-f5-63-vc-usd-5.html?tx_keproducts_pi6[cam]=&tx_keproducts_pi6[vc]=false&tx_keproducts_pi6[sp]=false

The last thing I am going to do is to take my lens apart! If it fills up in the next five years with dust like a Dyson, I'll send it it back to Tamron under warranty.
 
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AlanF said:
Firstly, why do you say dust is flatter than sand? Dust particles are usually modelled to be spherical or cylindrical in scientific studies, ie the same shape as sand and certainly not flatter.

How dust is modeled in scientific studies isn't really relevant to it's ability to penetrate a 'dust-resistant seal'. Neither dust nor sand are actually spherical or cylindrical, but in general dust is smaller and has a higher surface to volume ratio than sand. Here's some household dust:

BP3016-Household-Dust-SEM.jpg


Some of it could certainly be described as 'flatter than sand'.
 
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et31 said:
Deciding to service it himself and remove the front element and apparent dust…

Why did he make that decision? Was the dust on internal lens elements having an observable effect on image quality?

et31 said:
having to open your lens very early on and void the warranty is not a sign of a healthy relationship with your lens!

I'd say it's a sign of something unhealthy…but not the lens. :o
 
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neuroanatomist said:
AlanF said:
Firstly, why do you say dust is flatter than sand? Dust particles are usually modelled to be spherical or cylindrical in scientific studies, ie the same shape as sand and certainly not flatter.

How dust is modeled in scientific studies isn't really relevant to it's ability to penetrate a 'dust-resistant seal'. Neither dust nor sand are actually spherical or cylindrical, but in general dust is smaller and has a higher surface to volume ratio than sand. Here's some household dust:

BP3016-Household-Dust-SEM.jpg


Some of it could certainly be described as 'flatter than sand'.


Are sand particles uniform in size and shape? Aren't some of them flatter and some of them smaller? It is a geometric truism that smaller objects (of similar shapes) have higher surface/volume ratios because volume varies as length cubed and area as length squared. By modelled, I mean that the shape of atmospheric dust particles is determined by their light scattering characteristics, and they usually come out on average as spherical or squat cylinders.
 
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AlanF said:
You are a professional and need tools commensurate with your profession.

Some of your points are a little odd. Firstly, why do you say dust is flatter than sand? Dust particles are usually modelled to be spherical or cylindrical in scientific studies, ie the same shape as sand and certainly not flatter.

Secondly, you allude to your professional standard lenses as having a gold ring, and the 15-600mm not being in this class. Tamron used the gold ring cosmetically to designate its SP "Super performance lenses": see - http://www.tamron.eu/en/lenses/technology/sp-super-performance.html for a definition of them and their properties including robust outer design.

The Tamron 150-600mm is officially an SP lens: see - http://www.tamron.eu/en/lenses/overview/single/product/sp-150-600mm-f5-63-vc-usd-5.html?tx_keproducts_pi6[cam]=&tx_keproducts_pi6[vc]=false&tx_keproducts_pi6[sp]=false

The last thing I am going to do is to take my lens apart! If it fills up in the next five years with dust like a Dyson, I'll send it it back to Tamron under warranty.

Yes, let me clarify those points.
1. I should have said that I was referring to dust particles that more than often come from organic matter (i.e. skin cells, fiber stands, decomposed dried plant matter in farm fields during the winter months that flies around everywhere, etc.), in addition to silt size aeolian particulates, as opposed to sand size particles at the ocean that contain quartz grains and other calcium carbonates (so, overall grains that are between silt, sandstone, and higher: 62.5 microns +), which have different refinement properties, and according to the level of weathering, can be angular or round.

2. Yes, I do acknowledge and have no doubt that the optics and design of the inner glass components reflect the SP rating present in the 150-600mm. However, given the build quality and new engineering of the housing components, the "robust outer design" is subjective only to whatever Tamron feels is correct to their design standards. All Canon white L lenses look alike, feel alike, and have a higher standard in material component integration in the designs; however, with three SP Tamron bodies in front of me, it's obvious that the telephoto model has property differences in engineering (outside from the fact that it's supposed to be light and portable) that doesn't reflect the same Tamron series (i.e. Change in manufacturer could be a reason, economic hit on material costs, or trying something new to change their lens lineup, etc.) It's a semi-pro lens and I understand that the market makes portable zoom telephotos (i.e. Sigma 150-500mm, Tamron 200-500mm, Tamron 150-600mm), but like you said earlier, you "need tools commensurate with your profession."

I embrace new lens designs and finding ways around spending $10-$20K on a telephoto; however, I just wish someone would come out with a long range telephoto that had smart and efficient engineering standards that reflected strengths in the optics AND the overall product that cost more than $1000, but still was far less expensive than the big guns.....maybe it's Sigma's turn to come out with a corrected version of their flawed 150-500m or Tamron will eventually come out with fixed long range telephoto lenses in the near future. Until then, Canon is laughing at us all, but gives us some credit for effort!
 

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