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At first glance, based on the specs, one would have to agree, but the only way to truly tell the difference is side by side comparison of performance.
Red has always had trouble reproducing colors accurately. Just compare blu-ray copies of "Fight Club" to "the Social Network" (both by badass director David Fincher).
Fight Club (shot on film) looks sooooo much better than the social network (shot on red epic) it's not even funny.
I'd rather have good color at 2k than so-so color at 4k. If canon can do this, then maybe it's worth the extra coin.
Red has always had trouble reproducing colors accurately. Just compare blu-ray copies of "Fight Club" to "the Social Network" (both by badass director David Fincher).
Fight Club (shot on film) looks sooooo much better than the social network (shot on red epic) it's not even funny.
I'd rather have good color at 2k than so-so color at 4k. If canon can do this, then maybe it's worth the extra coin.
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Yes, the red is a huge pain in the ass... It's possible to get good results out of it, but the colors do look pretty muted (even when graded very well) and the camera is buggy and requires constant software and firmware updates.
It's great if you love being on the bleeding edge... If you just want to shoot good video and stills fast, it's, imo, a pain. And transcode times at 4k are brutal, for 5k, even more so.
It's great if you love being on the bleeding edge... If you just want to shoot good video and stills fast, it's, imo, a pain. And transcode times at 4k are brutal, for 5k, even more so.
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RED's folks say their servers got hacked (I didn't think of trying to visit the website) so Jannard had to come out and demo, as the piece said. Conspiracy theory time!
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FredBGG
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Edwin Herdman said:
That is such bullshit.
First of all if you are having a demo in front of an audience, even if you are showing them
a presentation hosted on your website you use a local copy right off a laptop or desktop computer.
Also if you are presenting a camera that is 2k or 4k you don't show internet footage.
The truth is that Red did not know what was coming from Canon so they had to improvise.
Red unfortunately has a reputation of unstable cameras that crash. On top of that it is not very
reassuring that the scarlet X is being built around reject processors from production of the Epic.
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FredBGG said:
Maybe they do, and maybe that's why Peter Jackson needs soooo many for the Hobbit
Somewhere along the lines however, the positives for the Epic must be outweighing the negatives by a long chalk for him to be using them on a major production....
Does a small company like Red fear the 800lb Gorilla, Canon? Of course they do. And has Canon just released the spec of a camera (1Dx) with a few sample shots and lots of "well crafted" prints of capabilities but won't ship anything till Mar/Apr/May 2012? Yep, sure has... Might that be because Canon worried about Nikon and Sony??? Yup
So the difference between Red and Canon is? ???
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Stu_bert said:
If canon charges you $20K for a Camera, you're actors won't have to wear special makeup(see post about the hobbit above) to account for sketchy color.
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HurtinMinorKey said:
I think the point was more about companies misleading the public and other companies with their announcements, but yes I wrote the reference about The Hobbit...
Point still remains that Mr Jackson considers even this to be outweighed by the benefits of the Epic....
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You'd think so. Even Microsoft has had to learn this lesson the hard way (see: BSOD in a Windows demo). On the other hand, "faked" demo stuff can be bad (see Adobe motion blur elimination "precomputed blur" fiasco).FredBGG said:
I think the big problem for RED was that their website was supposed to be updating for a web audience, and with the servers down that couldn't happen, obviously.
Well, even Mr. Jackson has to deal with price and the currently available systems. He might change his mind with a C300 demo - or not. I definitely do not have it out for RED - I would like to see them persist in the marketplace and even go on to do bigger and better things. That said, it's starting to look like economies of scale are their nemesis and Canon might squash it with theirs.Stu_bert said:
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n8mills said:
I'd be interested in seeing videos from the 10K Red body with your Canon lens. From what I can tell, it requires a few thousand dollars more of additional items before you can use it.
Red sells pieces a la carte, not a complete camera.
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price comparison taking accessories into account:
http://nofilmschool.com/2011/11/ready-shoot-prices-canon-eos-c300-red/
as for image quality of RED Scarlet footage, you can expect it to be exactly the same as with the EPIC: it is basically the same camera, with a slower ASIC (the digic processor on Canon cameras); so it has less processing power and therefore can only offer slower frame rates, less HDRx options, etc, but at 4K 24p it will be basically the same image (which, when you think of it, is awesome: 90% of what's shot on these cinema cameras is 24p, and for that what they've done is take the price of the brain down from $28K to $10K)
http://nofilmschool.com/2011/11/ready-shoot-prices-canon-eos-c300-red/
as for image quality of RED Scarlet footage, you can expect it to be exactly the same as with the EPIC: it is basically the same camera, with a slower ASIC (the digic processor on Canon cameras); so it has less processing power and therefore can only offer slower frame rates, less HDRx options, etc, but at 4K 24p it will be basically the same image (which, when you think of it, is awesome: 90% of what's shot on these cinema cameras is 24p, and for that what they've done is take the price of the brain down from $28K to $10K)
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n8mills
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though at half the price...... - is the colour the only thing? it shoots in raw anyways - gives a lot of room to move in post. if one was going to use this for just still work, is there anything cheaper that produces 5k stills?
http://www.roundshot.ch/xml_1/internet/de/application/d438/d925/f934.cfm
http://www.roundshot.ch/xml_1/internet/de/application/d438/d925/f934.cfm
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18 Mpix is more than 5K
these RED cameras have a 5120 (h) x 2700 (v) Bayer sensor, and therefore about 14 Mpix
these RED cameras have a 5120 (h) x 2700 (v) Bayer sensor, and therefore about 14 Mpix
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Interesting Blog from Vincent Laforet who uses most of the cinema cameras and shares his experiences using them. He seems to feel that the Red Scarlet will garner a lot of sales due to its low starting price. However, those $1800 SSD cards it requires will eatup money fast.
Its the sensor quality and the images coming off it that cinematoghraphers drool over, and the Arri Alexia is still best, but at multiple times the price for 2K and requires a crew to operate.
Its the sensor quality and the images coming off it that cinematoghraphers drool over, and the Arri Alexia is still best, but at multiple times the price for 2K and requires a crew to operate.
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steveyager
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Stu_bert said:
There is so much misinformation on this site, it's ridiculous. I don't want to correct anyone though because then you'll all go buy Scarlets and oversaturate my market share. But. . .I can't help to correct someone when they're wrong.
Regarding the makeup in LOTR: the extra red makeup has nothing to do with the camera color science... the mirrors in the 3D rig desaturate magenta from one eye ( tints green ) so instead of boosting back saturation in just one eye in post, they prefer to lift both eyes in saturation then remove it as necessary. The exact same thing would happen to any camera through the 3D rig beamsplitter. one eye goes green , one eye goes magenta. Many ways to compensate for that, this is just one.
Regarding the "reject" processors from Epics being used in Scarlets: each and every camera gets a high quality sensor. Just because you buy a Scarlet doesn't mean your sensor is any less worthy than if you bought an Epic. What is different on the Scarlet is the processing speed of the ASICs. That limits functionality (high fps, high redcode), not sensor image quality. All else being equal, you will get the exact same quality images from Scarlet; it just can't make as many of them each second. Hence the same resolutions, but lower frame rates. Slower processor doesn't mean degraded image.
The internet is a vast and wonderful place to do research, so. . .do it.
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steveyager said:
So instead of doing it in post, they alter the actors makeup and set design because that's much easier
... that cannot be the only reason. Other directors have brought up issues with the color before, it's just funny as hell that Jackson outed Red in that manner. If he wanted to blame it on the 3d rig, he would have. I don't believe that RED would use "reject processors". But this doesn't change the fact that RED hasn't yet mastered things in 2k yet, let alone 4k, because of color issues (see my earlier comment comparing "Fight Club" to the "The Social Network").
RED makes some good cameras (I still might buy one), but people need to stop judging the C300 based on just resolution and fps.
At the end of the day, I'm surprised people are giving RED so much credit for Scarlet. They went with the simplest solution possible: use the same sensor and nerf the processor. That should have taken 2 days not 2 years.
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