Some Canon Mirrorless Talk [CR2]

[nads]

things will be fine
could just stick the same battery in as in the 5D IV - meaning 12+ Whrs, hopefully; that should yield 500+ shots. Canon has the tech savvy and can buy the cells ... no technical problem here

want to explain how you pulled that out of your ass when the 80D only does 300 shots on liveview with a smaller sensor and the same battery?

671

That is the number of photos I took on a single LP-E17 battery on the M3 on August 17-18 of 2015 at Disneyland.

yes, but that's not how CIPA is calculated Sir.

I get alot out of my M3 as well, butgwe're talking CIPA numbers just to keep it on an equal playing field (well, somewhat..)

I don't give much of a damn about CIPA numbers. If a 1040 mah battery can pull almost 700 shots then the idea of pulling 500 shots out of a 1800 mah battery isn't pulling something out of one's backside. Battery life is not a technical problem that is hurting the format. I'd prefer to keep the battery and body size down. No reason to stick a larger cell in there. 3rd parties routinely stick 20-25% more capacity in the same size case.

 

[rrcphoto]

Keeping it short and sweet, I fail to find a compelling reason for Canon to introduce a mirrorless camera.

Here's why - https://photographylife.com/a-few-thoughts-about-the-camera-market

Can anyone give me a reason that makes sense, given current market conditions?

well from the get go.. perhaps understanding what CIPA records would be a good thing.

a) it's shipments.
b) the price is FOB

also .. consider in your analysis the shipment effects when sony switched over from a 13% ILC / DSLR marketshare to next to nothing on DSLR's and went "all in" on Mirrorless. start your timeline on that with the A7 release.

you'll find some even more interesting data points.

 

[rrcphoto]

things will be fine
could just stick the same battery in as in the 5D IV - meaning 12+ Whrs, hopefully; that should yield 500+ shots. Canon has the tech savvy and can buy the cells ... no technical problem here

want to explain how you pulled that out of your ass when the 80D only does 300 shots on liveview with a smaller sensor and the same battery?

671

That is the number of photos I took on a single LP-E17 battery on the M3 on August 17-18 of 2015 at Disneyland.

yes, but that's not how CIPA is calculated Sir.

I get alot out of my M3 as well, butgwe're talking CIPA numbers just to keep it on an equal playing field (well, somewhat..)

I don't give much of a damn about CIPA numbers. If a 1040 mah battery can pull almost 700 shots then the idea of pulling 500 shots out of a 1800 mah battery isn't pulling something out of one's backside.

battery life in relation to others is, and the only credible way to measure is by CIPA. so 500+ cipa is pulling it out of his ass.

and why do you care.. you weren't the person i was responding to anyways.

 

[Loswr]

Keeping it short and sweet, I fail to find a compelling reason for Canon to introduce a mirrorless camera.

Here's why - https://photographylife.com/a-few-thoughts-about-the-camera-market

Can anyone give me a reason that makes sense, given current market conditions?

We've been hearing about how Canon will introduce competitive mirrorless products for several years...

So, you imply that Canon has not introduced competitive mirrorless products, and reference an article that states, "If Canon and Nikon do not enter the non-SLR (mirror-less) interchangeable camera market with a good complement of APS-C and/or full frame cameras by the end 2017 they will likely miss an important strategic window of opportunity."

I guess that means that Fuji and Panasonic have failed in the mirrorless market, since Canon already outcompetes both in a large demographic for MILC sales.

 

[AvTvM]

@rrcphoto: watch your own ass and what you pull from it. Canon Defense League fanboy.

500+ CIPA shots are definitely for a MILC powered by a standard mirrorslapper battery like Canon LP-E6N instead of those wimpy sh*tty toy batteries Canon cuerrently sticks into their EOS-M, Rebels and Powershot G's.
Even EOS M3 grip could as well fit a grown up LiIon battery.
Things din't have to be BIG to be powerful ... these days.

 

[rrcphoto]

@rrcphoto: watch your own ass and what you pull from it. Canon Defense League fanboy.

right and that's why the 80D with a smaller sensor in liveview is rated for CIPA 300 shots, with that same.. "non-wimpy battery"

Hell - even the 1DX Mark II and it's battery is rated for 240-260 - which obviously means full frame and performance causes a hit there.

So want to explain that one again? especially including the concept that an EVF uses more power than the LCD?

or are you saying that the 80D and 1DX Mark II have wimpy batteries?

here's a news flash .. DPAF is CPU intensive. think about calculating distance from 20 million AF points and then doing AI servo on those.

obviously common sense and logic has no bearing on you, nor reading.

try harder.

 

[Don Haines]

Measuring battery life must be done in a standard way to get meaningful numbers.....

For example, even sticking the the same model of camera, you can get HUGE variation based on how you shoot.

If I shoot in bursts, I get more pictures per battery than if I take one every minute. Every time I turn the camera off, it goes through a dust cycle and uses more power.... Turning the camera on and off after every shot, I will be lucky to get 500 pictures, I bursts I should see 2000.....

What lens is on the camera..... It takes a lot more energy to focus a 600F4 than a shorty forty.... Do you have IS turned on.... Are you tracking a bird for 30 seconds per shot, or is it a quick snap on a stationary target?

Unless you control the variables and compare camera with equivalent lenses used in a similar manner, the numbers are meaningless.

 

[rrcphoto]

Measuring battery life must be done in a standard way to get meaningful numbers.....

For example, even sticking the the same model of camera, you can get HUGE variation based on how you shoot.

If I shoot in bursts, I get more pictures per battery than if I take one every minute. Every time I turn the camera off, it goes through a dust cycle and uses more power.... Turning the camera on ancient off after every shot, I will be lucky to get 500 pictures, I bursts I should see 2000.....

What lens is on the camera..... It takes a lot more energy to focus a 600F4 than a shorty forty.... Do you have IS turned on.... Are you tracking a birch for 30 seconds per shot, or is it a quick snap on a stationary target?

Unless you control the variables and compare camera with equivalent lenses used in a similar manner, the numbers are meaningless.

the only thing I don't like about CIPA is there should be two numbers. one with flash and the other without.

it's impossible to compare cameras that have flash to ones that don't.

 

[nads]

things will be fine
could just stick the same battery in as in the 5D IV - meaning 12+ Whrs, hopefully; that should yield 500+ shots. Canon has the tech savvy and can buy the cells ... no technical problem here

want to explain how you pulled that out of your ass when the 80D only does 300 shots on liveview with a smaller sensor and the same battery?

671

That is the number of photos I took on a single LP-E17 battery on the M3 on August 17-18 of 2015 at Disneyland.

yes, but that's not how CIPA is calculated Sir.

I get alot out of my M3 as well, butgwe're talking CIPA numbers just to keep it on an equal playing field (well, somewhat..)

I don't give much of a damn about CIPA numbers. If a 1040 mah battery can pull almost 700 shots then the idea of pulling 500 shots out of a 1800 mah battery isn't pulling something out of one's backside.

battery life in relation to others is, and the only credible way to measure is by CIPA. so 500+ cipa is pulling it out of his ass.

and why do you care.. you weren't the person i was responding to anyways.

I've yet to meet somebody who chose a camera based on CIPA rating or battery life. Spares are cheap and easy to carry. At any rate, M3 is rated at what, 250 shots CIPA? That would be over 400 shots with an LP-E6 battery. Test without using the built in flash and you'd be up to 500 shots with the 1800 mah battery. Go to a 3rd party 2600 mah battery and get rid of flash requirement and you'd have 650-700 shot life via the precious CIPA standard.

The reality is that people routinely blow the doors off what the CIPA figures state. Its as meaningless as the window sticker for fuel mileage. It is a rough guideline that nobody actually hits on the number.

 

[crashpc]

Rumors say 2017. Is this a joke? :-D

 

[rrcphoto]

I've yet to meet somebody who chose a camera based on CIPA rating or battery life.

so? it was the topic of discussion, try to pay attention.

Spares are cheap and easy to carry. At any rate, M3 is rated at what, 250 shots CIPA? That would be over 400 shots with an LP-E6 battery.

That's nice, but it really isn't relevant, for starters the CIPA measurement for the M3 isn't with EVF, and nor is the M3 a DPAF sensor, and the M3 is slow as #$(O&*. 1 FPS AEB burst rate? lol.

Test without using the built in flash and you'd be up to 500 shots with the 1800 mah battery. Go to a 3rd party 2600 mah battery and get rid of flash requirement and you'd have 650-700 shot life via the precious CIPA standard.

Except they aren't really 2600mAh.

and again, you and the friend you're defending can't grasp this concept. the 80D with a DPAF sensor is rated around the SAME as the CIPA rating for the M3, and that's WITH a larger battery.

Now think about that for a second - and also realize that the GN of the M3 flash is HALF of the 80D.

1) Performance of the M3 is less than the 80D even in liveview - but that's immaterial because a full frame mirrorless that the person was discussion was AS HIGH as the 80D.

2) the 80D uses a far more advanced sensor, that probably has alot more power requirements.

and your friend that you are defending or arguing without even realizing the freaking conversation.. suggests that a full frame DPAF sensor based camera should be able to EASILY get 500+ CIPA.

This .. considering that NO canon camera to date even with LP-E6N batteries gets even close to that. THAT was the point.

So frankly I don't freaking care of you run eco mode, do a dance around your M3 and get 772 shots - it wasn't the freaking point of the conversation.

The point was how did the poster get from 300 CIPA shots in an equivalent mode of canon's latest camera, to a larger DPAF sensor getting 500 shots with the same bloody battery, with even a higher power drain because he also wants an EVF.

Can you grasp that or is some crayons needed?

 

[Loswr]

and again, you and the friend you're defending can't grasp this concept.

I didn't realize that MABS* was contagious...




* mirrorslap-addled brain syndrome

 

[Zv]

What kind of arguments are these?? Don is right, there are too many variables when it comes to battery life. CIPA is just a guide number. It's not the bible of batteries (or is it? ??? ), some people can squeeze out more juice than others depending on shooting style. Just use the CIPA standard to figure out how many batteries you'll likely need and move on. If you have 2 DSLR batteries like the LP-E6 you'll probably need 4 EOS M ones. If you need more shots maybe you should stick to the DSLR as its more efficient. Who shoots over 1000 shots in a day with their EOS M anyway?? Well done if you do, I kinda want to shake your hand!

I miss the good old days when we argued about UV filers and FF vs crop

 

[nads]

I've yet to meet somebody who chose a camera based on CIPA rating or battery life.

so? it was the topic of discussion, try to pay attention.

Spares are cheap and easy to carry. At any rate, M3 is rated at what, 250 shots CIPA? That would be over 400 shots with an LP-E6 battery.

That's nice, but it really isn't relevant, for starters the CIPA measurement for the M3 isn't with EVF, and nor is the M3 a DPAF sensor, and the M3 is slow as #$(O&*. 1 FPS AEB burst rate? lol.

Test without using the built in flash and you'd be up to 500 shots with the 1800 mah battery. Go to a 3rd party 2600 mah battery and get rid of flash requirement and you'd have 650-700 shot life via the precious CIPA standard.

Except they aren't really 2600mAh.

and again, you and the friend you're defending can't grasp this concept. the 80D with a DPAF sensor is rated around the SAME as the CIPA rating for the M3, and that's WITH a larger battery.

Now think about that for a second - and also realize that the GN of the M3 flash is HALF of the 80D.

1) Performance of the M3 is less than the 80D even in liveview - but that's immaterial because a full frame mirrorless that the person was discussion was AS HIGH as the 80D.

2) the 80D uses a far more advanced sensor, that probably has alot more power requirements.

and your friend that you are defending or arguing without even realizing the freaking conversation.. suggests that a full frame DPAF sensor based camera should be able to EASILY get 500+ CIPA.

This .. considering that NO canon camera to date even with LP-E6N batteries gets even close to that. THAT was the point.

So frankly I don't freaking care of you run eco mode, do a dance around your M3 and get 772 shots - it wasn't the freaking point of the conversation.

The point was how did the poster get from 300 CIPA shots in an equivalent mode of canon's latest camera, to a larger DPAF sensor getting 500 shots with the same bloody battery, with even a higher power drain because he also wants an EVF.

Can you grasp that or is some crayons needed?

Try to grasp this concept you pious onager. My "friend" (What, because I didn't disagree with somebody you want to condescending towards makes us friends?) never claimed that such a camera would achieve 500 CIPA. They clearly stated that with a 5D battery the mirrorless body would hopefully achieve 500 shots.

The point was never getting from 300 CIPA to 500 CIPA. That was a twist you added to go on a rant about battery life. Nevermind that CIPA rating is piss poor when it comes to estimating real world life for a user. Nevermind that CIPA constantly compares apples to oranges. Nevermind that CIPA has them use the flash for every other shot. 80D has a more powerful flash going off every other shot, of course its going to burn the battery.

My "Friend" hoped for a 500 shot battery life. He said nothing about 500 CIPA. Turning off the flash he should easily achieve that with his 'proposed' camera (aka one that isn't coming anyway).

You want to have a pissing contest about a bad standard that nobody takes seriously. There is no oversight on testing and everybody's tests miraculously seem to end on a multiple of 50. Good for you.

My point remains... nobody makes a purchase decision based on CIPA rating. You respond by saying "so, it was the topic of discussion". The hell it was. Somebody hoped for 500 shots and you went on a tirade about CIPA ratings. Instead of arguing about achieving a bad standard, just shut up and recognize that most people blow CIPA away just by not using flash.

 

[rrcphoto]

nobody makes a purchase decision based on CIPA rating.

(snipped the rest)

reviews very much mention CIPA battery ratings and it's the only way to have a judge from camera to camera within reason, and your "friend" confirmed in his last post that he most certainly did mean CIPA as I expected him to based upon other conversions we've had over his "ideas" on what canon should be able to "technically" do.

and just because you don't follow it, fine - then why the hell are you even mention it. Not to mention I could give a rats ass what an M3 does because an M3 doesn't have DPAF sensor in it and it's slow as #$(&* - so it's not even relevant to this conversation.

while CIPA could expand their battery test suite to include two numbers with or without flash, it's the only consistent measure we have. the only one.

So really that's the point of the matter; that CIPA shot count is the only way to consistently measure battery life.

try to keep up though .. he posted yesterday and confirmed 500 CIPA - hard to read I know.

and it still doesn't get around the fact that an 80D and 1DX Mark II boast far less than 500 shots CIPA rating and the 1DX II has a MUCH bigger battery AND doesn't have a flash.

and this miracle full frame camera is going to use a LP-E6N battery that the 80D does, AND be quick performing, AND have a 500 shot CIPA battery spec.

one thing that CIPA battery specs gives us an idea - is how much it's costing as far as power to run liveview.

while the 80D is better than the 70D, it's still very low considering the size of the battery.

consider that the 5D Mark III doesn't even have flash NOR a DPAF sensor and it boasts 200 shots CIPA, the 6D 220 shots.

kind of get where this is going?

--

Looking at the power consumption of canon's DSLR's running liveview is a VERY good indication why they haven't implement some features in the EOS-M sized cameras.

people just think it's as easy as shoving an 80D guts into a EOS-M, add an EVF and it's up and running. sure. if you want 100 CIPA rating on the camera.

 

[scyrene]

I've yet to meet somebody who chose a camera based on CIPA rating or battery life. Spares are cheap and easy to carry.

I care about battery life! Good quality (especially genuine Canon) spares are not always cheap, and you have to remember/be disciplined enough to charge them all up regularly. It's obviously easier to have fewer batteries each with higher capacity. It's not a deal breaker, but it matters.

I agree that CIPA figures are not all that useful though (to clarify: it is good to have a standard measure to compare between models and brands, but this measure does not bear much relation to real world performance, in my experience - but then as stated above, there are so many variables it might not be possible).

 

[AvTvM]

Fact 1: Sony A7R II is a mirrorless camera with the followin battery-drenchers built in:
a) 24 MP FF sensor, 5fps continuos
b) built-in hi-rez EVF
c) in-body IS (!)
d) WiFI + NFC
e) good AF-system (superior to Canon 80D in liveviw, DPAF is still not up to snuff)
f) 3" LCD

Fact 2: Sony battery NP-FW50 (same battery since NEX-3 in all Sony MILCs) is rated with 1040 mAh @ 7.4V = 7.7 Wh.

Fact 3: Sony A7 II is rated at 300 CIPA shots - for whatever that's worth

Remark: I don't really trust CIPA either, but in *my real life usage* i do reach CIPA number with any of my past and present digital cameras most of the time, unless I chimp excessively etc.

Conclusion: if Sony A7 II was not equipped with that wimpy stupid 7.7 Wh battery but with a regular mirrorslapper battery that is not much larger and would fit into a grip only slightly chunkier ... meaning
a) Sony NP-FM500H [used in many Sony SLTs like A99] rated at 7.2V * 1650 mAh = 11.9 Wh or similar sized and capacity or even better, a
b) Canon LP-E6N [7.2V * 1865mAh = 13.4 Wh ] or
c) Nikon EN-EL14 [7.0V * 1900 mAh = 13.3 Wh]
so between 54% to 74% more charge than that whimpy 7.7 Wh toy battery ...

... then Sony A7 II should achieve 500+ shots [+66% vs. 300]. Both CIPA and real life. Not in all usage scenarios, of course. But in many or most that are relevant to real-world users.

No amount of badass Canon Defense League behaviour changes this. And yes, to me Sony is as stupid as Canon ... for not sticking a proper battery into their A7 series. Wonder, what battery the rumored Sony A9 will come with.

 

[rrcphoto]

Fact 1: Sony A7R II

snipped right there.

we're talking canon and canon technology. try to pay attention or go join SAR. so that babble isn't fact here.

and you conveniently ignored everything.

including the fact that DPAF sensors are quite different than what sony foists on people.

so when you are ready to come back to reality .. still try to explain how you are going to get a CANON full frame DPAF sensor that right now runs at 260 shots on a 1DX Mark II to hit 500 shots.

 

[Don Haines]

What kind of arguments are these?? Don is right, there are too many variables when it comes to battery life. CIPA is just a guide number. It's not the bible of batteries (or is it? ??? ), some people can squeeze out more juice than others depending on shooting style. Just use the CIPA standard to figure out how many batteries you'll likely need and move on. If you have 2 DSLR batteries like the LP-E6 you'll probably need 4 EOS M ones. If you need more shots maybe you should stick to the DSLR as its more efficient. Who shoots over 1000 shots in a day with their EOS M anyway?? Well done if you do, I kinda want to shake your hand!

I miss the good old days when we argued about UV filers and FF vs crop

The most batteries I have consumed in a day's shooting (stills and video) is 3. That's why there are three spares in my bag. It really does not matter how many shots you get per battery in your particular shooting style with your camera(s) and your choice of lenses. What matters is that you have more batteries than you need.

 

[slclick]

What kind of arguments are these?? Don is right, there are too many variables when it comes to battery life. CIPA is just a guide number. It's not the bible of batteries (or is it? ??? ), some people can squeeze out more juice than others depending on shooting style. Just use the CIPA standard to figure out how many batteries you'll likely need and move on. If you have 2 DSLR batteries like the LP-E6 you'll probably need 4 EOS M ones. If you need more shots maybe you should stick to the DSLR as its more efficient. Who shoots over 1000 shots in a day with their EOS M anyway?? Well done if you do, I kinda want to shake your hand!

I miss the good old days when we argued about UV filers and FF vs crop

The most batteries I have consumed in a day's shooting (stills and video) is 3. That's why there are three spares in my bag. It really does not matter how many shots you get per battery in your particular shooting style with your camera(s) and your choice of lenses. What matters is that you have more batteries than you need.

Warm weather = 1 more battery than I think I need
Cold weather= 2-3 more than I think I need