Small Eos 5D IV comparison to Nikon, Sony, Fuji...
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Jack Douglas said:9VIII said:
Maybe that's how we should be approaching Canon, rather than grumbling on CR.
Jack
OK LETS DO THIS!
https://www.change.org/p/canon-inc-the-greatest-producer-of-photographic-tools-ever-convince-canon-to-implement-the-120-megapixel-aps-h-sensor-in-a-reasonably-priced-camera
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9VIII said:Jack Douglas said:9VIII said:
Maybe that's how we should be approaching Canon, rather than grumbling on CR.
Jack
OK LETS DO THIS!
https://www.change.org/p/canon-inc-the-greatest-producer-of-photographic-tools-ever-convince-canon-to-implement-the-120-megapixel-aps-h-sensor-in-a-reasonably-priced-camera
Signed!
I think we have a better chance to win by signing something more reasonable though... Like compile a list of sane features for the upcoming 5DsR2, otherwise it may sound like "Make Canon Great Again"
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Jopa said:9VIII said:Jack Douglas said:9VIII said:
Maybe that's how we should be approaching Canon, rather than grumbling on CR.
Jack
OK LETS DO THIS!
https://www.change.org/p/canon-inc-the-greatest-producer-of-photographic-tools-ever-convince-canon-to-implement-the-120-megapixel-aps-h-sensor-in-a-reasonably-priced-camera
Signed!
I think we have a better chance to win by signing something more reasonable though... Like compile a list of sane features for the upcoming 5DsR2, otherwise it may sound like "Make Canon Great Again"
I totally agree. An ill conceived request in this kind of endeavor is destined to be rejected without a moment's thought. What is likely to happen though is that all of us collectively wouldn't even be able to agree on what's sane (reasonable) and of course that has to apply from the point of view of economics as well. This is quite different than a request to change some firmware in a camera.
Jack
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Jopa said:I think we have a better chance to win by signing something more reasonable though... Like compile a list of sane features for the upcoming 5DsR2, otherwise it may sound like "Make Canon Great Again"
Canon needs a wall? ;D
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What’s unreasonable about asking Canon to give us a sensor that they’ve been demonstrating for the last decade?
Obviously they’re fully capable of producing it, any current sensor manufacturer is, the pixel density isn’t even very high compared to the tiny 20MP sensors out there.
The only thing preventing this from happening is the lack of memory speed, and then they just need the basic proof that there would be a market for it.
Such a camera would probably be limited to 3fps, 4fps would be 480 Megapixels Per Second and Canon hasn’t pushed anything close to that in a camera yet.
I’ve been shooting a 3fps Rebel for the last 5 years and I think it’s fine, I can still get shots of Birds In Flight, the lack of a high speed burst is not a significant limitation. The burst rating that Canon is willing to ship on a camera is mostly just a matter of marketing.
The most outlandish thing is the APS-H sensor, the worst part being it’s not in any modern product, but maybe they still have the mirror box tooling for the first 1D models sitting around.
Again, we know they can make it, it’s just a question of “why”.
It might work better to ask for a 96MP APS-C sensor, smaller is always cheaper, but the premise of APS-H is that it’s the largest sensor they can print in a single pass, it was Canon’s first digital sensor larger than APS-C for a reason.
If you want to push the limits, but not “over” the lmits, that’s what APS-H is for. The idea of a 156MP Full Frame body would actually be outlandish, and we know Canon has already produced this 120MP sensor, they can probably start pumping them out at a moments notice, it’s all a matter of finding a market.
The 6DII actually appears to be almost perfectly set up for APS-H, it’s smaller and it already has the crop Autofocus module, and it has the fully articulated screen that Macro shooters love so much. All it needs is a different viewfinder, or they could even keep the 35mm viewfinder and just use a focusing screen to outline the APS-H frame.
Obviously they’re fully capable of producing it, any current sensor manufacturer is, the pixel density isn’t even very high compared to the tiny 20MP sensors out there.
The only thing preventing this from happening is the lack of memory speed, and then they just need the basic proof that there would be a market for it.
Such a camera would probably be limited to 3fps, 4fps would be 480 Megapixels Per Second and Canon hasn’t pushed anything close to that in a camera yet.
I’ve been shooting a 3fps Rebel for the last 5 years and I think it’s fine, I can still get shots of Birds In Flight, the lack of a high speed burst is not a significant limitation. The burst rating that Canon is willing to ship on a camera is mostly just a matter of marketing.
The most outlandish thing is the APS-H sensor, the worst part being it’s not in any modern product, but maybe they still have the mirror box tooling for the first 1D models sitting around.
Again, we know they can make it, it’s just a question of “why”.
It might work better to ask for a 96MP APS-C sensor, smaller is always cheaper, but the premise of APS-H is that it’s the largest sensor they can print in a single pass, it was Canon’s first digital sensor larger than APS-C for a reason.
If you want to push the limits, but not “over” the lmits, that’s what APS-H is for. The idea of a 156MP Full Frame body would actually be outlandish, and we know Canon has already produced this 120MP sensor, they can probably start pumping them out at a moments notice, it’s all a matter of finding a market.
The 6DII actually appears to be almost perfectly set up for APS-H, it’s smaller and it already has the crop Autofocus module, and it has the fully articulated screen that Macro shooters love so much. All it needs is a different viewfinder, or they could even keep the 35mm viewfinder and just use a focusing screen to outline the APS-H frame.
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Loswr
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9VIII said:
APS-H is dead for good reason. It came about as a production compromise, one that's been obviated now. It's a crop format sensor with no dedicated lenses. An L-series standard zoom starting at 31mm? An 11-24L that effectively starts at 14mm? That's not pushing limits, that's hamstrung before even coming close.
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neuroanatomist said:
APS-H is not dead, it’s just sleeping.
The only reason I don’t have the Sigma Quattro H is that SA mount lenses are so hard to get (if you’re outside the U.S. or Japan).
There is a place in the market between Full Frame and APS-C.
Canon will protect the Full Frame market, you will never see a Full Frame body with a 100+MP sensor for less than $4,000. At least not for another 20 years.
This is not the 5DsMkII, and the 5DsMkII is not this.
The 120MP APS-H sensor makes sense precisely because it’s not competing in that range. Canon will not sell a high density Full Frame sensor without a heafty premium, the premise here is high density at a reasonable cost and Full Frame is automatically out of the question, not necessarily for technical reasons (though 150MP is definitely too much for Canon’s current buffer speeds), but definitely for marketing reasons.
Go make your own petition for a 150MP Full Frame body if you like, that is not this camera.
The idea of a 120MP Full Frame sensor also compromises the pixel density, Pixel Density is actually more important than sensor size here.
Using a 97MP APS-C body is the next best option, heck I might even take a 1” sensor if they cut the price enough (I was very interested in the Nikon 1 series for its density), as long as we’re making a camera that doesn’t fit any traditional role there’s no reason to keep it in a standard sensor format. APS-H is what Canon has already functionally demonstrated, and it is very attractive as an upgrade to APS-C.
APS-H is appealing to the crop shooter and non-threatening to Canon’s Full Frame marketing. Perfect.
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neuroanatomist said:
Reducing sensor size always reduces cost.
Again, the price Canon is willing to sell a given sensor at is more about marketing than fabrication anyway, but APS-H hits both points, it is both cheaper than 35mm and marketed differently.
Pitching an idea that runs counter to current marketing trends really would be futile.
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Loswr
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9VIII said:
Sorry to burst your bubble, but it's not going to happen. I know that as a photographer, you (we) look at the 120 MP APS-H sensor, recall the 1D series, and dream of a future ILC. But really, that format was awkward…problematic on the wide end, and not crop enough on the long end compared to APS-C.
I will say, I was wrong to state that APS-H is dead. Nor is it, as you say, sleeping. It's very much alive. The 120 MP sensor you're discussing was just a step on the path toward the 250 MP APS-H sensor they have now. But neither will find their way into an ILC, because while you're looking backward to an outdated and superceded ILC sensor format, Canon is looking forward to their future expansion and growth...and that's not in ILCs, but as Canon stated this past January, in the wide-field surveillance cameras for which Canon is developing the ultra high MP APS-H format.
[quote author=last week's NYT]Japan's Canon Inc hiked its annual profit forecast for the third time on Tuesday on the back of expanding demand for "business-to-business" products from surveillance cameras to organic light-emitting diode (OLED) screen production equipment.
Canon, which also makes copiers and printers, forecast operating profit to soar by more than half to 350 billion yen ($3 billion) for the year through December as capital expenditure by manufacturers grows.
Coupled with a doubling of operating profit in the third-quarter, the upbeat outlook - which surpassed analysts' estimates - suggests Canon's diversification from a global camera market under attack from increasingly sophisticated smartphones is paying off.[/quote]
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[/quote]neuroanatomist said:
Yes....
Everything happens for a reason, and we (forum fanatics) are not made aware of those reasons..... it could be pure R+D, it could be moving towards a new product line such as surveillance, or it could even be to resurrect a old format.... At least to my way of thinking, the first two are both likely, but any attempt to carve out a new format between FF and 1.6 crop is very unlikely.
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Talys said:Jopa said:I think we have a better chance to win by signing something more reasonable though... Like compile a list of sane features for the upcoming 5DsR2, otherwise it may sound like "Make Canon Great Again"
Canon needs a wall? ;D
Guys, it would really be nice if we could keep politics out of our threads. This has been one of the few forums on the net to get away from all that BS on both sides. Let's just keep it about cameras and gear.
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neuroanatomist said:
Of all the things in the world to start a petition on....
Great idea if you want a camera that:
Has maybe 10 stops of DR.
Shoots at 1 FPS.
Must be used on a tripod.
Does not have the low light advantage of FF.
Does not have the reach advantage of crop.
;D ;D ;D
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What if substantive proof came out that the new Sony product is better in every category compared to Canon. Would that mean suddenly that all my photos would be poor, assuming they are properly exposed/composed? Would people start telling my, I see you're shooting with an inferior product?
As many have said, it's more about competition and envy and the difference the camera would make would easily be compensated by a good photographer's skill. Now, OTOH if an inexpensive Sony lens of say 800mm F5.6 came out, I'd be thinking, boy Sony could really benefit me! Or let's say all Sony lenses were half the price of Canon's.
I think disposing of good cameras and buying new ones for minimal performance gain is not logical unless you're rich and like the toys. When Neuro sad, the 1DX is fine I'll pass on the 1DX2, that was logical.
Jack
As many have said, it's more about competition and envy and the difference the camera would make would easily be compensated by a good photographer's skill. Now, OTOH if an inexpensive Sony lens of say 800mm F5.6 came out, I'd be thinking, boy Sony could really benefit me! Or let's say all Sony lenses were half the price of Canon's.
I think disposing of good cameras and buying new ones for minimal performance gain is not logical unless you're rich and like the toys. When Neuro sad, the 1DX is fine I'll pass on the 1DX2, that was logical.
Jack
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dak723 said:
Actually in this scenario we’re choosing between 120MP APS-H and 97MP APS-C, it’s the same density with the same reach either way.
Of course noise would be worse than Full Frame, that’s the point, Canon needs this to make other more expensive products look better.
As I specifically stated before, memory speed is the primary hardware limitation. The 1DX2 gets a maximum “Megapixels Per Second” of 323MP/s, so if we’re assuming Canon wants to keep under that number then the 120MP APS-H sensor would only shoot 2.6fps, and a 97MP APS-C sensor would give 3.3fps. Given that Nikon is doing 405MP/s on the D850 I doubt the file size is actually a problem beyond how fast it fills the buffer, really they could do 120MP at 4fps and just keep the buffer down to 5-6 shots, which is about as good as my old Rebel, and it’s not a hindrance in most shooting scenarios.
The Tripod is already necessary for many of the applications where 120MP would be beneficial. Complaining about camera shake at this level would be like complaining that a Ferrari doesn’t perform well in the Baja 500.
In some cases a certain amount of camera shake would be useful to help eliminate Moire though. People might look at it as a waste of pixels but no-one maximizes their pixel level detail on all their shots anyway. You don’t run out and say the camera industry should stop using 20MP sensors every time you take a blurry photo.
It would actually be nice to have something that does keep up during that one moment you just happen to hold your camera perfectly still. Chances are most of the detail your lens is delivering is already wasted at the resolution you have right now.
And of course Dynamic Range is evil, it cramps my style, I always crush the last 3-4 stops of shadow detail in post anyway. <- That’s Sarcasm
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The reason you’ll never see an APS-H sensor on a 7D is it would make the 1D obsolete for the vast majority of customers. In a sports body APS-H is too capable, Canon can’t risk it.
As a 4fps detail machine, that’s not threatening to the core market for their flagship body, so APS-H would be fine.
As a 4fps detail machine, that’s not threatening to the core market for their flagship body, so APS-H would be fine.
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