Question about handheld shooting with 5Ds R

[1982chris911]

Hello,

I just had a talk about the 5Ds R compared to the 7d MK II regarding the issue of needing IS on all lenses when using the 5DsR and the former not being a good camera for hand held shots.

As the pixel density and pixel size in both cameras (7d MK II and 5Ds R) is nearly identical (5Ds R having the larger sensor of course), I personally see no difference in shake and motion blur introduced to pictures and in the way I should use lenses on the 5Ds R compared to the 7d MK II.

This means if I get a sharp image in the 7d MKII with a non IS lens (e.g. 135mm f2L) using an exposure time of e.g. 1/200 sec. this same image should just be as sharp with the 5DsR. Or to say it differently my hand and the lens do NOT know if there is an APS-C or FF sensor behind the lens. Therefore the whole discussion if I need shorter exposure times with the 5Ds R to get sharp hand held pictures is completely pointless as the later is basically just a 7d MK II with a bigger sensor.

Is this assumption correct or do I have some fault in my thoughts???

Kind Regards CK

 

[AcutancePhotography]

Unfortunately, questions about handhold-ability depend on the person doing the holding.

You can take two people using the same model of camera/lens with the same settings and have one sharp handheld and the other blurry. Why? Because individuals differ in their ability to handhold. (Insert pun about the stability of photographers... ;D )

I know from personal experience that I can't handhold anywhere near as well as other photographers. I have to shoot with shutter speeds of 1/2f as my slowest and usually try to shoot at 1/5f as I am a shaky guy.

Other photographers I have seen can handhold rock steady at much slower shutter speeds.

So the answer to your question is really about you as an individual. You will have to test your individual ability with various lens combinations to find your individual steady shutter speed (S-cubed! I should trademark that!!)

 

[ajfotofilmagem]

Let's imagine Canon 5DSR and 7D Mark II, side by side, using the same 100mm lens, and enough distance to get the same framework in the camera viewfinder.

The full frame camera asks minimum speed 1/100 second to shoot hand held, and the APS-C camera asks minimum speed of 1/160 second.

If the end result of two photos will be a paper print size 20 x 30 cm, blur of camera shake must be equal in the two photos.

But as you bought a 50 megapixel camera, you want to see if it was worth paying a lot more for it, and makes two impressions on paper size 1 x 1,5 meter, and will confirm that 50 megapixel provide more sharpness that 20 megapixel ... :
And the camera shake will be more visible in 5DSR. WTF! :-\

The lower resolution of the 7D Mark II will hide the blur of camera shake, and the 50 megapixel of 5DSR will become the most visible blur.

Tip: Use faster shutter speeds in 5DSR, to take advantage of greater theoretical sharpness .

 

[1982chris911]

Let's imagine Canon 5DSR and 7D Mark II, side by side, using the same 100mm lens, and enough distance to get the same framework in the camera viewfinder.

The full frame camera asks minimum speed 1/100 second to shoot hand held, and the APS-C camera asks minimum speed of 1/160 second.

If the end result of two photos will be a paper print size 20 x 30 cm, blur of camera shake must be equal in the two photos.

But as you bought a 50 megapixel camera, you want to see if it was worth paying a lot more for it, and makes two impressions on paper size 1 x 1,5 meter, and will confirm that 50 megapixel provide more sharpness that 20 megapixel ... :
And the camera shake will be more visible in 5DSR. WTF! :-\

The lower resolution of the 7D Mark II will hide the blur of camera shake, and the 50 megapixel of 5DSR will become the most visible blur.

Tip: Use faster shutter speeds in 5DSR, to take advantage of greater theoretical sharpness .

Well I am not talking about the same frame, just about using the same lens. What you say is basically the same as using the APS-C sensor as magnifying tool. If I use the same lens for a wider crop and narrower crop of a scene (FF vs APS-C) so that on the 100% pixel level the mid frame both are identical it should in theory not affect make a difference. that a longer lens or narrower crop needs a shorter exposure time is of course clear...

 

[ajfotofilmagem]

Let's imagine Canon 5DSR and 7D Mark II, side by side, using the same 100mm lens, and enough distance to get the same framework in the camera viewfinder.

The full frame camera asks minimum speed 1/100 second to shoot hand held, and the APS-C camera asks minimum speed of 1/160 second.

If the end result of two photos will be a paper print size 20 x 30 cm, blur of camera shake must be equal in the two photos.

But as you bought a 50 megapixel camera, you want to see if it was worth paying a lot more for it, and makes two impressions on paper size 1 x 1,5 meter, and will confirm that 50 megapixel provide more sharpness that 20 megapixel ... :
And the camera shake will be more visible in 5DSR. WTF! :-\

The lower resolution of the 7D Mark II will hide the blur of camera shake, and the 50 megapixel of 5DSR will become the most visible blur.

Tip: Use faster shutter speeds in 5DSR, to take advantage of greater theoretical sharpness .

Well I am not talking about the same frame, just about using the same lens. What you say is basically the same as using the APS-C sensor as magnifying tool. If I use the same lens for a wider crop and narrower crop of a scene (FF vs APS-C) so that on the 100% pixel level the mid frame both are identical it should in theory not affect make a difference. that a longer lens or narrower crop needs a shorter exposure time is of course clear...

I said a "framework identical" in both cameras, because this makes it fair to compare sharpness.

If the framework is different, it will be difficult to judge whether sharpening is being stolen by "low" megapixel, or by camera shake.

I mean the old rule (minimum shutter speed =1x focal lenght) does not apply fully when using a 50 megapixel camera and printing paper 1.5 meters. I suggest using shutter speed =2x focal lenght to truly take advantage of greater theoretical sharpness of the 50 megapixel.

 

[NancyP]

I think that people who aren't intending to make huge prints and who don't tend to work from a tripod ought to skip the highest-resolution cameras. Yes, they can downsample and otherwise deal with directional blur, but just think - those huge files - a PITA. 20 MP is darn good for a lot of situations. I can imagine that I might be a user of a highest-resolution camera on some days with some subjects, when I plan to work on tripod 90% of the time that day, but that the ordinary 20 MP camera would be the mainstay for hand-held shooting.

 

[AcutancePhotography]

I think that the sweet spot for most types of photography is about 25MP. You can to a lot with 25MP and it may be a good balance between resolution and data size which affects workflow concerns.

But from a marketing standpoint, a larger number is always an easier sell ;D

 

[ajfotofilmagem]

I think that the sweet spot for most types of photography is about 25MP. You can to a lot with 25MP and it may be a good balance between resolution and data size which affects workflow concerns.

But from a marketing standpoint, a larger number is always an easier sell ;D

Yes, I agree that about 25 megapixel is enough for 99% of shots that I do.

For the other 1% of my photos where I need more than 25 megapixel, I would use a tripod to maximize sharpness.

 

[Zeidora]

OP's analysis is basically sound. Pixel size of 7d2 and 5ds/r are the same, so blur issues are the same. MP count (or file size, aka "resolution") is irrelevant.

The only caveat is with angle of coverage by same focal length lens on APS vs FF. Because blur is caused to angular movement, this 1.6x difference is important. Canon suggests 1/2f for longest handheld time for the 5ds/r because of the small pixels on FF. By the same angular movement argument, the slowest speed on a 7d2 should be 1/1.6f for APS adjustment multiplied by 1/2f for small pixels: 1/(1.6 x 2)f = 1/3.2f.

For same equivalent focal length lenses, say a 160 mm on a 5ds/r and a 100 mm on a 7d2, the same longest shutter speed applies. Then you only need the 1/(2 FF equivalent focal length) to compensate for small pixels. Notice how the math works out to come to the same 1/320 s speed. Amazing!

As others have pointed out, there is a lot of individual variability with respect to holding the camera steady. Additionally, the 7d2 is not meant for pixel peeping perfectionists, but the 5ds/r is. Expect much more critical examination of 5ds/r images than 7d2. Most people still do not understand the corollaries between file size, physical sensor size, and pixel size. Because file size on a 7d2 is more or less the same as on a 5d, most people think that everything else is the same as well. However, the 7d2 is much more similar to the 5ds/r with respect to optics because of similar pixel dimensions.

As always, that is the slowest speed for handheld, you can always go faster, and under many circumstances one should, or use a tripod even on a 7d2.

 

[mistaspeedy]

OP's analysis is basically sound. Pixel size of 7d2 and 5ds/r are the same, so blur issues are the same. MP count (or file size, aka "resolution") is irrelevant.

+1

 

[Terry Rogers]

Another point to consider. I believe pixel peeping at 1:1 on a 50mp camera is a whole different world than on a 20ish mp camera (both ff). Scale the 50mp to 20mp and any blur from hand holding that would show up gets averaged out. Scale the two images to equivalent mp with same shutter etc, and they should have equal perceptual MP. I think, if you want to capture as many MP of sharpness as possible you would need higher shutter speeds than 1/fl. It's a good rule of thumb for regular print size images, but not good enough for high MP, monster sized prints.

 

[lichtmalen]

Hi,

I got my 5Ds yesterday and all I can say is that the preset values the camera offers to calculate the exposure time in AV do not work for me. I had my Sigma 50 Art on it and it set something between 1/50s and 1/80s which I wasn't able to handhold safely for a, say, 99% success rate. It was slightly shaky.

Luckily you can alter these calculations and make it shorter or longer depending on your needs, in 3 steps in either direction. It's located unter the automatic iso settings. I set mine to one step shorter exposure time and then I get something around 1/125s, which I find quite okay to handhold. You can go a step shorter and it will offer around 1/160s which is definitely handholdable.

 

[AlanF]

I think that people who aren't intending to make huge prints and who don't tend to work from a tripod ought to skip the highest-resolution cameras. Yes, they can downsample and otherwise deal with directional blur, but just think - those huge files - a PITA. 20 MP is darn good for a lot of situations. I can imagine that I might be a user of a highest-resolution camera on some days with some subjects, when I plan to work on tripod 90% of the time that day, but that the ordinary 20 MP camera would be the mainstay for hand-held shooting.

You use a 400mm f/5.6 without IS. It's a different ball game when you have 4 stops of IS.

 

[jaayres20]

I have the 5DSr and can comfortably shoot at 200mm @ 1/100 with IS and details are sharp. That is standing still with good technique.

 

[Halfrack]

Handheld with 24-70 II on 5DsR - technique is critical, and tripod use will go up with these higher mp cameras.

Or take a closer look - http://t.co/cNAF17pYen (gigapan of the first full image)

 

[Mt Spokane Photography]

Those who understand the issues will likely get good images handholding the camera. It won't be worse than a 5D MK III, and most likely be better. However, when trying to eke out all the resolution that the sensor can produce, a tripod is going to be necessary. Few except careful and accomplished photographers will get everything possible from the 7D MK II or the 5Ds R.

 

[PureClassA]

Will be testing handheld today!!!!

 

[AlanF]

Those who understand the issues will likely get good images handholding the camera. It won't be worse than a 5D MK III, and most likely be better. However, when trying to eke out all the resolution that the sensor can produce, a tripod is going to be necessary. Few except careful and accomplished photographers will get everything possible from the 7D MK II or the 5Ds R.

"Just Say No

Don't use a tripod if you can help it. Having to carry one is a pain and thus cripples creativity."

http://www.kenrockwell.com/tech/tripods.htm

We haven't said much about our Ken recently.

 

[PureClassA]

ISO 6400 on this R looks really pretty damn good!!! Love the sound of the new shutter!

 

[benperrin]

I have the 5DSr and can comfortably shoot at 200mm @ 1/100 with IS and details are sharp. That is standing still with good technique.

Hey Joshua, just wanted to say that you produce some amazing images. Great photography!