Sony FF NEX - competition is good. Canon?

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#5
Dylan777 said:
All I can say is, keep the body and lenses small as RX1. These will be flying off the shelves
Click to expand...

YES, but only IF ... product and price are "really right".
From the sounds of the rumor mill, Sony will come out with at least 2 mirrorless FF system cameras with FE-mount. ["Full-Frame E-Mount].

If the lower-end model should really come without built-in (electronic) viewfinder and costs as much or even more as a Canon 6D / Nikon D600 ... plus cost of an add-on EVF [Sony charges $/€ 495,- for these] I do not expect it to sell well. Definitely not well enough to allow Sony to quickly build a nice lens line-up and system around it.

Similar to the Sony RX-1 - a nice camera, but way too limited (fixed 35mm lens, no viewfinder, no lens mount!) and grossly overpriced at 3k. That thingie should be 999,- at the max in order to fly off the shelves.

Nevertheless, I really look forward to Sony hopefully bringing mirrorless FF cameras to market soon, forcing Canon to come up with something *dramatically more interesting* than the EOS-M (no viewfinder, APS-C).
 
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#6
I haven't seen any sales figures on the RX1, but the price is still (too) high so it must be selling up to expectations - right? This might also appeal to Leica users (with mount adapter and software) assuming the backplane is OK - has to be cheaper than an M9. It'll also be interesting to see if Fuji joins the FF fray. All good.
 
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#7
AvTvM said:
Dylan777 said:
All I can say is, keep the body and lenses small as RX1. These will be flying off the shelves
Click to expand...

YES, but only IF ... product and price are "really right".
From the sounds of the rumor mill, Sony will come out with at least 2 mirrorless FF system cameras with FE-mount. ["Full-Frame E-Mount].

If the lower-end model should really come without built-in (electronic) viewfinder and costs as much or even more as a Canon 6D / Nikon D600 ... plus cost of an add-on EVF [Sony charges $/€ 495,- for these] I do not expect it to sell well. Definitely not well enough to allow Sony to quickly build a nice lens line-up and system around it.

Similar to the Sony RX-1 - a nice camera, but way too limited (fixed 35mm lens, no viewfinder, no lens mount!) and grossly overpriced at 3k. That thingie should be 999,- at the max in order to fly off the shelves.
Nevertheless, I really look forward to Sony hopefully bringing mirrorless FF cameras to market soon, forcing Canon to come up with something *dramatically more interesting* than the EOS-M (no viewfinder, APS-C).
Click to expand...

Keep on dreaming AvTvM
 
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#8
Dylan777 said:
Keep on dreaming AvTvM
Click to expand...

quite to the opposite: camera makers are really dreaming if they believe, many potential buyers of mirrorless system cameras are wiling to pay MORE for a CHEAPER to produce mirrorless camera compared to an equally capable DSLR. Apparently they have to learn this the hard way. :-)
 
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#9
AvTvM said:
Dylan777 said:
Keep on dreaming AvTvM
Click to expand...

quite to the opposite: camera makers are really dreaming if they believe, many potential buyers of mirrorless system cameras are wiling to pay MORE for a CHEAPER to produce mirrorless camera compared to an equally capable DSLR. Apparently they have to learn this the hard way. :-)
Click to expand...

The price tag on RX1 is still $2800 - still selling like a hot cake ;)
 
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#10
Dylan777 said:
AvTvM said:
Dylan777 said:
Keep on dreaming AvTvM
Click to expand...

quite to the opposite: camera makers are really dreaming if they believe, many potential buyers of mirrorless system cameras are wiling to pay MORE for a CHEAPER to produce mirrorless camera compared to an equally capable DSLR. Apparently they have to learn this the hard way. :-)
Click to expand...

The price tag on RX1 is still $2800 - still selling like a hot cake ;)
Click to expand...

Don't you mean haute cakes ::)
 
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#11
There are three rumored E mount full frame cameras.
  • 1) Entry level possibly without integrated View finder.
  • 2) Nex 9 Slightly larger than current Nex7 and similar button layout.
  • 3) E mount with DSLR shape possibly having an adjustable focus plan to have auto focus with non-Sony lens and in body 5 axis IS

I have a nearly complete set of vintage lens that I have been using with my Nex 6. If the subject is not moving there are plenty of focusing tools built into Sony cameras to aid focus. (I find the focus peeking works better on Sony than with ML.)

These cameras in my opinion only make sense with small fairly compact primes. Is this a threat to canon no they will target different audiences. But I am likely buying one.
 
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#12
tcmatthews said:
These cameras in my opinion only make sense with small fairly compact primes. Is this a threat to canon no they will target different audiences. But I am likely buying one.
Click to expand...

Mirrorless cameras are not only useful with small prime lenses.

I am waiting for a fully-capable, ultra-compact FF-sensored mirrorless system camera as my one and only camera. Depending on subject and intention I'd take along a tiny pancake lens between 20mm/2.8 and 75mm/2.8 when I want to go light. And when I need a 70-200/2.8, 400/2.8 or TS-E 17/4 I would use those connected via adapter ring. Yes, the package will not be small and light any longer. But most of the time I´d be using it on a tripod, so it don't matter. And even without tripod, it would still be smaller and lighter than with a fully-capable DSLR.

That's why I am hoping for a FF mirrorless sized like a Sony RX-1 [plus EVF "hump"], as capable as a 5D IV and priced like a Nikon D800. I'd prefer it to be from Canon due to existing investment in L glass and speedlites and because I like the Canon user-interface. BUT ... if Sony (or Nikon) come out first with such a FF mirrorless camera I will likely switch.
 
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#14
AvTvM said:
Dylan777 said:
Keep on dreaming AvTvM
Click to expand...

quite to the opposite: camera makers are really dreaming if they believe, many potential buyers of mirrorless system cameras are wiling to pay MORE for a CHEAPER to produce mirrorless camera compared to an equally capable DSLR. Apparently they have to learn this the hard way. :-)
Click to expand...

And a perfectly competitive marketplace, with lots of sellers selling essentially identical goods and/or services, would teach them that rapidly. Unfortunately, we don't have a perfectly competitive marketplace.

Like you, I expect mirrorless FF cameras to largely replace DSLRs. There is, however, the question of delays and when they occur. With a mirrorless camera, there will always be a delay from when the event occurs until it appears on the EVF, a delay that does not occur with a DSLR. However, the DSLR has the delay caused by having to move the mirror, which the mirrorless camera eliminates. So, pick your poison.
 
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#15
Canon is so far behind in technology that it just isn't funny anymore. I've said it before and I'll say it again ... the EOS 100D should have been a mirrorless camera (comparable to the Panasonic G3 and G5), the EOS 70D should have been a mirrorless camera (comparable to the Panasonic G6 and GH3, and the Olympus E-M5 and E-M1), and the EOS 6D Mark II must be a full-frame mirrorless camera. Add to this that Canon is trying to sell the current crop of DSLR's, especially the 70D, to amateur videographers, but has absolutely nothing comparable to Olympus' (and now Sony's) 5-axis IBIS.

As an aside, what current mirrorless systems lack in terms of native lenses, they make good in support for the plethora of old, yet excellent, manual focus lenses.
 
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#16
Sella174 said:
Canon is so far behind in technology that it just isn't funny anymore. I've said it before and I'll say it again ... the EOS 100D should have been a mirrorless camera (comparable to the Panasonic G3 and G5), the EOS 70D should have been a mirrorless camera (comparable to the Panasonic G6 and GH3, and the Olympus E-M5 and E-M1), and the EOS 6D Mark II must be a full-frame mirrorless camera. Add to this that Canon is trying to sell the current crop of DSLR's, especially the 70D, to amateur videographers, but has absolutely nothing comparable to Olympus' (and now Sony's) 5-axis IBIS.

As an aside, what current mirrorless systems lack in terms of native lenses, they make good in support for the plethora of old, yet excellent, manual focus lenses.
Click to expand...

If the EOS 6D Mark II went mirrorless than that would be pointless without a mount change and new lens lineup.

Putting an EF mount on a mirrorless camera adds a ridiculous amount of bulk which defeats the whole point of a mirrorless setup but to call it a 6D Mark II would make no sense to change mounts going from the Mk I -> Mk II.

The sony E mount makes sense because it has a 18mm flange distance vs 44mm for the EF mount.
 
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#17
hambergler said:
If the EOS 6D Mark II went mirrorless than that would be pointless without a mount change and new lens lineup.

Putting an EF mount on a mirrorless camera adds a ridiculous amount of bulk which defeats the whole point of a mirrorless setup but to call it a 6D Mark II would make no sense to change mounts going from the Mk I -> Mk II.

The sony E mount makes sense because it has a 18mm flange distance vs 44mm for the EF mount.
Click to expand...

The new FF lensmount could simply comprise shortening the distance from sensor plane to lens flange and introducing an adapter to take up the space, so that old lenses could still be used. As for the need for a new lens lineup, I somewhat agree with you, but, since the old lenses would still be usable, the new lineup can be introduced over several years. Hopefully the new lenses would be smaller than the old.

As for a name, how about "M6D"?
 
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#18
Bob Howland said:
hambergler said:
If the EOS 6D Mark II went mirrorless than that would be pointless without a mount change and new lens lineup.

Putting an EF mount on a mirrorless camera adds a ridiculous amount of bulk which defeats the whole point of a mirrorless setup but to call it a 6D Mark II would make no sense to change mounts going from the Mk I -> Mk II.

The sony E mount makes sense because it has a 18mm flange distance vs 44mm for the EF mount.
Click to expand...

The new FF lensmount could simply comprise shortening the distance from sensor plane to lens flange and introducing an adapter to take up the space, so that old lenses could still be used. As for the need for a new lens lineup, I somewhat agree with you, but, since the old lenses would still be usable, the new lineup can be introduced over several years. Hopefully the new lenses would be smaller than the old.

As for a name, how about "M6D"?
Click to expand...

I agree, but they could also (for some lenses anyway, especially the UWA) retain the EF mount and have the rear element protrude into the 'mirror'less box as was not uncommon before.
 
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#19
Sony has been one of my favorite electronics companies since I was a kid in the 80's because of their spirit of innovation and their willingness to make new exciting products. Sony was as cool or even cooler in the 80's than Apple is today.
I have owned a couple of Sony Cybershot cameras as P&S and was always pretty happy with their IQ and overall quality(this is before I bought my first DSLR, a Canon.)
I'm thrilled with the new FF rumors. I was very curious about the RX1, but settled for the EOS-M with 22mm for 10% of the cost, a choice I've been very happy with.
However, one of my main reasons for doing this was that I wanted to save money for the hopefully awesome FF mirrorless camera that is soon to be announced. I'm thinking of selling all my DSLR gear now and buying this camera if they can put the pieces together in to a solid overall camera with a few nice lens choices.
I am very tired of big, heavy DSLR's, and I am thrilled at the idea of downsizing to an EOS M and hopefully a similar size FF system!!!
 
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