PetaPixel poops on the 6D2 sensor

[Jopa]

Jimmy McIntyre (creator of Raya Pro) has amazing videos of luminosity mask blending. Also f64 channel has very comprehensive videos about general blending in PS. And tutvids or Wex are good sources for photographers in PS in general.

That's the sad bit -- it's not like the internet isn't burying me in educational riches. 10-20 years ago, this would have required a course, a lucky connection to a pro, or (for me, most likely) grabbing a book and fighting through tutorials.

Now it's all on YouTube. I have no more excuses not to learn it.

This is the whole 'I won't replace my 5D3 until I've surpassed its limits' vow I've made -- it speaks to making a commitment to growing as a photographer and not just shooting what I like to shoot and processing how I like to process. I need to work harder at this, especially with tripod work. Merging 3-5 shots at the mercy of some HDR tool is madness, and I should strive to do better.

- A

I understand that. I've recently purchased two Zeiss lenses to challenge myself. Needless to say that manual focusing 85/1.4 without EVF is hell unleashed. Even with Eg-S superprecision screen. I'd love to have oldschool split-image with microprism collar, but current DSLRs are not much MF friendly anymore. I'm using LiveView with Magic Lantern and it's doable but not perfect. Currently contemplating getting some LCD loupe from Zacuto, which unfortunately isn't exactly cheap. Chioices choices

Have you seen a link to Kinotehnik I've sent you the other day https://www.kinotehnik.com/? Those are under $100 @ B&H.

 

[stevelee]

Actually, it would be nice if some of the more skilled folks on this forum (PBD, etc.) would start a thread providing some tips and guidance on their workflow in Lightroom/Camera Raw. I've been using Camera Raw for almost a decade (and Photoshop long before that) and still learn new things all the time.

I've found The Digital Negative by Jeff Schewe to be very helpful. I keep the Kindle version on my iPad, and refer to it when I have a few minutes to kill. I often discover a feature I had missed or a different way to do something that I'm used to doing differently. I've used Camera RAW so many years that I have a lot of habits. Sometimes that's good. Sometimes I miss a better way.

Some things in Lightroom and Camera RAW are based on work done by Schewe and his late collaborator Bruce Fraser.

 

[ahsanford]

Of course it is. And if you'd had spot metering linked to AF point you'd have completely lost any hope of getting that scenery back. Not having a dig, honestly.

Oh, wow -- totally missed this, sorry.

Agree, actually.

This isn't the instance I'd use that feature. In a shot like that one -- too much to reel in in one shot -- I knew I'd simultaneously be on both ends of the histo -- in that case, I stick with Evaluative and hope I don't clip too hard on either end.

I'd use spot metering at the linked AF point where I clearly have a subject that crushes all other exposure priorities. An off-center / large aperture / headshot candid-travel-street shot comes to mind. To hell if I blow out the background, I want to nail the subject there, and spot would help me do that if properly used.

Whereas the example I posted above is more an environmental shot to me where I very much wanted to balance the foreground and background. If I had a 1-series and spot metered off-center on my friends in that example, they would have looked great and I would not have had to push the shadows at all in post -- but the window would have been a sheet of white.

- A

 

[stevelee]

Very nicely done.

Appreciate that, but I see that shot being painfully overworked, IMHO.

However, I am glad that a very fond memory of a roadtrip with some lifelong friends was captured with at least some context in the background instead of a blown out sheet of glass. So sometimes, in some Machiavellian way, I tell myself it's okay to go wild with the sliders.

- A

As a demonstration of highlight recovery and filling in shadows, it is an excellent illustration.

As a picture, it makes me wonder whether it is a nice picture of some mountains with distracting people in the foreground, or a nice picture of some people with distracting mountains in the background. I would have used a lighter touch on the highlight recovery.

But as is, it successfully reinforces your point.

 

[privatebydesign]

Of course it is. And if you'd had spot metering linked to AF point you'd have completely lost any hope of getting that scenery back. Not having a dig, honestly.

Oh, wow -- totally missed this, sorry.

Agree, actually.

This isn't the instance I'd use that feature. In a shot like that one -- too much to reel in in one shot -- I knew I'd simultaneously be on both ends of the histo -- in that case, I stick with Evaluative and hope I don't clip too hard on either end.

I'd use spot metering at the linked AF point where I clearly have a subject that crushes all other exposure priorities. An off-center / large aperture / headshot candid-travel-street shot comes to mind. To hell if I blow out the background, I want to nail the subject there, and spot would help me do that if properly used.

Whereas the example I posted above is more an environmental shot to me where I very much wanted to balance the foreground and background. If I had a 1-series and spot metered off-center on my friends in that example, they would have looked great and I would not have had to push the shadows at all in post -- but the window would have been a sheet of white.

- A

Ok, but, in the spirit of a genuine conversation, if you have the time to change metering mode you have time to change EC. On the latest releases you can program both options onto a C button and have instant access to either.

I'm not saying other models shouldn't have the feature, they should, but it isn't as useful as you might think and there are other ways to achieve a good exposure in the situations you talk about. Indeed the easiest and fastest is the street photographer social of moderate wide angle, f8 hyperlocal focusing and in your head exposures, which are very satisfying when you give them a little practice.

And seriously, I am not being a dick here.

With my latest body I am enjoying Av mode with shutter speed set to one stop faster than auto and Auto iso with EC on the back dial. Complete control with a nice mixture of auto to help when the light changes a lot.

 

[Khalai]

Have you seen a link to Kinotehnik I've sent you the other day https://www.kinotehnik.com/? Those are under $100 @ B&H.

Thanks. Yes, I've seen it. Unfortunately, B&H does not have EU store AFAIK. But I've checked other brands, which are available locally. Basically no free lunch, you get what you pay for. I'll have to hop around and try a few LCD loupes at local photostores.

 

[ahsanford]

Ok, but, in the spirit of a genuine conversation, if you have the time to change metering mode you have time to change EC.

I bet the farm you'd bring up EC. ;D

(Totally fair point.)

- A

 

[privatebydesign]

Ok, but, in the spirit of a genuine conversation, if you have the time to change metering mode you have time to change EC.

I bet the farm you'd bring up EC. ;D

(Totally fair point.)

- A

It's one of the reasons I don't get on with BBF, I am always riding the rear dial with my thumb doing EC, but that is what I am used to since the 1V so I doubt I'll change.

Horses for courses....

 

[Pippan]

Ok, but, in the spirit of a genuine conversation, if you have the time to change metering mode you have time to change EC.

I bet the farm you'd bring up EC. ;D

(Totally fair point.)

- A

It's one of the reasons I don't get on with BBF, I am always riding the rear dial with my thumb doing EC, but that is what I am used to since the 1V so I doubt I'll change.

Horses for courses....

Private, I hope you don't mind me jumping in on A's free lesson but I'm wondering what your experience thinks of this. Playing with EC seems to be guesswork for me as well as taking time, plus I use BBF. What I'd have done if I were taking A's picture and had a few seconds to prepare is (on 80D in M) spot meter the brightest part of the sky out the window and adjust SS or ISO so the meter reads 2 2/3 above 0. This would keep the highlights just below clipping and the darker areas as light as they can be (albeit still darkish) to keep lightening them to a minimum. Thoughts?

 

[LesC]

PetaPixel say "The full frame 6D Mark II should have better image quality than the APS-C 80D when photos are examined at the same size, DPReview says, but test photos show that the 80D’s photos “shot with the same exposures look cleaner, when brightened to the same degree.”

Well, I have both cameras that that's not my experience, far from it. My original 6D produces much cleaner RAW files than my 80D at any iso, low or high. There's simply no comparison, the 6D is far superior.

 

[YuengLinger]

PetaPixel say "The full frame 6D Mark II should have better image quality than the APS-C 80D when photos are examined at the same size, DPReview says, but test photos show that the 80D’s photos “shot with the same exposures look cleaner, when brightened to the same degree.”

Well, I have both cameras that that's not my experience, far from it. My original 6D produces much cleaner RAW files than my 80D at any iso, low or high. There's simply no comparison, the 6D is far superior.

LesC, are you talking about version I of the 6D while PetaPixel is talking about version II? How have you personally been able to compare the 6DII to anything yet?

 

[LesC]

PetaPixel say "The full frame 6D Mark II should have better image quality than the APS-C 80D when photos are examined at the same size, DPReview says, but test photos show that the 80D’s photos “shot with the same exposures look cleaner, when brightened to the same degree.”

Well, I have both cameras that that's not my experience, far from it. My original 6D produces much cleaner RAW files than my 80D at any iso, low or high. There's simply no comparison, the 6D is far superior.

LesC, are you talking about version I of the 6D while PetaPixel is talking about version II? How have you personally been able to compare the 6DII to anything yet?

Sorry, should have made clear, I'm comparing the original 6D to the 80D (I don't have the 6d MKII ... yet).

But the DP Review article doesn't suggest the MKII is that much worse than the original, just that it's not much better. So I'm still expecting the MKII to be significantly better than my 80D.

 

[privatebydesign]

Ok, but, in the spirit of a genuine conversation, if you have the time to change metering mode you have time to change EC.

I bet the farm you'd bring up EC. ;D

(Totally fair point.)

- A

It's one of the reasons I don't get on with BBF, I am always riding the rear dial with my thumb doing EC, but that is what I am used to since the 1V so I doubt I'll change.

Horses for courses....

Private, I hope you don't mind me jumping in on A's free lesson but I'm wondering what your experience thinks of this. Playing with EC seems to be guesswork for me as well as taking time, plus I use BBF. What I'd have done if I were taking A's picture and had a few seconds to prepare is (on 80D in M) spot meter the brightest part of the sky out the window and adjust SS or ISO so the meter reads 2 2/3 above 0. This would keep the highlights just below clipping and the darker areas as light as they can be (albeit still darkish) to keep lightening them to a minimum. Thoughts?

Hi Pippan,

Very sound approach, like you say assuming you have the time to do the meter reading and then wind in the exposure corrections.

I would point out that 2 2/3 stops above meter reading is still going to leave a lot of headroom in your file. A neutral meter reading is around 2/3rds below midpoint and if we assume even the worst cameras have 9 stops of true scene recording DR you can take your lightest points to 5 stops above metered and still have a touch of headroom.

If you are shooting RAW don't forget the blinkies in playback will warn you of over exposure way before the RAW file hits that saturation point.

 

[Pippan]

Private, I hope you don't mind me jumping in on A's free lesson but I'm wondering what your experience thinks of this. Playing with EC seems to be guesswork for me as well as taking time, plus I use BBF. What I'd have done if I were taking A's picture and had a few seconds to prepare is (on 80D in M) spot meter the brightest part of the sky out the window and adjust SS or ISO so the meter reads 2 2/3 above 0. This would keep the highlights just below clipping and the darker areas as light as they can be (albeit still darkish) to keep lightening them to a minimum. Thoughts?

Hi Pippan,

Very sound approach, like you say assuming you have the time to do the meter reading and then wind in the exposure corrections.

I would point out that 2 2/3 stops above meter reading is still going to leave a lot of headroom in your file. A neutral meter reading is around 2/3rds below midpoint and if we assume even the worst cameras have 9 stops of true scene recording DR you can take your lightest points to 5 stops above metered and still have a touch of headroom.

If you are shooting RAW don't forget the blinkies in playback will warn you of over exposure way before the RAW file hits that saturation point.

Thanks Private, I would have thought too that there'd be way too much headroom but in practice very little (I use blinkies with picture style on Neutral and contrast turned right down, and I analyse all raws with FastRawViewer and sometimes, for more info, Rawdigger, to see how close to clipping (or how much is over) they really are. Maybe it's the way the spot meter is calibrated. Sometimes I can get away with 3 stops over or even 3 1/3 stops if the bright area is quite even across the spot meter area but definitely no more or large bright areas clip. Odd, especially since it's an 80D usually used at ISO 100 or 200.

 

[privatebydesign]

Hi Pippan,

Yes I wasn't very clear. 3 stops over is about ideal for good tonal retention in the highlights, depending on where your meter is actually metering. Mine was +2/8 so all my images were overexposed if I went by the meter.

It's interesting in that something seems to have changed in the Canon metering values, all my old cameras underexposed and had a ton of highlight headroom because of that, my new cameras are overexposing cutting highlight headroom but they have much greater capacity to lift shadows.

Personally I make a little test image and dial in my meters and then progressively over and under expose, then pull all those images into LightRoom and see what I am happy doing, what I can save and can't save etc etc. Certainly my latest cameras, even though I have the ability, and have, adjusted the meter offset, do not need an ETTR technique whereas my old ones very much did, I could easily pull over 3 stops down in the highlights, now, not so much but I have a lot more lower end to play with so I tend to expose to the offset meter or lower for midtones.

Here is a sample of my testing image. With this I can calibrate a metering offset and work out how under and over I can expose and retain detail. First image as metered, second over exposed three stops and then pulled three stops.

Great talk, thanks.

 

[SecureGSM]

Private,

If I may, Sir:

new mettering sensors in 5D IV or 80D is RGB type. now mettering sensor sees in colour, if you will.
old cameras were underexposing whites by around 2.8* stops and over exposing black by approx. 2.8* stops, as metering system treated all colors and levels as 18% grey. hence if I was spot mettering for the hilghlights with my trusty 6D, in order to place highlights right at the right edge of the histogram, I would typically increase exposure levels by +2.5 EV.
it turns out that modern RBG mettering system is mich smarter these days and no longer under or over expose buy such a large amount. I had only limited time to play with 5D IV but noticed that to ETTR, I needed only +0.7EV EC for spot metered highlights. blinkies were coming up on the lcd screen for jpgs at +0.5 EV level but really I was able to push RAW another +0.5EV. Again, I have very limited experience with 5D IV therefore all numbers are not exact.

*** -Usable DR of 6D sensor is 5.8 EV ( full is 9.8 EV, but less safety margins: 5.8EV only). old metering system treated spot metered highlights as mid greys and placed them right in the centre of the historgram: 5.8EV / 2 = 2.9EV shift on 6D, (2.7-2.8) EV shift on 5D III.

Hi Pippan,

Yes I wasn't very clear. 3 stops over is about ideal for good tonal retention in the highlights, depending on where your meter is actually metering. Mine was +2/8 so all my images were overexposed if I went by the meter.

It's interesting in that something seems to have changed in the Canon metering values, all my old cameras underexposed and had a ton of highlight headroom because of that, my new cameras are overexposing cutting highlight headroom but they have much greater capacity to lift shadows.

Personally I make a little test image and dial in my meters and then progressively over and under expose, then pull all those images into LightRoom and see what I am happy doing, what I can save and can't save etc etc. Certainly my latest cameras, even though I have the ability, and have, adjusted the meter offset, do not need an ETTR technique whereas my old ones very much did, I could easily pull over 3 stops down in the highlights, now, not so much but I have a lot more lower end to play with so I tend to expose to the offset meter or lower for midtones.

Here is a sample of my testing image. With this I can calibrate a metering offset and work out how under and over I can expose and retain detail. First image as metered, second over exposed three stops and then pulled three stops.

Great talk, thanks.

 

[Jack Douglas]

Boy I should be sleeping instead of reading a thread that's gotten as heavy as this! I might just have to give up photography since by theory I don't have a clue how to take or process a picture. Never the less people keep liking my photos, which reinforces the idea that the average public doesn't engage with the nuances that come up for discussion in CR threads. Thus, the 6D2 is going to sell well to people like me in spite of it being ______________ (adjective of your choice).

BTW PBD can be a little, shall we say "forthright", but I can vouch for his willingness to share knowledge, his helpfulness and his generosity! Much appreciated. In fact I think the vast majority of stalwarts on CR are similar.

Jack

 

[SecureGSM]

The average public does not give a rabbits rear past selfies and iPhone taken snapshots or "professional" Rebel bodies used in "A" ( A for Advanced ) mode. A family friend who is an award winning pro photog has no idea about 95% of the stuff that comes up in CR discussions on daily basis. This place is priceless!

... Never the less people keep liking my photos, which reinforces the idea that the average public doesn't engage with the nuances that come up for discussion in CR threads...

 

[Don Haines]

Boy I should be sleeping instead of reading a thread that's gotten as heavy as this! I might just have to give up photography since by theory I don't have a clue how to take or process a picture. Never the less people keep liking my photos, which reinforces the idea that the average public doesn't engage with the nuances that come up for discussion in CR threads. Thus, the 6D2 is going to sell well to people like me in spite of it being ______________ (adjective of your choice).

BTW PBD can be a little, shall we say "forthright", but I can vouch for his willingness to share knowledge, his helpfulness and his generosity! Much appreciated. In fact I think the vast majority of stalwarts on CR are similar.

Jack

Sometimes we get a bit "full of ourselves" on the forum. The average user in the real world shoots mostly in "green box mode" and most of the things discussed here have no bearing.....

BTW, have you ever tried "green box mode" ? I think that for most conditions under good lighting, that it does a really good job... bet that I could go out and shoot a bunch of images in it, post them here, and nobody could tell the difference between them..... hmmmmmmmmm....... must go conduct an experiment.......

 

[Khalai]

The average public does not give a rabbits rear past selfies and iPhone taken snapshots or "professional" Rebel bodies used in "A" ( A for Advanced ) mode. A family friend who is an award winning pro photog has no idea about 95% of the stuff that comes up in CR discussions on daily basis. This place is priceless!

... Never the less people keep liking my photos, which reinforces the idea that the average public doesn't engage with the nuances that come up for discussion in CR threads...

Do not forget "P" for "professional" mode as well