Phottix Odins, monolights, and HSS

[jonathan7007]

I know this is a sideline for this thread but I was pretty surprised to learn I might not be able to use my new Odins for my 5DMk3. Had used them just with my 1DsMk3 so far.

Tried it on 5DMk3 just now and one of the Odin rcvrs I have worked with 550EX, with the flash in the same room as my 5DMk3.

Phew!

 

[V8Beast]

I found a pretty sweet deal on some Bowens 750ws heads, so the new question is whether or not they'll work with the Odins in HSS

 

[risc32]

So i read a bit more, and sure enough as you thought some people are getting these faster shutter speeds with certain strobes. From what i've read you only have to enable HSS and start ramping up the shutter speed, but there was some talk about the flash needing to be at full power.....

what, if i may ask, are you up to that needs these shutter speeds?

 

[wickidwombat]

I found a pretty sweet deal on some Bowens 750ws heads, so the new question is whether or not they'll work with the Odins in HSS

hmmm i might know someone with some bowens heads give me a few days I'll see if i can test it out
bowens are good because the modifiers are cheaper, i buy elinchrom to bowens adapters so i can use cheaper bowens modifiers (elinchrom stuff is a bit spendy)

750ws ! thats some serious punch to be honest if i need that much power i'll just ganglight my 4 x 400ws ones
(never actually tried it but the ganglight concept should be the same as with speedlights, just a bit of trial and error to work out the optimal spacing)

 

[V8Beast]

I found a pretty sweet deal on some Bowens 750ws heads, so the new question is whether or not they'll work with the Odins in HSS

hmmm i might know someone with some bowens heads give me a few days I'll see if i can test it out
bowens are good because the modifiers are cheaper, i buy elinchrom to bowens adapters so i can use cheaper bowens modifiers (elinchrom stuff is a bit spendy)

750ws ! thats some serious punch to be honest if i need that much power i'll just ganglight my 4 x 400ws ones
(never actually tried it but the ganglight concept should be the same as with speedlights, just a bit of trial and error to work out the optimal spacing)

Man, if you could test out the Bowens/Odin combo that would be awesome. I'd owe you a big-time e-favor ;D Another appealing aspect of the Bowens 750 head is that it has a slow 1/650 flash duration at full power. I know that's the exact opposite of what most people are looking for in a flash head, since the goal is usually to freeze action, but the slower flash duration would work more favorably for hyper-syncing purposes when shooting static subjects.

Alternately, since my 550EXs don't have a sync port, I could try the "manual hack" method with one of these sync cords:

www.phottix.com/en/flash-accessories/phottix-duo-ttl-flash-remote-cord.html

The idea would be mounting one end of the cord along with a 550EX on top of the camera hot shoe, and then mounting the Odin on the other end of the cord. With the 550EX in master and HSS mode, the Odin transmitter should then be able to intercept the HSS signal between the Speedlite and the camera body and relay that signal to the Odin receivers, thereby triggering the monolights right before the shutter opens. At least that's the theory, and some people with the old school PocketWizards (MultiMax) claim that it actually works Even if it works, I'd much rather have a less ghetto solution

 

[jonathan7007]

There's a Nissan cord just like that which I bought on the recommendation of a CR Forum contributor, who usesit for events/weddings. It has a "External/Attached" switch on the base that allows you to change where the control occurs. The Odin is dangling at the end of the cord and the dual-hot-shoe end is on top of the camera so you can put a flash on the top of the camera. Of course, usually the Odin controller is expected to be up there on its own. (The dangling Odin goes in a pocket of your shirt I will come up with some other way to hold it, too. )

Interesting to use it for HSS-like set-up.

 

[Maui5150]

I need to study up on the Elinchrom product line. Ideally I'd like more power than the D-Lite 400s, but then again, with HSS i could kill the ambient much more easily, which means I could open up the aperture more, which means I wouldn't need as much power in the first place. Hmmm.... The RX 600 heads are too expensive for my budget, but very appealing.

I'd be tempted to try to run these off a Vagabond since the Elinchrom power supplies are so costly.

You might have to go with the Elinchrom power supplies. Not sure which you are looking at, most I see from them are digital and if you are looking at the Vagabond Lithium Mini, it may not work for you as you think.

The Lithium Mini is really designed for analog monolights and because of the way it recycles, it creates issues with digital lights. As an example, I cannot run my Photogenic PL2500DR or PL2500DRR off of the Mini... even just a single light, which technically the Vagabond should handle.

I can, however BARELY use the Vagabond with my PL1250DR, so only 500W/S versus 1000 W/S and even there only single light.

Now if I was using the PL1250 (Analog version) I should be able to power 2 fine.

This is something to do with the inverter, the voltage drops during the recycle and the stable power needed by the lights. The digital lights for the most part have a slightly higher requirement and at the bottom of the curve, the Vagabond is too low and "brownout" can be harmful to the digital components

You also notice all the Paul C Buff are analog. Not a coincidence.

Would be nicer if the Lithium had a little higher curve, but it is optimized for their line.

 

[V8Beast]

You might have to go with the Elinchrom power supplies. Not sure which you are looking at, most I see from them are digital and if you are looking at the Vagabond Lithium Mini, it may not work for you as you think.

The Lithium Mini is really designed for analog monolights and because of the way it recycles, it creates issues with digital lights. As an example, I cannot run my Photogenic PL2500DR or PL2500DRR off of the Mini... even just a single light, which technically the Vagabond should handle.

I can, however BARELY use the Vagabond with my PL1250DR, so only 500W/S versus 1000 W/S and even there only single light.

Now if I was using the PL1250 (Analog version) I should be able to power 2 fine.

This is something to do with the inverter, the voltage drops during the recycle and the stable power needed by the lights. The digital lights for the most part have a slightly higher requirement and at the bottom of the curve, the Vagabond is too low and "brownout" can be harmful to the digital components

You also notice all the Paul C Buff are analog. Not a coincidence.

Would be nicer if the Lithium had a little higher curve, but it is optimized for their line.

I hadn't considered the digital vs. analog issue, but I am now. Lots of people have experienced compatibility issues between newer variable voltage heads and the Vagabonds. The way I understand it, since heads like the Elinchrom 500 BXRi and Bowens Gemini Pros are designed to work with both 120v and 240v power outlets, the Vagabonds might have a hard time keeping up with the variations in voltage while the lights are recycling. The SE version of the Tronix Explorer battery pack was designed to address this issue, so that's probably what I'd go with if opting for the Elinchroms. Either that, or make a battery pack like wickidwombat's

 

[Maui5150]

You might have to go with the Elinchrom power supplies. Not sure which you are looking at, most I see from them are digital and if you are looking at the Vagabond Lithium Mini, it may not work for you as you think.

The Lithium Mini is really designed for analog monolights and because of the way it recycles, it creates issues with digital lights. As an example, I cannot run my Photogenic PL2500DR or PL2500DRR off of the Mini... even just a single light, which technically the Vagabond should handle.

I can, however BARELY use the Vagabond with my PL1250DR, so only 500W/S versus 1000 W/S and even there only single light.

Now if I was using the PL1250 (Analog version) I should be able to power 2 fine.

This is something to do with the inverter, the voltage drops during the recycle and the stable power needed by the lights. The digital lights for the most part have a slightly higher requirement and at the bottom of the curve, the Vagabond is too low and "brownout" can be harmful to the digital components

You also notice all the Paul C Buff are analog. Not a coincidence.

Would be nicer if the Lithium had a little higher curve, but it is optimized for their line.

I hadn't considered the digital vs. analog issue, but I am now. Lots of people have experienced compatibility issues between newer variable voltage heads and the Vagabonds. The way I understand it, since heads like the Elinchrom 500 BXRi and Bowens Gemini Pros are designed to work with both 120v and 240v power outlets, the Vagabonds might have a hard time keeping up with the variations in voltage while the lights are recycling. The SE version of the Tronix Explorer battery pack was designed to address this issue, so that's probably what I'd go with if opting for the Elinchroms. Either that, or make a battery pack like wickidwombat's

Not sure how much the variable voltage heads play a part, I think it is more the sensitivity of the digital components to brown outs.

Can't remember where I saw the technical paper and details, but after firing, the (and can't remember if it is current) the drop of power is just below the required steady power many of the digital strobes require. Some may be better than others.

I have also see other people who have tried recycle tests with some of the Elinchroms and while they do o.k. at lower power, once they boost up closer to full power, after firing they will throw E4 errors

With my photogenics, they are designed to discharge when powered off or when the wattage is decreased, so what I would see with the 2500s would be a fire, half charge, discharge, then full charge and they would be ready... in short, they did not like the current drop.

My guess with the Elinchrom power and why it is more expensive, it has a larger and better power inverter as well as not sure if the added in some capacitors, or just maintain more current and thus have a lower drop from a firing

 

[V8Beast]

bowens are good because the modifiers are cheaper, i buy elinchrom to bowens adapters so i can use cheaper bowens modifiers (elinchrom stuff is a bit spendy)

Just curious where I can find good deals on Bowens light modifiers? Looking at the B&H site, a lot of the Bowens stuff is just as expensive and sometimes more expensive that the Elinchrom modifiers. Standard general purpose Bowens reflectors runs $60-$80, whereas similar Elinchrom reflectors run $40-$50. The $240 Bowens charges for a set of barndoors seems little silly, too.

I was leaning toward Bowens, but not too sure anymore.

 

[V8Beast]

Not sure how much the variable voltage heads play a part, I think it is more the sensitivity of the digital components to brown outs.

Can't remember where I saw the technical paper and details, but after firing, the (and can't remember if it is current) the drop of power is just below the required steady power many of the digital strobes require. Some may be better than others.

I have also see other people who have tried recycle tests with some of the Elinchroms and while they do o.k. at lower power, once they boost up closer to full power, after firing they will throw E4 errors

With my photogenics, they are designed to discharge when powered off or when the wattage is decreased, so what I would see with the 2500s would be a fire, half charge, discharge, then full charge and they would be ready... in short, they did not like the current drop.

My guess with the Elinchrom power and why it is more expensive, it has a larger and better power inverter as well as not sure if the added in some capacitors, or just maintain more current and thus have a lower drop from a firing

More great info. Thanks for educating me

 

[wickidwombat]

bowens are good because the modifiers are cheaper, i buy elinchrom to bowens adapters so i can use cheaper bowens modifiers (elinchrom stuff is a bit spendy)

Just curious where I can find good deals on Bowens light modifiers? Looking at the B&H site, a lot of the Bowens stuff is just as expensive and sometimes more expensive that the Elinchrom modifiers. Standard general purpose Bowens reflectors runs $60-$80, whereas similar Elinchrom reflectors run $40-$50. The $240 Bowens charges for a set of barndoors seems little silly, too.

I was leaning toward Bowens, but not too sure anymore.

I buy the meking brand off ebay (usually about half of what the elinchroms cost), great quality and much better prices
i've got a big octobox and 2 x 6' tall strip lights with grids, with these 2 strips setup sideways I'm pretty sure i could light a whole car with 2 lights

I took a pic of my battery pack wiring i'll email it over, havent had a chance to get hold of the guy i know with bownes heads yet

how much can you get that 750w bowens head for?

I hit the wall with 1 x 400w in midday sun on the weekend, could have used more punch still worked great as fill with a beauty dish (also meking brand bowens mount)

http://stores.ebay.com/Meking-Equipments/_i.html?_nkw=soft box

 

[V8Beast]

I buy the meking brand off ebay (usually about half of what the elinchroms cost), great quality and much better prices
i've got a big octobox and 2 x 6' tall strip lights with grids, with these 2 strips setup sideways I'm pretty sure i could light a whole car with 2 lights

I took a pic of my battery pack wiring i'll email it over, havent had a chance to get hold of the guy i know with bownes heads yet

how much can you get that 750w bowens head for?

I hit the wall with 1 x 400w in midday sun on the weekend, could have used more punch still worked great as fill with a beauty dish (also meking brand bowens mount)

http://stores.ebay.com/Meking-Equipments/_i.html?_nkw=soft box

Thanks for the tip on the Meking modifiers and the battery.

I found a line on some refurb'd Bowens 750 heads for $380 USD. As nice as HSS would be, if I can get enough juice out of the lights, then I can do what I want the old fashioned way with an ND grad filter and a boat load of power

That's got me thinking about the White Lightning 3200s (1320 ws). Precise color temp isn't that critical for my needs, and the WLs have a five year warranty.

 

[wickidwombat]

i'll post up a couple of pics from the weekend using the elinchrom in HSS
you do lose power so its a bit of a trade off. Not really a problem in very low light or studio
but in mid day sun its a bit of an issue (however as i said before the ganglighting principle
works and works even better than it does with HSS on speedlights!)

 

[V8Beast]

i'll post up a couple of pics from the weekend using the elinchrom in HSS

Yes, please post pics! Would you happen to know if HSS also works with the Elinchrom 500BXRi and 600RX heads?

 

[wickidwombat]

i'll post up a couple of pics from the weekend using the elinchrom in HSS

Yes, please post pics! Would you happen to know if HSS also works with the Elinchrom 500BXRi and 600RX heads?

I can test on the 500s but not sure if they have the 600s i'll have to check

 

[wickidwombat]

here are a couple of shots
1 is 1/200 second and f10 i think
the other is f2 and 1/4000

both shot with the elinchrom 400w with 70cm beauty dish

 

[risc32]

i just won't go away. Perhaps you know this already but for those of you following along at home, the old school way of using an ND filter to get your shutter speed down into your cameras real max synch speed is the more efficient method. It's just slower, and you need a proper ND filter. i know, you don't believe me. check with david at the "strobist", he's much more creditable than i am... me? i'm just some dude gaffer tapping 580s and 430s together on a light stand in full sun at a wedding...

 

[V8Beast]

here are a couple of shots
1 is 1/200 second and f10 i think
the other is f2 and 1/4000

both shot with the elinchrom 400w with 70cm beauty dish

Very cool! Thanks for posting these pics.

 

[V8Beast]

Perhaps you know this already but for those of you following along at home, the old school way of using an ND filter to get your shutter speed down into your cameras real max synch speed is the more efficient method.

No argument here. Even so, if it's possible to HSS monolights and avoid the hassle of busting out the grad filters, I don't see how it hurts to at least explore that option.

It's just slower, and you need a proper ND filter. i know, you don't believe me. check with david at the "strobist", he's much more creditable than i am... me?

You mean to tell me you need a proper ND filter to use an ND filter? You don't say. What's next? Are you going to clue me in on how to turn on my camera ?

what, if i may ask, are you up to that needs these shutter speeds?

My apologies for missing this query earlier in the thread, but to answer your question, this is why I'm in search of fast sync speeds:

These are NOT my images. They were clearly taken by someone more talented than myself Nevertheless, I would like to emulate a similar effect, where the ambient light is almost entirely defeated during the middle of the day when it's properly bright outside. You read right. These shots were taken during the middle of the day, not at night. Over-powering the ambient in this fashion, then throwing some light on the subject, can yield some dramatic results.

I agree that the best way to accomplish this is with some ND grads. I'd just like to explore the HSS option, if that's OK with you