popup-flash - made a "pro feature"?

[DominoDude]

I can't say that I hate pop-up flash. I have it and on occasion I use it, but I'm certainly no big fan of it. Putting a pop-up flash on a pro body would make me look for alternatives. It's hard to imagine such a flash, with a GN high enough, and without putting a severe penalty on the numbers of shots the battery would last. The current ways of positioning pop-up flash also leaves a little more to be desired - it's awfully close to the optical axle, and can't be swirled or tilted.

I'd rather save up to an old style hammerhead flash from Metz, than go with a built-in flash on pro bodies.

 

[tolusina]

Only slightly less convenient than a pop up is a 90EX in your pocket, same limited range, same harsh shadows, same optical trigger capability.
I keep one in my kit for those occasions where my photos only need to demonstrate I was there, I saw, verified, recorded and reported. Most of these aren't pretty but they are concisely descriptive.
Most of this work I can shoot without flash, just crank the 6D's ISO up, by the time I've resized down to the clients' 800x533 spec, noise in barely apparent.

Also in my kit is an ST-E3-RT and one or two 600EX-RTs for times when more elaborate lighting is needed, like maybe I want a nice photo rather than a just banal snapshot.

I doubt we'll see radio control built into camera bodies, each market would need its own version according to local regulations.
---
Terry Richardson is one, so called, pro who's signature style is on camera flash. I suspect a portion of his success and marketability is due to his subjects more than his style.
How he succeeds as a pro is beyond me, even more mysterious than Gursky though I surely don't mean to draw any parallels between the two, their work or their work ethics.
---

....

Is the 6D a 'pro body'? ....

Are you implying it's not?

 

[Chuck Alaimo]

We have all seen the discussions, about why popup-flash is left out on the pro bodies from Canon. Those in favour of leaving it out says it is because it can break, and it is not a "pro feature".

Is the 6D a 'pro body'?

IMO, it's a marketing decision. Canon wants your money. FF bodies (from Canon) don't have a popup flash. FF bodies cost more. Canon figures if you need a flash and can afford a FF body, you can afford a Speedlite.

The 6D is pro in the sense that it is full frame, demanding EF-lenses. Which sure sell at pro prices

If it is a marketing descition, it sure is not a good one (IMHO). Portability is more and more an argument being used, with all the mirrorless cameras making their entry into the full frame market (Sony). Lugging around a speedlite in adition to a big dSLR is... annoying. Yet another thing to bring along.

I think it would be wise to implement a popup flash in the 5D4 (and/or 1DxII), and make it special, not just a simple popup. Like others have said, HSS, flip/tilt functionality etc.

ummm...there are tons of EF lens that aren't pro or at pro prices....the 50mm 1.8 is EF...it's $100!!!!! L lenses are pro build with pro price tags.....not all EF's are L's...

 

[Pitbullo]

I can't say that I hate pop-up flash. I have it and on occasion I use it, but I'm certainly no big fan of it. Putting a pop-up flash on a pro body would make me look for alternatives. It's hard to imagine such a flash, with a GN high enough, and without putting a severe penalty on the numbers of shots the battery would last. The current ways of positioning pop-up flash also leaves a little more to be desired - it's awfully close to the optical axle, and can't be swirled or tilted.

I'd rather save up to an old style hammerhead flash from Metz, than go with a built-in flash on pro bodies.

You hit the nail on the head here!
The flash cant be bounced or directed any other way than straight ahead. That is why I started this thread. What would make a popup-flash good enough to earn aplace on a pro body. I got the idea from my wifes little Sony NEX-6. There the flash can be bounced from the celing. Brilliant!!

 

[Don Haines]

Direct light coming off the camera is horrendous.
I honestly can't think of a useful way to use a pop-up flash (other than blinding people in dark rooms so that you can run away).

Bounce it off the celing?

put a sheet of tissue paper (Kleenex or toilet tissue) over the pop-up flash....it does wonders to soften the light

 

[Sporgon]

Count me firmly in the camp of pop up flash hater.

+1, check me into that camp. I have no objections to them being fitted to an appropriate body, but IMO this just doesn't include any expensive, well built camera that has a solid integrity. If you want to have casual, direct fill in flash or even general flash, OK, but why on earth bother wasting your money on expensive and sophisticated cameras for what you are doing ?

Pop up flashes are weak both physically and in output. They can't HSS which can be very important for fill, especially with fast lenses. They can't bounce.

I think Canon's attitude is 'if you're spending all this money on a body, and want FF instead of APS when the difference is only seen by the connoisseur what do you want pop up flash for anyway ?'

Nikon. Now Nikon are just trying to ensure absolutely nothing is left off the camera where people might pass it by.

There will be those who say 'I want an expensive camera but a cheap trigger / crap fill' but it looks like they are in the minority as far as Canon is concerned.

Really hope the 7DII doesn't have PUF.

Just seen the comment by the OP; trouble is it is far too weak to be much practical use, certainly a mile from 'pro'.

Don's tissue does work well but doesn't overcome the most pressing limitations.

 

[mrsfotografie]

Direct light coming off the camera is horrendous.
I honestly can't think of a useful way to use a pop-up flash (other than blinding people in dark rooms so that you can run away).

Fill flash?

It's still the worst place for light to come from regardless if its the primary light source or fill. In every conceivable circumstance i would want my fill coming from off camera..even if its slightly off axis.

To me pop up flash doesnt belong on the pro bodies simply because of the location in which the light is coming from (directly above lens). The optical master argument is a thin one, every flash is an optical master (which is the problem with optical triggering...you cant prevent other sources from triggering your strobes).

Would having a pop up flash on the 5d or 1dx bother me even if I never used it? Yes. Those things inevitably and stupidly seem to end up popping up on their own causing distraction and getting in the way.

Count me firmly in the camp of pop up flash hater.

I don't like pop up flash much either, especially because of the shadow cast by big(ger) lenses.

I don't make use of it much, but here's fill flash at work from the hotshoe (Metz Mecablitz 48 external flash). The twinkle in the eyes and definition in the face would definitely not have happened without the flash. Note that the shadows aren't pushed in PP for this shot.

 

[surapon]

Dear Friends.
Sorry, I am not the PRO, But some of my Canon DSLR have Pop-Up Flash---Yes, It most useful for Fill - in light when The sun at the back of subject---BUT I must use my DIY White paper as the photos below, or Use my Clean tissue in my pant pocket cover the Pop-Up flash and tie down with rubber band.
Yes, Cheap and work for me , But for Fill flash/ Pop up flash with white paper cover must to be 4-5 feet distant from the Lens to the face of portrait model----Yes, Instead of cheap white copy paper, We can use the Wax Paper or Translusive Drafting Paper too= Yes It work better than White Copy Paper at the longer distant from the subject.
Yes, I have a great Boss/ Great Architect ( for 5 Years during 1975 to 1980),who Teach me = " The Great Architects same as the Great Chef , who can use the Chicken's S--t to make a great Chicken Salads"---Yes, Some time Useless Pop-up flash can be the Life saving Photos for the photographers like us, if we know how to use them.

Enjoy.
Surapon

 

[Loswr]

Is the 6D a 'pro body'?

Are you implying it's not?

Does Canon Europe consider the 6D to be 'for professionals'?

http://www.canon-europe.com/For_Home/Product_Finder/Cameras/Digital_SLR/professional/

http://www.canon-europe.com/For_Home/Product_Finder/Cameras/Digital_SLR/enthusiasts/

Note that whether or not Canon considers a body to be 'pro' has no relevance to what photographer uses it. Plenty of professional photographers use xxD bodies, and I hear there are even some enthusiasts that use a 1D X.

 

[surapon]

Architects same as the Great Chef , who can use the Chicken's S___ to make a great Chicken Salads"---Yes, Some time Useless Pop-up flash can be the Life saving Photos for the photographers like us, if we know how to use them.
Enjoy
Surapon

PS, All Photos are no Post processing , except reduce the size to fit below 1 MB.

 

[scottkinfw]

Nice post Surapon.

One time I was out shooting and sadly, my flash died. I was glad that my 50D had a pop up to catch a Dik Dik in the shadows, which I otherwise would have missed.

sek

Dear Friends.
Sorry, I am not the PRO, But some of my Canon DSLR have Pop-Up Flash---Yes, It most use full Fill - in light when The sun at the back of subject---BUT I must use my DIY White paper as the photos below, or Use my Clean tissue in my pant pocket cover the Pop-Up flash and tie down with rubber band.
Yes, Cheap and work for me , But for Fill flash/ Pop up flash with white paper cover must to be 4-5 feet distant from the Lens to the face of portrait model----Yes, Instead of cheap white copy paper, We can use the Wax Paper or Translusive Drafting Paper too= Yes It work better than White Copy Paper at the longer distant from the subject.
Yes, I have a great Boss/ Great Architect ( for 5 Years during 1975 to 1980),who Teach me = " The Great Architects same as the Great Chef , who can use the Chicken's S--t to make a great Chicken Salads"---Yes, Some time Useless Pop-up flash can be the Life saving Photos for the photographers like us, if we know how to use them.

Enjoy.
Surapon

 

[tolusina]

Is the 6D a 'pro body'?

Are you implying it's not?

Does Canon Europe consider the 6D to be 'for professionals'?

http://www.canon-europe.com/For_Home/Product_Finder/Cameras/Digital_SLR/professional/

http://www.canon-europe.com/For_Home/Product_Finder/Cameras/Digital_SLR/enthusiasts/

Note that whether or not Canon considers a body to be 'pro' has no relevance to what photographer uses it. Plenty of professional photographers use xxD bodies, and I hear there are even some enthusiasts that use a 1D X.

Irrelevant how the manufacturer or seller classifies a product, it's the consumer who determines its actual use.

Both sides of the coin (the links you posted) work too as you've so eloquently noted, non-pros buy Canon classified pro bodies with no apparent ill effects, no law suits, no jail time for daring to use pro gear for personal use.

Of course, if one is a corporate shill like the Samsung rep I encountered yesterday, corporate knows best, end users should compliantly and placidly accept corporate edicts with no question.

 

[sagittariansrock]

I sincerely can't accept the reasoning of those who want 'no pop up flash' as opposed to merely not wanting them.

The weather-sealing is a total marketing BS. The D810, which is 'heavily weather-sealed' has a pop-up flash. As it is, the 5DIII isn't as weather sealed as the 1D cameras, and the 6D is sealed even less.

The rigidity issue is also hard to swallow. They could just use stronger materials.

As Neuro said, it is all about marketing and selling shoe-mount flashes.

Now, to those who say pop-up flashes are terrible, there is a nice solution called the Lightscoop (you can Google it). I got it for free with my 600EX (imagine the irony, as this thing only works with pop-up flashes), but tested it with a friend's camera. Here are the results- the room was completely dark, about 12' x 12' with 9' ceiling, and the flash was the only source of light.

 

[Timothy_Bruce]

On the 7D I use the build in flash only to trigger speedlights,but that works great in most indoor an macro situations.

 

[Loswr]

Note that whether or not Canon considers a body to be 'pro' has no relevance to what photographer uses it.

Irrelevant how the manufacturer or seller classifies a product, it's the consumer who determines its actual use.

Thanks for rephrasing my statement.

Of course, if one is a corporate shill like the Samsung rep I encountered yesterday, corporate knows best, end users should compliantly and placidly accept corporate edicts with no question.

Speaking of relevance, does this have any?

Regardless, the point of the thread is to suggest that Canon omits the popup flash from 'pro bodies', and my point is that Canon (at least, one of their major divisions) doesn't consider the 6D to be a pro body, yet it lacks a popup flash.

 

[jdramirez]

Pop up flash is quite low on my priority list. Give me integrated rf triggering with second curtain and I'm a happy camper. Want a built in flash alternative, get a 90ex for the instances where you need a flash. Fifty bucks... done.

 

[Lee Jay]

It's still the worst place for light to come from regardless if its the primary light source or fill.

If that were true, no one would use ring lights. But they do.

 

[wickidwombat]

make it a bit bigger and more powerfull this would kill battery life but hey cant have your cake and eat it
and include the ability to tilt 90 degrees to be able to bounce

 

[agierke]

It's still the worst place for light to come from regardless if its the primary light source or fill.

If that were true, no one would use ring lights. But they do.

when a ring light is used the light is coming from top, bottom, right and left of the lens position creating a unique look entirely different than the look from a pop up flash. you cant be serious with that post...

Architects same as the Great Chef , who can use the Chicken's S___ to make a great Chicken Salads"---Yes, Some time Useless Pop-up flash can be the Life saving Photos for the photographers like us, if we know how to use them.
Enjoy
Surapon

PS, All Photos are no Post processing , except reduce the size to fit below 1 MB.

with all due deference to your ingenuity surapon, the quality of light from your fill flash is still poor. you can season chicken S___ as much as you like....its still chicken S___ that you are eating.

regardless of how you spin it, quality of light has a great deal with the direction it is coming from. directly over the lens is about the least desirable position for light to come from. size, intensity and ability to shape your light source also contribute to quality of light and pop up flash fails to achieve any merit in any of these criteria.

photography quite literally translates to "writing with light". understanding quality of light and how to manipulate it is paramount for professional photography. a pop up flash is so far on the other side of desirable that its hard to put into words. put it this way...once one is introduced to lighting, lesson #1 is get the light off the camera.

sry, i just can't fathom anyone that is remotely serious about lighting defending a pop up flash on a professional level body.

 

[jdramirez]

It's still the worst place for light to come from regardless if its the primary light source or fill.

If that were true, no one would use ring lights. But they do.

when a ring light is used the light is coming from top, bottom, right and left of the lens position creating a unique look entirely different than the look from a pop up flash. you cant be serious with that post...

Architects same as the Great Chef , who can use the Chicken's S___ to make a great Chicken Salads"---Yes, Some time Useless Pop-up flash can be the Life saving Photos for the photographers like us, if we know how to use them.
Enjoy
Surapon

PS, All Photos are no Post processing , except reduce the size to fit below 1 MB.

with all due deference to your ingenuity surapon, the quality of light from your fill flash is still poor. you can season chicken S___ as much as you like....its still chicken S___ that you are eating.

regardless of how you spin it, quality of light has a great deal with the direction it is coming from. directly over the lens is about the least desirable position for light to come from. size, intensity and ability to shape your light source also contribute to quality of light and pop up flash fails to achieve any merit in any of these criteria.

photography quite literally translates to "writing with light". understanding quality of light and how to manipulate it is paramount for professional photography. a pop up flash is so far on the other side of desirable that its hard to put into words. put it this way...once one is introduced to lighting, lesson #1 is get the light off the camera.

sry, i just can't fathom anyone that is remotely serious about lighting defending a pop up flash on a professional level body.

Are we talking about gizzards? Gizzards are gross. My grandparents used to claim that they were the same thing as nuggets... damn liars.