Possible Canon EOS 5D Mark IV Spec Talk [CR2]

[Lee Jay]

5D IV possibility:

1Dx mirror assembly.
Fast processing (DIGIC 7, whatever) to support 4k/30 from a high resolution (i.e. 24+MP) sensor.
10-12fps.

1DX Mark II possibility:

Electronic global shutter.
Same fast processor * 2 supports 30fps at full res (20+MP).
On-sensor PDAF (dual pixel, whatever) to support focusing at that speed via dedicated separate processor (DIGIC 6/6+).
30fps only works in mirror-up mode which means only works in EVF mode.
In mirror-down mode, works conventionally at 15+fps.
2x the processing power means it supports 4k/60.

 

[Busted Knuckles]

The product positioning is getting compressed. This may be more of what the other electronic products have gone through, addressing smaller market segments individually but larger in total product line approach.

Look at the positioning of the 7dII down to the now quite capable T5 series.

Then look at the FF line up. Some what similar as the compression.

So what feature set is oh so important that crosses the new product upgrade threshold.

I would think something very low light has to show up well under $4k otherwise a 1DX works fine for me - if or when I really want to upgrade.

 

[candc]

5D IV possibility:

1Dx mirror assembly.
Fast processing (DIGIC 7, whatever) to support 4k/30 from a high resolution (i.e. 24+MP) sensor.
10-12fps.

1DX Mark II possibility:

Electronic global shutter.
Same fast processor * 2 supports 30fps at full res (20+MP).
On-sensor PDAF (dual pixel, whatever) to support focusing at that speed via dedicated separate processor (DIGIC 6/6+).
30fps only works in mirror-up mode which means only works in EVF mode.
In mirror-down mode, works conventionally at 15+fps.
2x the processing power means it supports 4k/60.

That's just the thing, in order to get that 30fps rate you have to go mirrorless. I don't think the parts on a dslr can flap that fast. So if you are going to build a camera that does that then why make it a hybrid? Sony is rumored to be working on a pro dslr sized mirroreless camera that shoots 36mpx stills at 30fps and does 8k video. They are saying its going to be ready for the 2016 Olympics. A similar canon body would be a wet blanket for Sony. I am sure the canon developers are aware of this and are working on it. Better sooner than later.

 

[Policar]

Impressive what a large percentage of people here are both printing larger than A3 and releasing video theatrically.

Specs seem great for my needs, and those of 99.999% of the world. If you need better, go medium format or Alexa. Too expensive? Rent.

 

[Bennymiata]

A half-priced and smaller and lighter 1DC?
Sounds good to me!

 

[RobD]

Makes total sense. 4k video on an 18mp sensor is exactly what the 1DC does, it shoots 4k with an APS-H crop. Canon loves to reuse previous tech, so mass producing an updated 1DC in a smaller body is definitely Canon's MO. I would much prefer this to the awkward ergonomics and lens adapters of the Sony A7S, and I'm pretty sure more other wedding photo/video shooters are equally interested.

Wish they would take mirrorless seriously though. I'd love a built-in EVF for video.

 

[streestandtheatres]

But if you only have 18MP to start with, you can't afford to crop your image because you have so few pixels to work with. Lets say you want to crop to 1.6x, that leaves you with a 7MP image... that isn't even enough to display on a 4k monitor, let alone print in large sizes... So it seems you would be better off with more MP and slightly higher per pixel noise, since you would still have a useable image when you were done.

I think 30-50 MP is the sweet spot for current sensor tech. It lets you get great high ISO noise and still have plenty of room to crop your pictures. The A7r and the D810, both have great high iso performance and both have >30MP's. I would rather they keep the pixels from 30-50 and just keep improving the ISO performance and FPS and AF.

Is funny seeing text that suggests 18 million pixels is not very many. Another advantage is the effects it has on computer processing. The 50MP files in Tif format will be quite large and doing manipulations in Photoshop etc will be affected.

I guess it depends on how you're looking at the images. I found moving to a retina iMac+SSD both terrific (because it's pretty quick, and I don't have to wait long for Photoshop) and hard on the photos I take. I don't have to crop the 7dii images much before the loss of quality is obvious. I still need to able to crop, to fix composition when a bird is flying past at speed, etc, and over the last few months having a 5k screen is really making me work harder in the field to get the composition exactly right, because there isn't much room to move in post. But then I'm looking at the images on screen, not printed etc...

 

[andrewflo]

As stated, these specs have to be taken with a grain of salt. But definitely some exciting stuff to see Canon trying out.

 

[lucuias]

I seen so many complaints this isn't d810 equavalent. Isn't canon answer with 5ds series .this 5dx is really amazing spec to came true.high iso performance and dynamic range is something a wedding photographer wishing for.18mp is good enough .I don't need 30mp.

 

[dolina]

I will not talk about the image sensor, ISO range, AF system, fps and video resolution as they may be just for a test mule.

What I will talk about is the use of CFast.

I think the 5D Mark III replacement would be too "low-end" a camera to use this standard. I would really expect this to be used first on any of the Cinema EOS bodies or even a 1-Series body before trickling down to the 5-Series body.

Then again, I may be wrong.

Dual UDMA 7 CF cards with a minimum write/read of 1000x would be more my thing assuming built-in WiFi is present. But then again I am being selfish a I only want to deal with one memory card standard for EOS bodies.

If you are to visit BHPhoto.com today there are only 3 brands of CFast cards namely Lexar, Sandisk and Atmos.

Lexar sells 4 different capacities, Atmos 2 different capacities and SanDisk only one.

Cheapest card starts at $159 for a 64GB CFast card from Atomos with a read speed of 200MB/s and write speed of 80MB/s.

Highest end card sells for $1,067.99 for a 256GB CFast from Lexar with a read speed of 510MB/s with no write speed indicated. It has yet to be released.

Pricing will change from today until the day the 5D Mark III replacement are bought by end-users but I do not think it will change by much.

In 2012 Canon and Phase One gave public support to this memory card standard.

AFAIK none of them have produced a product using this standard.

In 2014 ARRI, Canon, Hasselblad, PhaseOne and Leica, and video technology pioneers, Atomos and Blackmagic Design gave public support to this memory card standard.

AFAIK ARRI and Atomos & Blackmagic Design sell products supporting the standard.

 

[PureClassA]

JRista hit on something that occurred to me earlier as well. Canon DOES have a patent filed for a multi-layer foven style sensor. Could be that. Or it could just be the same 1DX sensor that they are using to test something else in a fiction body we will never see. 8 pages speculating on a rig that will likely never see the light of day.

If they really wanted an A7s competitor (and I think they should) then make a real 4k machine, for video only (almost no one is buying the A7s for stills...that puppy was built for video) with 9MP and obscene low-light performance.

 

[mb66energy]

I don't want to buy two different bodies with different capabilities where I have to swap the lenses to use each bodys special features. I am very impressed by the 5Ds's but what body to choose? Prices are o.k. but I would easily pay 4000 €/$ if they had made a switchable low pass filter.

You okay with that switchable filter requiring you to partially disassemble the body?

https://support.red.com/entries/100226366-DSMC-Interchangeable-OLPF-System-FAQs#q10

"You will need to use a T6 Torx driver to install and remove a DSMC Interchangeable OLPF and an LED flashlight (or similar) to ensure no debris or contaminants are visible in the optical cavity before inserting an interchangeable OLPF.

NOTE: It is not required, but RED highly recommends performing an OLPF swap in a cleanroom environment."

I wrote switchable and it meant literally switchable by menu or a hw switch.

I know...and that isn't really possible the same way switching lenses isn't a menu switch. Yeah, others have tried vibrating the sensor for AA filtering, but that approach hasn't yet proven to be both effective and without side effects.

I am not shure if this is impossible ... thinking of smart materials whose opical properties can be cmhanged by applying a voltage (DC or AC). Perhaps it's a technical problem with 50 MPix, but feasible with 12 MPix.

 

[9VIII]

I still wish they had just stuck the 5Ds sensor in the 1Dx body, I want the resolution along with the huge battery and integrated grip (more stable on a tripod).
But I also want wi-fi and a touchscreen.
Sigh, now that they have a 24MP sensor, chances are the SL2 is actually going to be the best body for me (whenever they get around to it).

 

[PureClassA]

I still wish they had just stuck the 5Ds sensor in the 1Dx body, I want the resolution along with the huge battery and integrated grip (more stable on a tripod).
But I also want wi-fi and a touchscreen.
Sigh, now that they have a 24MP sensor, chances are the SL2 is actually going to be the best body for me (whenever they get around to it).

The 50MP sensor?? I wont say it's impossible, but it's pretty far down the pecking order of probability. That was a sensor they obviously tuned for low ISO, not the end all be all action sensor.

Give me a 1DX2 with a mid 20 sensor, 14fps, an absolute criminally insane number of AF points that can focus at f2, and make 12800 ISO look like 3200. There's your unicorn list.

 

[Antono Refa]

And why is a new card format an issue? I use the same cards in the same cameras, every day. Shoot, take card out to edit, put card back in, shoot again. If you're spending £2-£3k on a camera, another £100 odd for a superior format card to go with it seems perfectly reasonable.

They're crazy expensive right now.

A Lexar 64GB Cfast 2.0 card is $352.43.
A Lexar 64GB UDMA 7 CF card is $72.95.
A Lexar 64GB UHS-II SD card is $54.18.

Sorry, that doesn't seem "perfectly reasonable" to me.

For new tech? Every development starts off more expensive than the technology it supersedes. That's not a good reason to stand still.

"It's new" is not a good reason to adopt.

I'd rather see dual SD cards because

- SD cards are smaller than CF/CFast cards.

- CFast pins are on two plastic boards, which is an improvement over pins, but my guess still more problem prone that SD.

- SD cards are fast enough for my needs. Some people would like faster, Canon makes the 7D and 1D-X lines for them, and I couldn't care less if Canon releases a 1D-Xmk2 with dual CFast slots.

- CFast is around for a couple of years, but doesn't seem to catch, much like XQD. That's a recipe for cards remaining scarce and expensive. Again, if Canon thinks it's the future, it would be better off adding it where customers are more likely to appreciate it - the 1D-X and 7D lines.

- The cheapest cards are those I already have.

 

[Tugela]

Having higher pixel densities just reduces ISO performance.

No it doesn't.

Yes it does.

Someday someone needs to explain to me why this myth persists after a decade of things going the other way despite similar basic sensor performance (QE).

Because when your small pixel drowns in a sea of noise a large pixel will still be getting a signal. It is simple physics.

 

[Maiaibing]

Specs seem great for my needs, and those of 99.999% of the world.

Thank you for speaking out for all the rest of us. We will follow your brilliant lead!

 

[Machaon]

Not sure why no one else has suggested this, but:

18mp x3 layer sensor?

Now that really rings true.

If you believe the Sigma Quattro hype, a sensor like that would offer equivalent spatial resolution to about 2x 18MP = 36 MP Bayer sensor, which seems to be the ball park the high-end general purpose camera is converging on. However, colour rendition would be better and larger pixel pitch might help with some of the noise / sensitivity / ISO issues inherent in a multilayer design.

Now that would be a kick-arse sensor...

(That, and 4K video, also go some way towards explaining the CFast card.)

 

[vscd]

That's just the thing, in order to get that 30fps rate you have to go mirrorless.

No, that's a marketing-myth from the mirrorless department. You can leave the mirror open and use the same techniques as the mirrorless does. The DPAF is even better for this than the existing solutions. You will loose the good AF-Modul, but you can do anything else as "they" do.

Taking a 4k Video ist nothing more than shooting @50/60 fps... (and a smaller images of course).

 

[Machaon]

1DX Mark II possibility:

Electronic global shutter.
Same fast processor * 2 supports 30fps at full res (20+MP).
On-sensor PDAF (dual pixel, whatever) to support focusing at that speed via dedicated separate processor (DIGIC 6/6+).
30fps only works in mirror-up mode which means only works in EVF mode.
In mirror-down mode, works conventionally at 15+fps.
2x the processing power means it supports 4k/60.

That's just the thing, in order to get that 30fps rate you have to go mirrorless...

Perhaps the 1Dx II will see the definitive pro-standard mirrorless enter the Canon line-up and usher in the end of the SLR, from the top-down?

Their DPAF already goes some way to addressing a major design issue for mirrorless.

They'll have to develop a seriously fast EVF, though, with no human-perceptible lag. There's also the matter of battery life, although that would be another good reason for making the entry via a 1-series body.