Samsung NX1 - FF level quality in an APS-C?? Imaging Resource samples...

IMO, the presence of horizontal banding and the lack of vertical banding suggests that they've started scanning the sensor in the opposite direction, i.e. row major versus column major order or vice versa, rather than an improvement in the sensor or preamplifier technology.
 
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dgatwood said:
IMO, the presence of horizontal banding and the lack of vertical banding suggests that they've started scanning the sensor in the opposite direction, i.e. row major versus column major order or vice versa, rather than an improvement in the sensor or preamplifier technology.


Horizontal banding has been present in Canon cameras for years. It's present in my 5D III, just to a slightly lesser degree than in the 7D II. The big difference is that the 5D III has the sharp vertical banding as well...the 7D II lacks that pretty much entirely. I think that just revealed an existing horizontal banding problem (something I've seen before with both the 5D III and original 7D in my astro images). The horizontal banding does seem more pronounced, but it is not a row-wise banding like the column-wise vertical banding was...they are much fatter, around 10 rows and softer. I don't think it's a change in readout orientation...it seems logical that would remain row activate, column readout.


I guess the softer horizontal banding is less likely to be a problem for most photography...it goes in the direction our eyes naturally scan, left to right...so were now scanning with the grain. It is also fairly faint, so it probably wouldn't show up unless you were shooting in low light at a low ISO and were lifting the shadows a lot.
 
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jrista said:
raptor3x said:
jrista said:
Personally, the large blotchy color left behind after your regular color noise reduction is what bugs me the most. There is very little that can clean that up nicely. If Adobe could fix their RAW engine to NOT produce that in the first place, then one of my biggest complaints about Canon RAW images would be gone. They still wouldn't have the dynamic range, but, at least the data would be cleaner. I don't really want to spend the couple hundred bucks on C1 Pro, as it's workflow doesn't seem as nice to me as Lightrooms, and it has a limited range of DSLR compatibility...but I may jut do that for the IQ.

I know exactly what you mean, this was the issue i had with the A7 at high ISO. I'm not sure I saw anything like that in the 7D2 samples I played with but I'd need to check again. Do you see this on the 5D3 as well or just 7D2 samples?


I see it in every Canon file once I start lifting the shadows enough. It usually doesn't take much, a stop and a half. It's pretty bad with the 5D III, it seems milder with the 7D II. I think Canon may have moved to their newer fabs for the 7D II sensor. If Roger Clark is right about the dark current, and if the Q.E. really is 59%, then this is the first sensor from Canon in a long while that is starting to rival Exmor as far as dark current levels go. If Roger is right, it may even be a little better in terms of dark current than an Exmor.


If the color blotch problem is a consequence of the RAW engine, then Canon has certainly made some strides. They eliminated vertical banding and gained a little bit of horizontal banding (but it is soft, so, not nearly as intrusive as what the 5D III has), lowered dark current, and increased Q.E. Read noise is introduced by the readout pipeline, probably primarily by the ADC units Canon uses. So, that is probably something they could fix (basically, anything that reduces ADC frequency should help.)


I am pretty amazed at how clean the NX1 files are though. Very clean, very neutral random noise, much lower than Canon's. I am hoping Chipworks tears apart both sensors and gives us a detailed look at the designs. I'd love to see what's changed at a low level in Canon's sensor, and what Samsung has done with theirs.

Ah, ok, I thought you meant you were seeing blotchy colors just when using high ISO, I've definitely seen the blotchy colors in the 5D3 files when doing 5+ stop pushes with dual ISO. As for the horizontal banding in the 7D2, do you have any examples? I have yet to see any banding at all in the 7D2. Here is a comparison of the 7D2 and A7R both pushed 5 at ISO 100 from the DPReview low light sample gallery. I don't see any more banding in the 7D2 than the A7R, which is to say none.

 
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7D II (horizontal, red cast):
8aireFK.jpg



5D III (horizontal and vertical, red cast):
QwgnBbU.jpg



NX1 (none, neutral):

wESOH5b.jpg
 
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I don't know if someone has already put this up, but TheCameraStoreTV has up Hand-On Field Test for both NX1 & 7DII:

NX1 - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1flm65f2Gy8

7DII - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H2ljRc-glN4

They each have their flaws, but call me biased but I'm feeling the 7DII as being a superior overall product.
 
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jrista said:
7D II (horizontal, red cast):
8aireFK.jpg

That's surprising. The DPReview samples have no sign of banding no matter how hard you push them and yours is definitely the first mention of any kind of banding I've heard about from the 7D2. Even at +7 stops there's nothing but random noise in the DPReview samples, although they don't supply lenscap shots =). Are there RAW files available for those samples? Do you know how much they were pushed?
 
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mkabi said:
I don't know if someone has already put this up, but TheCameraStoreTV has up Hand-On Field Test for both NX1 & 7DII:
NX1 - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1flm65f2Gy8

that one is already posted discussed earlier on in the thread. I find it remarkably stupid made. The guys have no clue whatsoever. They did not bother at all to familiarize themselves at last a little bit with the camera settings. The guy is not able to selct the right AF-setup and terefore does not even manage to track his mate walking rather slowly towards him. To me it is not the camera that fails, but the two testers.

After having watched the video, I have absolutely no idea, how good, bad, capable, incabable the NX-1 is.

I would be really ashamed to put such a video on youtube and call it a "camera test". :P
 
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mkabi said:
I don't know if someone has already put this up, but TheCameraStoreTV has up Hand-On Field Test for both NX1 & 7DII:

NX1 - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1flm65f2Gy8

7DII - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H2ljRc-glN4

They each have their flaws, but call me biased but I'm feeling the 7DII as being a superior overall product.

OK, I'll call you biased ;)

The 7D2 has a small edge on the NX1 in stills, but the NX1 blows it away on video. Overall the NX1 is a better general purpose camera.

The only real competition the NX1 has in its market space is the GH4 (and to a lesser extent the A7s). Canon has no products in that space at all.
 
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AvTvM said:
mkabi said:
I don't know if someone has already put this up, but TheCameraStoreTV has up Hand-On Field Test for both NX1 & 7DII:
NX1 - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1flm65f2Gy8

that one is already posted discussed earlier on in the thread. I find it remarkably stupid made. The guys have no clue whatsoever. They did not bother at all to familiarize themselves at last a little bit with the camera settings. The guy is not able to selct the right AF-setup and terefore does not even manage to track his mate walking rather slowly towards him. To me it is not the camera that fails, but the two testers.

After having watched the video, I have absolutely no idea, how good, bad, capable, incabable the NX-1 is.

I would be really ashamed to put such a video on youtube and call it a "camera test". :P

As far as I can tell from comments on various boards, most people who actually own the NX1 like it a lot. It has a few quirks but overall it appears to be a pretty good product.
 
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jrista said:
Interesting. I hope he does more testing...very curious to see how the Samsung products (not just the body, but the lenses as well) compare overall, at the wide and long, at max aperture and f/8.

I think chances are very good, since Roger seems to be personally interested in the nx1 himself. :)
 
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For what is worth, Andrew Reid just posted a review of the NX1. Seems to like the video side (his specialty) quite a bit.

I am still tickled that anyone made camera w/ the feature set of the NX1 - my 5dIII is a great machine, I know I am only getting a small portion of its true capabilities out of it. Have to admit I was surprised that BSI is just now arriving at this level of sensor - my naivety - assumed it would have been here long ago. Perhaps Canon can do a BSI for the 1dx - oof what a low light machine that would be.

Best to all.

Mike
 
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Busted Knuckles said:
Have to admit I was surprised that BSI is just now arriving at this level of sensor - my naivety - assumed it would have been here long ago.

My presumption was that gapless microlenses were supposed to make BSI unnecessary, but perhaps there's some marginal improvement using both.

Maybe one of our resident EE's can answer this question.
 
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Orangutan said:
Busted Knuckles said:
Have to admit I was surprised that BSI is just now arriving at this level of sensor - my naivety - assumed it would have been here long ago.

My presumption was that gapless microlenses were supposed to make BSI unnecessary, but perhaps there's some marginal improvement using both.

Maybe one of our resident EE's can answer this question.
I think BSI more about increasing the full well capacity rather than just preventing light from seeping between pixels. With the NX1 pixels being so small (3.7 micron) you want to maximise the pixel surface area hence moving the circuitry to the back. The 1D-X by comparison has 6.9 micron pixels, which is close to 4 times a bigger surface area.
 
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StudentOfLight said:
Orangutan said:
Busted Knuckles said:
Have to admit I was surprised that BSI is just now arriving at this level of sensor - my naivety - assumed it would have been here long ago.

My presumption was that gapless microlenses were supposed to make BSI unnecessary, but perhaps there's some marginal improvement using both.

Maybe one of our resident EE's can answer this question.
I think BSI more about increasing the full well capacity rather than just preventing light from seeping between pixels.

Hmmm...I'd like to hear more explanation of this: I had thought that fwc was not strongly dependent on the surface area.
 
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Orangutan said:
StudentOfLight said:
Orangutan said:
Busted Knuckles said:
Have to admit I was surprised that BSI is just now arriving at this level of sensor - my naivety - assumed it would have been here long ago.

My presumption was that gapless microlenses were supposed to make BSI unnecessary, but perhaps there's some marginal improvement using both.

Maybe one of our resident EE's can answer this question.
I think BSI more about increasing the full well capacity rather than just preventing light from seeping between pixels.

Hmmm...I'd like to hear more explanation of this: I had thought that fwc was not strongly dependent on the surface area.


FWC is dependent upon surface area...the surface area of the photodiode. With an FSI design, some of the pixel area is dedicated to wiring and transistors, which thus necessitates that the photodiode (the actual light-sensitive part of the silicon) become smaller. By flipping the die and etching on the back, the photodiodes can become larger, since the wiring is all on the other side. That increases FWC, which means for the same size sensor, with even the same size "pixel pitch", your actually gathering more light.


There are other benefits with BSI. With FSI, the structure of a pixel ends up being relatively deep. There are layers of wiring and transistors built up around the photodiode. The photodiode sits at the bottom of what is basically a physical "well" (Technically, the "photo well" refers to the potential well, the electronic charge capturing capacity of a photodiode, not a physical thing...but there is a physical "well" as well). The depth of that physical well affects the amount of incident light that can actually be captured, or more specifically, the amount of incident light on the pixel that actually reaches the photodiode and frees and electron. Microlenses helped with that, by bending the light at the periphery of the pixel around the wall of wires around the photodiode. Microlenses aren't perfect, though, and really need to be aspheric, to fully direct all light onto the photodiode. As such, even with them in place, you lose some light to heat as they strike the wiring walls, or they reflect off the walls and hit exposed substrate and don't actually reach the photodiode, etc.


Lightpipe designs improved FSI designs, by filling the well with a highly refractive material. This helped bend the light and keep more of it focused on the photodiode. Lightpipe designs also lined the wiring walls with highly reflective material, which combined with the high refractive index material, focused a lot more light onto the photodide with FSI designs. That's more complicated, though, and still wasn't as efficient as simply flipping the wafer and etching the photodiodes on the other side.


With BSI, you can basically flatten the light-sensitive side of the sensor. There is no longer a physical "well"...all you have is a microlens, a color filter, and the photodiode. It's a very short, flat "stack", the photodiodes are larger, basically covering the entire surface area of the sensor. It gives you the highest efficiency thanks to the very high fill factor.


Given what I've seen so far of NX1 data, the BSI design gives it about a stop better sensitivity than any Canon sensor. I don't know if it's as good as an Exmor, but it doesn't seem to have any banding that I could see...the noise is very random.
 
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jrista said:
FWC is dependent upon surface area...the surface area of the photodiode. With an FSI design, some of the pixel area is dedicated to wiring and transistors, which thus necessitates that the photodiode (the actual light-sensitive part of the silicon) become smaller. By flipping the die and etching on the back, the photodiodes can become larger, since the wiring is all on the other side. That increases FWC, which means for the same size sensor, with even the same size "pixel pitch", your actually gathering more light.

Thanks for the explanation. For some reason, I'd thought the surface merely translated photos into electrons, but that the electrons were stored below the surface.
 
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Samsung tech specs say:

Shutter Speed: Auto : 1/8000 sec. - 1/4 sec. / Manual : 1/8000 sec. - 30 sec. /

This puzzles me as I'm not familiar with Samsung gear (put aside mobile phones).

Does "Auto" refer to the Auto-modes (Av, Tv, P), that can only be set to 1/4 sec at max.? Is the NX1 not able to shoot up to e.g. 30 sec in Auto-modes?

Maybe someone has better knowledge and can clarify on this?
 
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