Some Canon Mirrorless Talk [CR2]

[jebrady03]

I think a premium line (FF) of M bodies based around dslr form factor could be called something like 6M, 5M, follow up versions would be 6M Mark II, etc. So, premium versions the number is in front, consumer versions remain as-is; M3, M4, etc., with the number at the end.
I like the idea. You guys?
Also, I like the idea of two versions of each camera. I realize that would increase production costs but I think it would be nice to have a EF Mount version as well as an EFM Mount version.

 

[ahsanford]

Looking forward to the new M with the 80D sensor, and to new EF-M lenses. Hope the M body stats small, no EVF please. Expect we'll see an M macro and a longer 'fast' prime (50/2?). Just picked up the M55-200.

Not sure we'll see a FF MILC, but maybe so if it's a 6D-M.

Let the record show that Neuro was excited about something.

I feel like The Grinch's small heart just grew three sizes.

- A

 

[sdsr]

Yes, please - ff or aps-c - but not unless a first rate EVF is built in.

 

[ahsanford]

Regarding the original post to this thread, here are my thoughts on this:

1) If the 80D is headed into an EOS-M anytime soon, it is not an entry level EOS-M model at all. The 80D is the very definition of the enthusiast sensor.

2) Put another way, I would be stunned if Canon's EOS-M platform went from 'dare' (EOS-M) to 'triple dog dare' (FF mirrorless) without the 80D sensor arriving as the 'enthusiast model' sometime before the FF 'pro' model does. Anything else would be a slight breach of etiquette. :

3) Same thoughts, third approach: we have yet to see the basic 'niceties' of an enthusiast model in EOS-M: an integral viewfinder, DPAF, perhaps a small top LCD, a sizeable grip, etc. The 80D has all of those things. Just make an 80D into an EF-M mount/footprint (but keep the grip!!) and you have a nearly perfect enthustiast rig. Given how well the 80D sensor is shaping up to be, I'd seriously consider paying $1,000-1,200 for that rig provided that USM/Nano USM native EF-M lenses were offered alongside it.

- A

 

[bereninga]

My guess is that the 6DII will be mirrorless w/ a hybrid viewfinder.

A Canon-esque upgrade to the current 6D would basically be a 5DIII. I think they'll want their current 6D users to jump onto the 5DIV bandwagon.

 

[ichiru]

Lost in the anticipation of the EOS 5D Mark IV announcement in August, is the likelihood of new EOS M camera(s) in the fall for Photokina. We’ve been told that there will definitely be 2 ILC EOS M cameras announced before the end of 2016.</p>
<p>One of the cameras that will be announced is a follow-up to the EOS M3 which was announced in February of 2015 and didn’t make its way to North America until October of 2015. The new camera we’re told will be equipped with the new sensor from the EOS 80D and will see “minor” ergonomic changes.</p>
<p>The second camera, which may actually be announced first will be Canon’s first “prosumer” focused mirrorless camera. Two sources have said that the camera will use a newly designed 24mp full frame image sensor. This camera will be designed to use EF lenses, but how that’s going to be done is presently unknown to us. Details beyond that are quite fuzzy, but we’re pressing for more.</p>
<p>We haven’t heard anything more about a fixed lens full frame camera from Canon, but we hope that’s coming as well.</p>
<p>Expect 3 to 5 new EF-M lenses to be announced before the close of the year. There will be faster prime lenses along with new zooms, but nothing beyond 300mm.</p>
<span id="pty_trigger"></span>

I really hope that this rumor is true... the full frame mirrorless EF mount camera (with new Canon sensor)! I will hold on to my money and keep my Canon gear until the end of the summer but I don't think my allegiance to Canon would survive another let down. Gosh if I didn't love my Canon glass this much I'd be shooting Nikon or Sony by now. Thanks for updates.

 

[Loswr]

Looking forward to the new M with the 80D sensor, and to new EF-M lenses. Hope the M body stats small, no EVF please. Expect we'll see an M macro and a longer 'fast' prime (50/2?). Just picked up the M55-200.

Not sure we'll see a FF MILC, but maybe so if it's a 6D-M.

Let the record show that Neuro was excited about something.

I feel like The Grinch's small heart just grew three sizes.

- A

There are precedents...

Still...I'm definitely looking forward to the 1D X as better than the combination of 7D + 5DII.

I'm looking forward to...

Looking forward to it!

 

[Zv]

Haha typical, just caved and bought an M2 and now there's talk of new M's!

Will be nice to get a few more EF-M lenses though, that's something to look forward to! A small compact mid tele with IS would be nice to have in the bag.

FF M is not for me. Can already sense it will be out of my price range, which is currently close to zero as I've used up all my GAS money for the year

 

[ahsanford]

Yes, please - ff or aps-c - but not unless a first rate EVF is built in.

I'm still scratching my head how a company that has yet to give us an integral EVF* feels like "Yeah, sure, the hell with it, let's drop an FF rig on the market."

I want that rig, but I don't think they're ready yet.

*I'm often reminded that they have integral EVFs on consumer P&S, compacts, superzooms, and on the video rigs but I've watched/read so many reviews where folks accustomed to higher end SLR controls and handling feel handcuffed or let down by the EVF. It has taken Sony/Olympus/Fuji/etc. a number of generations to get the EVF interface & responsiveness where it needs to be.

So that's exactly why Canon should take a generation or two of 'enthusiast' models in APS-C before they get brave and offer a half-cooked FF mirrorless first offering, IMHO.

- A

 

[ahsanford]

There are precedents...

Still...I'm definitely looking forward to the 1D X as better than the combination of 7D + 5DII.

I'm looking forward to...

Looking forward to it!

Damn you and your data!

 

[Mt Spokane Photography]

FF mirrorless cameras that use EF lenses can be small, I have a number of old Canon film bodies that used EF lenses piled in my junk box. They are required to have the EF flange distance, but can be smaller.

Canon has already recently said that they cannot make a mirrorless camera match the performance of a DSLR, but there would be a market for what would be a low performance mirrorless. Not everyone needs super fast autofocus, or a OVF. I so expect a over priced camera though.

 

[traveller]

FF mirrorless cameras that use EF lenses can be small, I have a number of old Canon film bodies that used EF lenses piled in my junk box. They are required to have the EF flange distance, but can be smaller.

Canon has already recently said that they cannot make a mirrorless camera match the performance of a DSLR, but there would be a market for what would be a low performance mirrorless. Not everyone needs super fast autofocus, or a OVF. I so expect a over priced camera though.

Even SLRs needn't be huge:

http://www.darinmcquoid.com/blog296.html (not my website, btw, but a nice size comparison)

Of course, you need more depth on a digital camera for the sensor, electronics, screen, etc. There are also the modern demands of multipoint AF systems, which probably cause geometry issues.

Nevertheless, I still think there is potential for smaller bodies, if as you say, one is willing to sacrifice some performance and ergonomic requirements. Even more so if one is willing to sacrifice the mirror and OVF.

 

[Luds34]

So that's exactly why Canon should take a generation or two of 'enthusiast' models in APS-C before they get brave and offer a half-cooked FF mirrorless first offering, IMHO.

- A

As long as they are supplementing and not replacing anything in their current FF lineup then I don't see the issue/risk. Specifically, if there is still current 1D, 5D, and 6D available, I see no issue an adding a full frame mirrorless. Besides, I doubt it will be "half-cooked". While the tech may not be at the level for AI servo tracking of the best Canon cameras today, with DPAF and EVF tech where it is, it should still be a solid all around camera, especially if one doesn't need fast action/sports. Probably make a decent travel/vacation camera especially if paired with a few small primes.

 

[Loswr]

I'm still quite skeptical it will happen, but I am intrigued by the idea of a 6D M. Chassis of the 6-series (comparatively small for a FF dSLR), sans mirror. DPAF, decent EVF, priced like a 6D. It would be novel, integrate directly with current lenses, and be in a line amenable to 'consumer' features like WiFi/GPS/NFC, and at a level where DPAF tracking will be sufficient.

 

[ahsanford]

FF mirrorless cameras that use EF lenses can be small... [truncated]

Even SLRs needn't be huge:

[truncated]

Yes, they can be small but for most people that buy them, they won't be. Today's higher resolution sensors + the obsessive cult of sharpness + the pursuit of small DOF work = massive lenses. Unless you are prepared to stay in a small sensor / large aperture / standard focal length world, your size savings with mirrorless really are tiny. Consider: people don't pay thousands of dollars only to settle for f/2 primes and f/4 zooms.

That's why some 60% of this forum want a full-blown EF mount and a chunky grip on Canon's FF mirrorless offering.

- A

 

[RGF]

FF mirrorless cameras that use EF lenses can be small, I have a number of old Canon film bodies that used EF lenses piled in my junk box. They are required to have the EF flange distance, but can be smaller.

Canon has already recently said that they cannot make a mirrorless camera match the performance of a DSLR, but there would be a market for what would be a low performance mirrorless. Not everyone needs super fast autofocus, or a OVF. I so expect a over priced camera though.

Like to send Canon work on mirrorless for low FPS. Mirrorless for landscape and macro work (with a great sensor) would be well received in those circles.

 

[Don Haines]

Yes, please - ff or aps-c - but not unless a first rate EVF is built in.

I'm still scratching my head how a company that has yet to give us an integral EVF* feels like "Yeah, sure, the hell with it, let's drop an FF rig on the market."

I want that rig, but I don't think they're ready yet.

*I'm often reminded that they have integral EVFs on consumer P&S, compacts, superzooms, and on the video rigs but I've watched/read so many reviews where folks accustomed to higher end SLR controls and handling feel handcuffed or let down by the EVF. It has taken Sony/Olympus/Fuji/etc. a number of generations to get the EVF interface & responsiveness where it needs to be.

So that's exactly why Canon should take a generation or two of 'enthusiast' models in APS-C before they get brave and offer a half-cooked FF mirrorless first offering, IMHO.

- A

My expectation meshes with your logic......

I think that they have already had their first and second generation of EVF, and although they are getting better, they (Canon) are nowhere near optical yet. Companies like Olympus are starting to get closer to optical, not there yet, but they are "good enough". Plus, EVF allows you to see much more than optical, when they get it right there will be no going back for most people. Cameras like the 1DX3 may remain optical, but the masses (Rebels and the like) will eventually go EVF

I expect (and this is my opinion with no data to back it up) that we will soon see a Rebel with an EVF that is the same form factor as now and takes all of the same EF and EF-S lenses, and probably with the LP-6 battery instead of the smaller batteries that Rebels now come with...

 

[ahsanford]

I'm still quite skeptical it will happen, but I am intrigued by the idea of a 6D M. Chassis of the 6-series (comparatively small for a FF dSLR), sans mirror. DPAF, decent EVF, priced like a 6D. It would be novel, integrate directly with current lenses, and be in a line amenable to 'consumer' features like WiFi/GPS/NFC, and at a level where DPAF tracking will be sufficient.

Even if they keep the full EF mount, I think they'd still 'sexy up' the profile to accentuate the space savings somehow. Perhaps like Sigma's science fiction offering below: stout grip, full mount, but skinny in one little place.

Does it make sense to do this? None at all. Once you commit to the full EF mount, you might as well call it what it is and stuff as much battery as you can in a 6D sort of footprint.

But as much as the catcalls of 'mirrorless is supposed to be small' are completely pooped on by large aperture / FF / longer FLs needed sort of realities (aka 'physics' aka 'there is no free lunch'), being thin still defines this market to the consumer and I think Canon has to play on that until mirrorless is actually outperforming SLRs in a general sense (which we all know will be a while).

- A

 

[ahsanford]

FF mirrorless cameras that use EF lenses can be small, I have a number of old Canon film bodies that used EF lenses piled in my junk box. They are required to have the EF flange distance, but can be smaller.

Canon has already recently said that they cannot make a mirrorless camera match the performance of a DSLR, but there would be a market for what would be a low performance mirrorless. Not everyone needs super fast autofocus, or a OVF. I so expect a over priced camera though.

Like to send Canon work on mirrorless for low FPS. Mirrorless for landscape and macro work (with a great sensor) would be well received in those circles.

That's already happening, isn't it? A number of folks on this forum are shooting landscapes with their Canon glass on A7 rigs + adaptors right now.

- A

 

[Loswr]

But as much as the catcalls of 'mirrorless is supposed to be small' are completely pooped on by large aperture / FF / longer FLs needed sort of realities (aka 'physics' aka 'there is no free lunch'), being thin still defines this market to the consumer...

Is 'the consumer' to whom you refer that group of people who are buying thin cameras, or the >3-fold larger group of people who are buying 'thick' cameras? To which group do you think Canon should market this hypothetical 6D M camera?