Pocket Wizards Plus III - what am I missing here?

[7enderbender]

Realistically, how many shoot with multiple flashes using ETTL?

Many who have mastered the world of multiple lights have done so using them all in manual mode.

With that in mind, do you really need full ETTL? Or just the ability to select a light and adjust its power up or down?

I've only ever used ETTL with my 30D and 40D using the on board flash...

I'm not saying these are a bargain, but the OP mentioned ETTL and i wondered if that was really necessary?
High Speed Sync is always a want, i agree - and the ability to select and control a light or group of lights, definitely, but ETTL?

That's exactly it. I would be ok to not have ETTL per se - but you kind of need it for HSS and manual control from the camera/controller. Meaning not the ETTL functionality but the two way communication that comes with it.

 

[V8Beast]

I think ETTL is fantastic for location shooting, impromptu shooting and when it comes to using speedlights really opens up the door to make things easier, especially with decent off-camera set ups, but I hardly use it. Most of my shooting is studio, though when I am using my 580 and Flex, I still tend to use manual settings as well

Most my gigs are on location, so my Speedlights get a lot of use. Ever had to hop on a plane with a studio lighting setup? Major PITA. That said, if you're shooting studio stuff most of the time, then without question, a monolight setup is the way to go.

 

[briansquibb]

I think ETTL is fantastic for location shooting, impromptu shooting and when it comes to using speedlights really opens up the door to make things easier, especially with decent off-camera set ups, but I hardly use it. Most of my shooting is studio, though when I am using my 580 and Flex, I still tend to use manual settings as well

Most my gigs are on location, so my Speedlights get a lot of use. Ever had to hop on a plane with a studio lighting setup? Major PITA. That said, if you're shooting studio stuff most of the time, then without question, a monolight setup is the way to go.

Mine are almost all location shots - on Thursday it is a theatre to take some publicity shots

 

[Maui5150]

I think ETTL is fantastic for location shooting, impromptu shooting and when it comes to using speedlights really opens up the door to make things easier, especially with decent off-camera set ups, but I hardly use it. Most of my shooting is studio, though when I am using my 580 and Flex, I still tend to use manual settings as well

Most my gigs are on location, so my Speedlights get a lot of use. Ever had to hop on a plane with a studio lighting setup? Major PITA. That said, if you're shooting studio stuff most of the time, then without question, a monolight setup is the way to go.

Again, photography is like so many other things... Tons and tons of tools and some applications are better served by others.

For the studio photographer, ETTL offers a bit less than say an out-and-about location photographer. In some cases, it offers a lot less, i.e. with some pre-flash of the Odins, it looks like it takes away from me using a light meter.

Can't remember if it was Scott McNally or one of the other Kelby guys, but he was doing some action shots in the desert and to have enough light for one of the shots, he had something light 4 Speed Lights all joined together. Overkill for what most need, but does get pricey.

Output can matter as well. 430 throws less light, but recycles faster, so if you don't need the master mode, in many cases 2 430s will be a better option than a single 580 and close to the same price.

I mentioned the studio setting because of comments that there was almost no reason not to go with ETTL which is not necessarily true. I do use it on occasion, have some of my gear that can take advantage of it, but most of my shots are done without. Most of the time I have used my speedlight for a quick add in hair light with some of the cheap speedlight soft boxes.

It will be interesting to see what Canon comes out with for possibly a newer replacement for the 580. Not sure strobes will ever go away, but perhaps if their comes a time when the speed lights start getting sick guide numbers and faster recycle times, that may become more of an option.

Portability is definitely a huge strength of the speedlight, and one I considered greatly after testing a Vagabond Mini LI a while. Though it has two outlets, because my strobes are digital, the wave they need to recycle properly exceeds the Mini... Generally it is fine with a single PL2500DR, but if I try and do two, the recycle struggles. I still like my strobes, their remote capabilities, their power, their recycle, and their adjustability... but far from light and portable. That is why I have both. Maybe after I have picked up a few more speed lights I might find I can use them more in the studio as well, but it is always nice to have options

 

[JimKarczewski]

Output can matter as well. 430 throws less light, but recycles faster, so if you don't need the master mode, in many cases 2 430s will be a better option than a single 580 and close to the same price.

I'd be happy to use 430's in my application, but the problem is, there is no external battery pack connector which really pisses me off with these. I have to use 580's because I need the battery pack for recycle times, but I could get away probably with the same thing using 430's if they had a port... only a port.

 

[briansquibb]

Output can matter as well. 430 throws less light, but recycles faster, so if you don't need the master mode, in many cases 2 430s will be a better option than a single 580 and close to the same price.

I'd be happy to use 430's in my application, but the problem is, there is no external battery pack connector which really pisses me off with these. I have to use 580's because I need the battery pack for recycle times, but I could get away probably with the same thing using 430's if they had a port... only a port.

Just go for more 430s - faster recycle time that way. Rechargables are better than alkaline for recycle

 

[SPG]

I'd be happy to use 430's in my application, but the problem is, there is no external battery pack connector which really pisses me off with these. I have to use 580's because I need the battery pack for recycle times, but I could get away probably with the same thing using 430's if they had a port... only a port.

Have you tried the PowerGenix NiZn 1.6v batteries? I started using them in my 430exII and I am shocked at how fast they recycle. Faster than eneloops, faster than I recall I could get with my old battery pack (which I don't have anymore to check against). Full power dump to full recycle looks like under a second. I'm going to film it and check against timecode to see how fast they really are.

 

[wickidwombat]

Not to be a troll here, but if you use a ettl-flash and include it in the picture, you'll never get the result you want, or if you move around your subject and want the same light constantly. ETTL is fantastic for a lot of things, but I use it mainly for the line of communication to control power from camera.

Everytime I'm out shooting on a bright day, ettl just doesn't work for me as it just fills very gently in when I want POWER, then I have to FEL the subject, but that's two pushes and it often doesn't come out right if I hit the lock on the subjects darker area (if it moves) instead of face, maybe, and it's completely off, waisting 5 seconds.

I always set it to manual power outdoors and get the same consistent light no matter what is in the way (gobo's for example) or shadow or sun or both, I can get the same exact light every time. Not saying is auto and for noobs, but I feel you get what I mean. It's the best thing to happen to flash ever, but for ME it's not consistent enough in a given setting.

Agreed, quite often I will deliberately go with manual to avoid ettl doing unexpected things as you described.
Still for certain situations I love ettl like run and gun on camera flash with weddings. I like to use 580ex flashes so i have the choice of shooting ettl, manual high speed sync or whatever I need

 

[SPG]

Have you tried the PowerGenix NiZn 1.6v batteries? I started using them in my 430exII and I am shocked at how fast they recycle. Faster than eneloops, faster than I recall I could get with my old battery pack (which I don't have anymore to check against). Full power dump to full recycle looks like under a second. I'm going to film it and check against timecode to see how fast they really are.

I just filmed two 430exIIs fired from remote trigger at full power and timed them to see how long they took to recycle. The NiZn battery powered flash took 32 frames which equals 1.067 seconds, so let's just call it a second. Regular old Duracells took almost 9 seconds, but I don't think they were very fresh so let's not really count that. Typical recycle with alkalines will still be about 5-7 seconds.
Point being that you don't really need a battery pack anymore if you just want a fast recycle time. Battery pack will still keep you firing for more shots, but the recycle time is easy to get now without a pack.

 

[V8Beast]

This is kinda off topic, but why no love for the 550EX? It puts out more juice than the 430, can be used as a master, and costs only $200 used on ebay. I love mine.

 

[briansquibb]

Have you tried the PowerGenix NiZn 1.6v batteries? I started using them in my 430exII and I am shocked at how fast they recycle. Faster than eneloops, faster than I recall I could get with my old battery pack (which I don't have anymore to check against). Full power dump to full recycle looks like under a second. I'm going to film it and check against timecode to see how fast they really are.

I just filmed two 430exIIs fired from remote trigger at full power and timed them to see how long they took to recycle. The NiZn battery powered flash took 32 frames which equals 1.067 seconds, so let's just call it a second. Regular old Duracells took almost 9 seconds, but I don't think they were very fresh so let's not really count that. Typical recycle with alkalines will still be about 5-7 seconds.
Point being that you don't really need a battery pack anymore if you just want a fast recycle time. Battery pack will still keep you firing for more shots, but the recycle time is easy to get now without a pack.

Do people still use Duracells? I stopped using those when they started to overheat.

I am now using 2900 rechargeables - they keep cool, recycle faster and last all day - and are cheap

 

[Viggo]

Do people still use Duracells? I stopped using those when they started to overheat.

I am now using 2900 rechargeables - they keep cool, recycle faster and last all day - and are cheap

Wow, so you use 725 flashes? ;D ;D

 

[briansquibb]

Do people still use Duracells? I stopped using those when they started to overheat.

I am now using 2900 rechargeables - they keep cool, recycle faster and last all day - and are cheap

Wow, so you use 725 flashes? ;D ;D

: : : : ;D ;D ;D

 

[SPG]

Have you tried the PowerGenix NiZn 1.6v batteries? I started using them in my 430exII and I am shocked at how fast they recycle. Faster than eneloops, faster than I recall I could get with my old battery pack (which I don't have anymore to check against). Full power dump to full recycle looks like under a second. I'm going to film it and check against timecode to see how fast they really are.

I just filmed two 430exIIs fired from remote trigger at full power and timed them to see how long they took to recycle. The NiZn battery powered flash took 32 frames which equals 1.067 seconds, so let's just call it a second. Regular old Duracells took almost 9 seconds, but I don't think they were very fresh so let's not really count that. Typical recycle with alkalines will still be about 5-7 seconds.
Point being that you don't really need a battery pack anymore if you just want a fast recycle time. Battery pack will still keep you firing for more shots, but the recycle time is easy to get now without a pack.

Do people still use Duracells? I stopped using those when they started to overheat.

I am now using 2900 rechargeables - they keep cool, recycle faster and last all day - and are cheap

It just happened to be what I had on hand.

 

[smirkypants]

Anyone else think that the folks at Pocket Wizard are dropping bricks right about now? There is increasing pressure from the low end of the market, given the Phottix Odins cost less, and by all accounts work just as well or better. The Pixel Kings, even a lower priced option, also seem to work well and both systems are TTL. Now there is increasing pressure from the high end as Canon introduces its own system that may very well eat into the sales to those with large budgets.

Who is left to buy their overpriced triggers? You used to NEVER see used PWs on eBay, but now there are plenty.

If I'm the CEO of PW, I'm not sleeping well.

 

[Maui5150]

Anyone else think that the folks at Pocket Wizard are dropping bricks right about now? There is increasing pressure from the low end of the market, given the Phottix Odins cost less, and by all accounts work just as well or better. The Pixel Kings, even a lower priced option, also seem to work well and both systems are TTL. Now there is increasing pressure from the high end as Canon introduces its own system that may very well eat into the sales to those with large budgets.

Who is left to buy their overpriced triggers? You used to NEVER see used PWs on eBay, but now there are plenty.

If I'm the CEO of PW, I'm not sleeping well.

Not sure. Odins are a little cheaper, but not by much. Retail of a Flex/Mini combo is $420 versus $360 so about 15% cheaper, but Odins will not work with any of the PW units that are out there already, and there are MILLIONS of PW, PWIIs and MultiMax in the market. The Canon system looks so so, but only works with the 600 and can't fire any other flash or studio strobes, so is pretty much useless to some of us out there. That is also not to say Odins are any cheaper because when I look at Norman, ProFoto, Photogenic and Sekonic, many of their strobes or devices have BUILT-IN PW triggers.

Now for a brand new photographer with no gear, then you may have some arguments, but the Canon solution is useless is most studios, and while the Odin can fire older Strato triggers, for many shooters, this is a more expensive option since their devices already have PWs built in

Now if Canon makes a trigger to be used with strobe or flashes via Sync, then maybe it has some impact.

 

[Loswr]

Now if Canon makes a trigger to be used with strobe or flashes via Sync, then maybe it has some impact.

I would not be at all surprised if Canon has such a device ready to go, and is just waiting for the 600EX-RT and ST-E3 sales to run for a while, to pull in the customers willing to change to that system entirely. Then, Canon's marketing cowboys will get on their white horses and ride to the rescue with the new Canon RR-1 (Remote Receiver-1), which via RF can hotshoe trigger most existing Canon EX strobes (but not the 270EX - solely a firmware limitation). Then flashzebra can come out with a hotshoe-to-PC-sync adapter for the RR-1, and photographers who need to integrate with monolights or 3rd party flashes can get on with their lives... :

 

[smirkypants]

Not sure. Odins are a little cheaper, but not by much. Retail of a Flex/Mini combo is $420 versus $360 so about 15% cheaper, but Odins will not work with any of the PW units that are out there already, and there are MILLIONS of PW, PWIIs and MultiMax in the market. The Canon system looks so so, but only works with the 600 and can't fire any other flash or studio strobes, so is pretty much useless to some of us out there. That is also not to say Odins are any cheaper because when I look at Norman, ProFoto, Photogenic and Sekonic, many of their strobes or devices have BUILT-IN PW triggers.

Now for a brand new photographer with no gear, then you may have some arguments, but the Canon solution is useless is most studios, and while the Odin can fire older Strato triggers, for many shooters, this is a more expensive option since their devices already have PWs built in

Now if Canon makes a trigger to be used with strobe or flashes via Sync, then maybe it has some impact.

Hmm. I know very little about studio gear since all of my portraiture is run & gun. I have 4 flexes and a couple of cranky 580s. The 430s work great and I almost always bring those instead. Still, this was a decision made a bit ago and I probably wouldn't make the same decision again given the high costs.

Your price difference is just for the basic set of two, but each additional Odin receiver is about $130 whereas each additional flex is $100 more than that. If you have 4 flashes, the differences really add up.
5 flexes + AC3 Zone controler (I don't like the mini because of the battery) = $1230
1 Odin trigger + 4 receivers = $850
A 44% difference. Not insignificant. But I'm sure you're right about studio lighting.

 

[Maui5150]

Hmm. I know very little about studio gear since all of my portraiture is run & gun. I have 4 flexes and a couple of cranky 580s. The 430s work great and I almost always bring those instead. Still, this was a decision made a bit ago and I probably wouldn't make the same decision again given the high costs.

Your price difference is just for the basic set of two, but each additional Odin receiver is about $130 whereas each additional flex is $100 more than that. If you have 4 flashes, the differences really add up.
5 flexes + AC3 Zone controler (I don't like the mini because of the battery) = $1230
1 Odin trigger + 4 receivers = $850
A 44% difference. Not insignificant. But I'm sure you're right about studio lighting.

Well that 44% difference is a little disingenuous because you are making a $100 difference based upon battery, when in fact, you could even stock up on the small battery (I just picked a pair up off of Amazon for $4.50 including shipping) and never have to chance running out again for only $20.

Likewise, for my situation, I have a mini, 1 flex, and fire 2 Photogenic PL2500DRRs, 1 Photogenic PL1250DR and a 580 EX II. My cost for my PW solution is $430 (I only paid $375 for the Mini and Flex though) and I fire 4 lights, and that would cost me $850 with Phottix???

As well. My Sekonic light meter (L-758R) will trigger the lights, and metering with the Odins is a real pain because of the pre-flash which can't be turned off compared to what I can do, so in a Studio evironment, the Phottix solution can be 200% the cost of mine.

Likewise... What is your total watts and recycle time of your 4 580s versus 2 PL2500DRRs, a PL1250DR and a 580? I think if I wanted the same amount of light from 580s, I would need 10.

I think e-TTL does some great things, I think speedlites are also fantastic, but I also can see in many cases size matters, both ways... Bigger can sometimes be better, and portability is great too. When I start seeing 3 - 4 speedlites being thrown inside an Octabox, that is a $2000 light modifier. That is expensive portability.

How many Odin / Strato units are out there, versus how many PW, PW II, MultiMax, Flex5 and now PWIII. If you needed to borrow a unit? Which could you find more easily. Part of the PW is the number out in the market and the fact that if you have had one for 5 years, it will work with the PW III. You still may have to pick up a couple of units to take full advantage, but when I click my Sekonic, my strobes fire. That is something the Canon system can't do nor the Odins.

Maybe 10 years from now Strobes will be a thing of the past, and everything will be speed lites, only time will tell.

 

[smirkypants]

Well that 44% difference is a little disingenuous because you are making a $100 difference based upon battery, when in fact, you could even stock up on the small battery (I just picked a pair up off of Amazon for $4.50 including shipping) and never have to chance running out again for only $20.

I'm not trying to be disingenuous or combative, I'm just saying what would replace my current setup. I'm just saying what it would cost to replace. And the mini is only $30 less than the flex. I prefer having an extra flex. I'm just saying I paid a lot more and I have trouble with my 580EX II at range. We want different things.