Sony Announces the Sony A7 V

[CJaurelius]

Seems like the Sony A7 V has an impressive dynamic range:

Photographic Dynamic Range versus ISO Setting

www.photonstophotos.net

This was the last thing I was waiting for before I passed judgement on the A7V. More recently the increased sesnor speed has been coming at the expense of dynamic range. With the A7V having an increase in both speed and dynamic range I think this will be a pretty good seller.

 

[neuroanatomist]

Here is an analysis from Modor Intellegence on the global digital camera market:
supply-chain shocks from semiconductor shortages and 24–46% U.S. tariffs have nudged retail prices 20–40% higher across leading brands

Nice alignment between the tariffs and the retail price increases. Did you notice that the reasons suggested by Mordor Intelligence (not Modor, but why bother correctly citing sources?) for the price increases have zero resemblance to those that you suggested are the drivers?

Also worth noting that this and any other analyst reports may contain data and citations for them, but they also represent the opinion of the analyst. So unless the report includes data with a citation, it is best to assume the statements are the opinions of the analyst. Two people sharing an opinion does not make it a fact. The Google AI summary of a report is not the report.

But you would agree that under the scenario you outlined the typical Mercedes buyer is paying more for their vehichle correct? I'm making an assumption that people who pay more for a camera are more likely to not be a hobbyist. You don't have to agree, its just my assumption.

I would agree that the typical Mercedes buyer is paying more for their vehicle. I think the assumption that that spending more on an item means one is less likely to be a hobbyist is seriously flawed. Uber, Lyft and DoorDash drivers are far more likely to be behind the wheel of a Toyota than a Mercedes. Enthusiasts who are doctors/dentists/lawyers are more likely to have disposable income for a hobby, and they do not have to aim for ROI on equipment purchases or depreciate them over a 5 year period for tax purposes.

I'm not trying to convince anyone that my opinions are facts. As a former analyst I take the data I do have available and use that to make assumptions for future strategies.

Oh, ok. That totally explains why you stated earlier this year that mirrorless camera prices are exploding and posted a graph that stopped in 2022, even though the data from 2023 and 2024 showing that prices had flattened out were readily available. And now you’re relying on AI to support your claims. I’m not surprised that you’re a former analyst. Nice to see that incompetence is not rewarded with continued employment.

 

[neuroanatomist]

From the global digital market report:
Content creators posted a 6.8% CAGR and are reshaping the digital camera market size trajectory by demanding livestream-ready features at consumer-friendly prices. Professional photographers still generate the bulk of high-ticket body and lens sales, but creators deliver volume and social visibility.

Read that again. Carefully. Your point was that prices are going up, and that Sony’s base is mainly content creators and YouTubers. The statement you quoted is that content creators are the fastest growing segment (which doesn’t mean the largest), and that content creators are, “demanding…consumer-friendly prices,” and that creators deliver volume. First, as stated this is an analyst’s opinion and second, that opinion contradicts your prior statements. So again…well done?

 

[roby17269]

Sure you'll have the occassional hobbyis that can afford a Hasseblad or Leica. But the vast majority of non professional's just don't have the income to spend on a $2500+ camera body and $2000 lens. Expecially when for the most part they don't have the skill to take advantage of the more expensive equipment.

Meanwhile if you are a professional, having precapture can be the differnce between getting the shot or not. Who cares if you spend $3000 more for a camera body you are going to use for 3+ years? One good paid job justifies the cost.

I think you're still making some assumptions. I'd argue that the hobbyist market is going upmarket and that hobbyist are a larger population compared to professionals. While many professionals either rent gear or are given gear by manufacturers / agencies.
Admittedly my evidence is anecdotal: I know quite a few pros who told me so.

 

[CJaurelius]

Oh, ok. That totally explains why you stated earlier this year that mirrorless camera prices are exploding and posted a graph that stopped in 2022, even though the data from 2023 and 2024 showing that prices had flattened out were readily available. And now you’re relying on AI to support your claims. I’m not surprised that you’re a former analyst. Nice to see that incompetence is not rewarded with continued employment.

Were on an interent forum discussing cameras. This is not that serious. Have you ever heard of people getting promotions? Regardless let's agree to disagree. The fact that you interact with people like this says a lot about your character.

 

[neuroanatomist]

Some data (with rounded numbers):

• 150,000 US professional photographers (BLS)
• 620,000 YouTube channels with 100k subs (Google)
• 6,600,000 ILCs shipped in 2024 (CIPA)

Extrapolate the US number to maybe 1,000,000 global professionals (big grain of salt, but the US represents ~25% of the population of the 'developed' world).

So if every professional photographer and every 'successful' YouTuber (as defined by a silver play button) bought a new ILC in 2024 (which didn't happen, of course), then that's about 25% of the market. So maybe the 'pro/creator' bucket accounts for 10% of the ILC market. Fully acknowledge there are many assumptions in the above, but even with those it's apparent that someone suggesting that professionals account for the majority camera sales is way off base.

The bottom line is that the market comprises a range of buyers, as Canon puts it they, "...offer a lineup that satisfies both demand for still image photography from professional photographers and camera enthusiasts, and for diverse video recording from social media users."

 

[GMCPhotographics]

I am not sure how Canon or Sony would even know what the other was going to come out with.
Each camera was a reasonable upgrade.
The only advantage that Sony had is that they knew the Canon price ahead of setting theirs.

Industrial Espionage is rife, it’s amazing what information financial bribes can yield.

 

[David - Sydney]

Some data (with rounded numbers):

• 150,000 US professional photographers (BLS)
• 620,000 YouTube channels with 100k subs (Google)
• 6,600,000 ILCs shipped in 2024 (CIPA)

Extrapolate the US number to maybe 1,000,000 global professionals (big grain of salt, but the US represents ~25% of the population of the 'developed' world).

So if every professional photographer and every 'successful' YouTuber (as defined by a silver play button) bought a new ILC in 2024 (which didn't happen, of course), then that's about 25% of the market. So maybe the 'pro/creator' bucket accounts for 10% of the ILC market. Fully acknowledge there are many assumptions in the above, but even with those it's apparent that someone suggesting that professionals account for the majority camera sales is way off base.

The bottom line is that the market comprises a range of buyers, as Canon puts it they, "...offer a lineup that satisfies both demand for still image photography from professional photographers and camera enthusiasts, and for diverse video recording from social media users."

I'll add 2 points for professional photographers (without data)....
- The cruise line industry is ruthless for minimising cost and maximising profitability for items besides cabin costs and their photography department would be one of those. They are still using DLSRs which surprised me but they have reasonable lighting. This avoids the need for high ISO sensors and no need for high mp sensors when printing to average sizes.
- In "developing" countries (think China/India/Indonesia etc) there are massive markets for weddings with middle class roughly defined as USD500-5000/month salary. India = ~10m weddings/year with Indonesia 1.5m and China = ~8m. The wedding segment can be a relatively big spend and "professional photographers" need to look professional. Having a "professional" ILC - even a DLSR - is a big differentiator compared to everyone having a phone with camera on it.

I am suggesting that volume professional photographers exist at the low cost end of photography.
With baby boomers retiring and living longer plus expanding middle class in all geographies allow them to have greater disposal income. All OEMs are chasing this more profitable growing segment.

 

[EOS 4 Life]

This does not make much sense to me: in my experience, hobbyists are the ones that tend to have the best equipment, even more than pros: pros need to justify the "investment" and therefore look closely to costs v benefits of every piece of gear, and often rent rather than own, or are loaned gear by manufacturers (often the case in fashion photography)... hobbyists do not have to do that.

I disagree that pros need to justify their investment.
They, of course, need to make more money than they spend, but I know plenty of pros who pay for things they like more than I need.
On the other hand, I agree that hobbyists spend more money.
I think that is because they have higher-paying jobs and have more money to spend.

 

[EOS 4 Life]

Sure you'll have the occassional hobbyis that can afford a Hasseblad or Leica. But the vast majority of non professional's just don't have the income to spend on a $2500+ camera body and $2000 lens.

That is entirely backward.
Being behind a camera is not the way to earn the highest money.
It is much easier to get a job on Wall Street and buy a room full of cameras.

 

[CJaurelius]

I think you're still making some assumptions. I'd argue that the hobbyist market is going upmarket and that hobbyist are a larger population compared to professionals. While many professionals either rent gear or are given gear by manufacturers / agencies.
Admittedly my evidence is anecdotal: I know quite a few pros who told me so.

Agreed that were all making assumptions. From what I have seen from most reports are that Professional is the largest end user( by revenue), followed by Prosumer and then hobbyist. Content Creator/Prosumer may or may not be grouped together depending on where you look. As mentioned Content Creator is the fastest growing group based on revenue.

By end user, content creators registered the fastest growth trajectory with a 6.8% CAGR through 2030, whereas professional photographers retained 35.6% revenue share in 2024.
Source: https://www.mordorintelligence.com/industry-reports/digital-camera-market

So Content creators grew, Professonals retained and therefore the hobbyist is probably what decreased a bit. This is as a precent of revenue and since revenue increased its possible that each group made more money its just the mix that is shifting.

I don't disagree that the hobbyist market is going upmarket as well. That was a core part of my argument. My macro view was that the bottom of the market is being eroded to smartphones and the Chinese and the Japanese camera makers are shifting toward more premium products rather than trying to compete head to head on price. For example Full frame is gaining ground. So if smartphones and the Chinese are making more and more small sensor cameras the Japanese are making more larger sensors.

In this thread particularly (and due to the A7V lack of features) I was arguing that because innovation is slowing new features are getting trickled out to keep the appearance of progress even though progess is stalling.

A hobbyist will be less likely to upgrade without a real meanigful upgrade. And we are hitting a point to where for the casual shooter they may never need to upgrade. I argued for example 8K tv's are declining in sales. So if we never surpass 4K displays as mainstream why would we need 12k consumer cameras for example?

So if you are buyng a camera to use occaisionally and that camera doesn't break and there is nothing substaintially better 5 years from now there will be no reason to upgrade.

Contrast that with the prosumer/professional where they are beating the crap out their equipment and can benefit from minimal new feautures as they are getting paid for the content they produce. As a result they are going to cylcle through equipment at a faster rate through either upgrade or replacing worn out items.

As mention in the report the Chinese have increase compact shipments by 213%. At some point they will move up to larger sensor cameras. I'm not sure what they are going to do at that point.

Now of course the future always throws something crazy at you. I wouldn't be surprised if they figure out how to put AI and some other software in the camera and then tie it to a subscription.

 

[EOS 4 Life]

With the A7V having an increase in both speed and dynamic range I think this will be a pretty good seller.

It would have been a good seller regardless.
Sony fanboys are just salty that it is unimpressive compared to the competition.

 

[neuroanatomist]

On the other hand, I agree that hobbyists spend more money.
I think that is because they have higher-paying jobs and have more money to spend.

I would agree with that. In the US, BLS lists the median annual income for a professional photographer as $53K. Dentists, lawyers and doctors have median annual incomes 3-5x higher.

Of course, for a subset of photographers someone else is buying the gear. I use lots of expensive scientific equipment that I didn't buy with my own money. In those cases, it's Getty, SI, etc., buying the gear in bulk based on negotiated prices (and that's why 'Getty is switching to Sony' says nothing about the quality of the gear or photographer preferences). But that subset is shrinking as staff photographer positions are progressively eliminated.

Also, for a photographer (or anyone running an independent business) the income is not revenue, it's what is taken out after expenses. But with a median annual income of $53K, most business owners taking those amounts out of their business are going to be looking to minimize expenses to the greatest extent possible. That's why there are a lot of professional photographers still using DSLRs.

 

[roby17269]

I disagree that pros need to justify their investment.
They, of course, need to make more money than they spend, but I know plenty of pros who pay for things they like more than I need.

As I know pros that had to downsize since they cannot afford expensive gear anymore...
Agreed that individuals will do what they want and not all pros will limit their gear to the bare minimum that guarantees them an income.

I am into fashion photography and so the pros I know are in that field as well. Fashion used to be the realm of medium format but nowadays most fashion pros use medium format only when they are sponsored by Hassy / P1 / Fuji. If they still own cameras at all they will have Canon / Sony / Nikon / Fuji crop.
Obviously there are the ones at the top of the food chain who make millions, and those will have expensive gear, but those are the exception, not the rule.

 

[neuroanatomist]

By end user, content creators registered the fastest growth trajectory with a 6.8% CAGR through 2030, whereas professional photographers retained 35.6% revenue share in 2024.

So Content creators grew, Professonals retained and therefore the hobbyist is probably what decreased a bit. This is as a precent of revenue and since revenue increased its possible that each group made more money its just the mix that is shifting.

Thanks for that. I wasn't aware that CAGR has a fixed denominator, such that different segments must sum to 100% and if one segment grows then another must shrink. I also wasn't aware that predicted future growth (I think growth is the G in CAGR, right?) and current revenue share are the same type of information, such that they can be readily compared and/or added together.

Just goes to show, we're presented with new information every day. I guess the trick is to determine what information comes from a reliable source, and what information comes from someone talking out of their nether orifice. Fortunately for me, I am able to make that determination.

 

[roby17269]

Agreed that were all making assumptions. From what I have seen from most reports are that Professional is the largest end user( by revenue), followed by Prosumer and then hobbyist. Content Creator/Prosumer may or may not be grouped together depending on where you look. As mentioned Content Creator is the fastest growing group based on revenue.

I think the problem with those analysis is that there are no well-defined boundaries to separate hobbyists from prosumers from content creators. So it is difficult to establish what category goes up or down.

I don't disagree that the hobbyist market is going upmarket as well. That was a core part of my argument. My macro view was that the bottom of the market is being eroded to smartphones and the Chinese and the Japanese camera makers are shifting toward more premium products rather than trying to compete head to head on price. For example Full frame is gaining ground. So if smartphones and the Chinese are making more and more small sensor cameras the Japanese are making more larger sensors.

Agreed

A hobbyist will be less likely to upgrade without a real meanigful upgrade. And we are hitting a point to where for the casual shooter they may never need to upgrade. I argued for example 8K tv's are declining in sales. So if we never surpass 4K displays as mainstream why would we need 12k consumer cameras for example?

Well a lot of "gearheads" upgrade regardless Personally I tend to skip a generation (both with cameras and phones) but I haven't followed this rule recently with drones. I tell myself that the newer ones are a clear improvement (they are!), but the reality is that my drone flying / filmmaking skills are such that the previous generation was not limiting me But I wanted the new ones, so...

Contrast that with the prosumer/professional where they are beating the crap out their equipment and can benefit from minimal new feautures as they are getting paid for the content they produce. As a result they are going to cylcle through equipment at a faster rate through either upgrade or replacing worn out items.

While I do not shoot day in and day out, the main reason I am looking at a X2D II is that my H5X is about to give up the ghost. The X2D II also has a CMOS sensor and ok AF, which make me overlook the painful (to me) fact that I will be downgrading sensor size (from 54x40mm to 44x33mm ).
But apart from mileage, most pros I know are more sensitive to workflow improvements than camera-specific improvements (like resolution, AF, etc.) so they are more interested into accessories, software etc.
Just saying that there are different dynamics that may affect photographers in different ways.

Now of course the future always throws something crazy at you. I wouldn't be surprised if they figure out how to put AI and some other software in the camera and then tie it to a subscription.

Well color me uninterested I'm all in for smart AF, but call me old-fashioned, I want to be in control of the photos I take.

 

[David - Sydney]

As I know pros that had to downsize since they cannot afford expensive gear anymore...

which is unfortunate but the internet meme has a lot of truth to it

 

[David - Sydney]

Agreed that were all making assumptions. From what I have seen from most reports are that Professional is the largest end user( by revenue), followed by Prosumer and then hobbyist. Content Creator/Prosumer may or may not be grouped together depending on where you look. As mentioned Content Creator is the fastest growing group based on revenue.

Canon/Nikon/Sony probably have more granular market segments (especially by region) but for me, there are 3 buyer categories:
1 Full time professionals whose primary business is photography ie selling images or run/gun hourly rates etc.
2 Professionals whose side hustle/part time business is photography or who needs camera gear to provide an income from other sources. They aren't fussed on brand, want simplicity and are cost conscious.
3 Everyone else who can afford some or a lot of camera gear from their disposable income and make no or minimum money from images.

I am definitely in the third category and bought low end gear a long time ago when I had little disposable income and substantially more now.
OEMs target this segment as they can get long term value capture.

Photography workshops - especially travel destinations are a big growth area for full time pros vs having a gallery and trying to sell prints. Providing white glove travel experiences is where some can make a lot of money!
That said, there are now specialist dog photographers making 6 figures as well heeled empty nesters or other couples have fur babies buying lots of big prints.

Maybe in my transition-to-retirement after being retrenched, I might sell some prints or offer custom day trips around Sydney to traveling photographers. Something I would like to pay for when I am traveling to new places

 

[ThomasTH]

This was the last thing I was waiting for before I passed judgement on the A7V. More recently the increased sesnor speed has been coming at the expense of dynamic range. With the A7V having an increase in both speed and dynamic range I think this will be a pretty good seller.

It loses quite a bit of DR when using the electronic shutter (although it uses 14 bit in ES mode).

Photographic Dynamic Range versus ISO Setting

 

[EOS 4 Life]

Canon/Nikon/Sony probably have more granular market segments (especially by region) but for me, there are 3 buyer categories:
1 Full time professionals whose primary business is photography ie selling images or run/gun hourly rates etc.
2 Professionals whose side hustle/part time business is photography or who needs camera gear to provide an income from other sources. They aren't fussed on brand, want simplicity and are cost conscious.
3 Everyone else who can afford some or a lot of camera gear from their disposable income and make no or minimum money from images.

They are not so much buyer categories as marketing categories.
People buy whatever they want.