Sony finally offers big/fast zooms

[candc]

There are some samples here

http://www.cameralabs.com/reviews/Sony_FE_85mm_f1-4_GM/

http://briansmith.com/field-test-sony-g-master-24-70-f2-8-85-f1-4-lenses/

Looks really good. Sony seems to have went all in with these lenses.

 

[jrista]

Jrista, I won't quote-reply here, but thanks for your comments.

If Hamburger A is a proper tracking AF SLR with a FF sensor and a 600mm prime, Hamburger B will really suck in comparison (if 600mm is still needed).

The Venn diagram overlap of [tracking AF] + [reach] + [FF sensor IQ] is simply a brutal one to recreate elsewhere. All your best options are a big step down the mountain:

• Fuji + their new 100-400 --> I question their tracking AF but that could work
• Sony crop (A6300) + a native long lens --> the glass isn't nearly as good
• Sony crop (A6300) + a great Canon long lens --> cool new AF system notwithstanding, can it drive the big glass quickly and accurately?
• m43 + 300mm prime --> fine, but you'll be handcuffed ISO-wise and the sensors simply aren't as good

I'm not trying to shoot you down here, but any sensor upside you might see will be absolutely pummeled by what those other systems can't do that your Hamburger A already can.

Perhaps a one-off major spend on a Camera B setup of a D500 and their 200-500 would be more compact, deliver fine IQ and track subjects well. But you clearly have tortured the problem and have a different take on things.

- A

I would say jury is still out on:

• Sony crop (A6300) + a native long lens --> the glass isn't nearly as good

Sony just released the new 70-200mm G FE lens. We still need to see how good that thing is, but it's the first of a new line of higher end lenses from Sony. I have high hopes...and I really like Sony's approach with their photography business so far. They are responsive to customers, and responsive much more quickly than Canon. With Canon, it takes years and years...with Sony they usually respond with new products much more quickly. I used to think that was a bad thing...but man...I WAIT for Canon for everything, and I'm so tired of waiting.

Plus, you completely missed the 150-600mm lens on EF mount adapted to the E mount. Much smaller lens, but still 600mm. I've seen the IQ, it's great. It isn't super fast, so the focus group isn't going to require the kind of power that my 600/4 would. That would give me the option of either the 5D III + 600/4, 5D III + 150-600, a6300 + 150-600 (probably the ideal option for a lot of my work), and, if it worked, even the a6300 + 600/4 (tripod only, I'd guess). Plus, I'll probably pick up the new Sony 70-200 if an adapted Canon 70-200 doesn't work as well as I need, and since I intend to be a Canon+Sony guy for the long term, having Sony lenses in my kit doesn't bother me. I actually really want to pair the small a6300 with some of Sony's small E-mount leses...there are some I want that fit into a small corner of my pocket, and I can carry around the camera and a bunch of lenses and not even feel the weight of any of it. Portability with excellent features and excellent IQ across the board is one of my goals here, and Canon still doesn't have anything to offer me on that front. (If Canon DID have something to offer, then I wouldn't be nearly as excited about the a6300.)

 

[jrista]

11.1 fps is better than 7 yes....,

When I sold my 7d to a good friend of mine (for a friendly price), I was looking to add something else,
At the time the 70d looked like an good option, but mirrorless looked compelling as well....
Im a sucker for buffer, and consider it the only downside on the 1mkiv (It would have approached perfection for me if it had 50-60-70raw)
So after crunching some numbers I ended up adding an olympus ( lol..., I would have never thought that).

Sorry to bore some of you with some numbers ,
But some math did the trick for me.... ,


...

We still have to see how the a6300 performs. I suspect it will perform better than a 34% hit rate, at least with E-mount glass. I also suspect it will be a better than 34% hit rate with adapted Canon glass. I don't know exactly what the hit rate will be, and I'm also skeptical about many of the early reviews that come out in regards to autofocus performance. It takes time to learn an AF system. Going from the 7D to the 5D III took time, and I'd been using the 7D for years, and was well versed with Canon's AF system. Even after configuring the 5D III with my preferred button layout, it still took time to fully come to grips with the 61pt AF system's capabilities.

I've used the A7r and a6000. With Sony glass they perform well, and the a6000 AF system is pretty nice (once it locks onto a subject, it seems to maintain the lock and track better than my 5D III). But I have no illusions about needing to spend time with the a6300 to learn it's focus system. With proper control and a proper understanding of how the system works, I believe I can have just as good a keeper rate as if I was using a 7D II. Even Canon's system is not ideal. I had plenty of misses with the 7D...the intrinsic jitter with that 19pt AF system was high enough that I had an effective 5fps frame rate (out of the rated 8fps.) The 5D III gets maybe 4-5fps effective when you account for the bit of jitter, sometimes a little worse in less than ideal light (which is quite frequent with a lot of wildlife shooting). The 5D III has never performed on AF like the 1D X. The 7D II, which two friends of mine own, fares better, but I would say it's an effective 7-8fps most of the time sometimes better (and it sounds awesome when it's firing away at a continuous 10fps), as there is still that bit of jitter.

So if the a6300 is 11.1fps, once I learn how to use it's AF system properly, I expect to get an effective 8-9fps out of it.

 

[quod]

I don't think they will replace DSLR's any time soon for most (wildlife) users (ergonomics alone with long glass), but these last few years we have seen some interesting developments !, Being able to use all those nice canon lenses on sony's with peaking, and now even with (possibly reliable) af.... and maybe even some tracking capabilities...

Agreed. I do a lot of bird in flight shots, and I don't think we are there yet with mirrorless. The A6300's live-view mode for tracking sounds like a good innovation for normalizing high-speed wildlife photography between mirror and mirrorless designs. As nice as the A6300 looks on paper though, it still has issues. No joystick, unknown buffer size, small battery, not very rugged/weatherproofing, etc. I'm not worried about the size, as I can balance the lens/camera on my gimbal. The reality is that I have to do a lot of adjustments in different zone modes, and I often do them during fast-moving sequences. Without a joystick (and AF area select button), I don't see how it will work for me unless Sony's system is so smart I don't have to worry about it. Buffers are key, too. For slow moving wildlife though, the A6300 dynamic range + crop would be wonderful.

 

[ahsanford]

Agreed. I do a lot of bird in flight shots, and I don't think we are there yet with mirrorless. The A6300's live-view mode for tracking sounds like a good innovation for normalizing high-speed wildlife photography between mirror and mirrorless designs. As nice as the A6300 looks on paper though, it still has issues. No joystick, unknown buffer size, small battery, not very rugged/weatherproofing, etc. I'm not worried about the size, as I can balance the lens/camera on my gimbal. The reality is that I have to do a lot of adjustments in different zone modes, and I often do them during fast-moving sequences. Without a joystick (and AF area select button), I don't see how it will work for me unless Sony's system is so smart I don't have to worry about it. Buffers are key, too. For slow moving wildlife though, the A6300 dynamic range + crop would be wonderful.

Five years ago, if you had said to me that "In 2016, people will use [an APS-C mirrorless rig] and 'gimbal' in the same sentence", I'd have laughed at you.

Again, I'm not shooting down the idea or ridiculing it -- I'm marveling that we're even talking about it.

- A

 

[candc]

I don't think they will replace DSLR's any time soon for most (wildlife) users (ergonomics alone with long glass), but these last few years we have seen some interesting developments !, Being able to use all those nice canon lenses on sony's with peaking, and now even with (possibly reliable) af.... and maybe even some tracking capabilities...

Agreed. I do a lot of bird in flight shots, and I don't think we are there yet with mirrorless. The A6300's live-view mode for tracking sounds like a good innovation for normalizing high-speed wildlife photography between mirror and mirrorless designs. As nice as the A6300 looks on paper though, it still has issues. No joystick, unknown buffer size, small battery, not very rugged/weatherproofing, etc. I'm not worried about the size, as I can balance the lens/camera on my gimbal. The reality is that I have to do a lot of adjustments in different zone modes, and I often do them during fast-moving sequences. Without a joystick (and AF area select button), I don't see how it will work for me unless Sony's system is so smart I don't have to worry about it. Buffers are key, too. For slow moving wildlife though, the A6300 dynamic range + crop would be wonderful.

I do a lot of bif shooting. There seems to be a lot of speculation about how good the Sony cameras are for this but not a lot of first hand reports. I think next time out I will give it a go with the a7rii and 400doii. I will shoot crop mode and see if the af can keep up. Ive gotten used to the camera now so I know how to change af functions and such on the fly.

 

[Aglet]

Sony G-Master Lenses - 50 lp/mm

I don't know if anyone's posted this link or watched it but here's the Sony Press'r from Feb 03.

The goal for their new, shall we call them "pro" series of G-master lenses is 50 line-pairs per millimeter.
You find the lens info starts around 21 minute mark.

More on the a6300 is near the start of the presentation.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZDGnl5SHBzc

edit: add

- emphasis on transition zone bokeh
I think I heard something about 10nm lens surface precision and more careful element placement which provides the smoother focus transition.
More advanced optical design software (really, this didn't exist before?!?) allows them to evaluate performance BEFORE building the lens.

same 10nm precision of position for the focus group movement, also increased speed for moving the large groups

$2200us/2900cdn in March for 24-70/2.8

$1800us/2400cdn in March for 85/1.4

no price yet, 70-200/2.8 in May, ~1m min focus
1.4x & 2x TCs specifically for the 70-200 available in future

 

[stochasticmotions]

I also do quite a bit of bird in flight shooting. A6000 with the sony 70-200 was quite good for tracking once I figured out the right settings. Problem of course is lack of reach with native lenses. Currently using A7RII with same lens and the tracking is just as good but you don't get the 10 frames per second. Have been using the canon 100-400 II (with and without 1.4 kenko) on the A7RII...tracking is quite good if you are not starting well out of focus. Definitely hunts much longer than I would like and I have missed opportunities with that combo. Still think it is amazing that it is as good as it is in such a short time with non native lenses. Last combo I use is Sigma 120-300 f2.8 with and without the canon 2X teleconverter. This combo actually tracks better than the canon 100-400 but once in a while it will crash the camera. I'm still using the version 2 of the metabones adapter, not sure if it would be significantly better with the newer one.

For now I carry both the 1D IV and the sony around since more static nature shots are pretty amazing with the sony and quick shots are still better on the canon. Might even look back into the panasonic if that new 100-400 could be paired with a good tracking new m4/3 camera.....Choices

Can't wait to see what comes on both the canon and sony side in the next year or two.

 

[janmaxim]

Re: Sony G-Master Lenses - 50 lp/mm

More advanced optical design software (really, this didn't exist before?!?) allows them to evaluate performance BEFORE building the lens.

Probably a more evolutionary update with better features or better simulation models giving better precision to the software's predictions on the lens/optics performance.

 

[9VIII]

Re: Sony G-Master Lenses - 50 lp/mm

The goal for their new, shall we call them "pro" series of G-master lenses is 50 line-pairs per millimeter.
You find the lens info starts around 21 minute mark.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZDGnl5SHBzc

Yikes, Sony certainly aren't pulling punches. They might actually end up making the only other 70-200 lens that's good for portraits.

It's hard to say exactly what they mean by "50lp/mm baseline" though. Obviously that's not across the frame, but are they saying that still applies at f1.4 on the new 85mm G Master?
If not then what they're advertising is basically the same as the Sigma Art series, but for more than twice as much money.
Even so, it's a good shot at the competition. If we've learned anything in the last few months, it's that Canon and Nikon can still be very protective of their lens market.

Roger is going to be a busy man when these lenses start shipping. Sony can talk standards, but the averages off the test bench will tell us what's really going on.
Build quality is another thing Canon seems to be leveraging quite well lately. I doubt Sony's 85GM is going to match the EF 35f1.4MkII, but we'll see. I can't wait to see that 70-200 get stripped down and see what the dual AF motor system looks like.

 

[Reality Merely Illusion]

11.1 fps is better than 7 yes....,

When I sold my 7d to a good friend of mine (for a friendly price), I was looking to add something else,
At the time the 70d looked like an good option, but mirrorless looked compelling as well....
Im a sucker for buffer, and consider it the only downside on the 1mkiv (It would have approached perfection for me if it had 50-60-70raw)
So after crunching some numbers I ended up adding an olympus ( lol..., I would have never thought that).

Sorry to bore some of you with some numbers ,
But some math did the trick for me.... ,


...

We still have to see how the a6300 performs. I suspect it will perform better than a 34% hit rate, at least with E-mount glass. I also suspect it will be a better than 34% hit rate with adapted Canon glass. I don't know exactly what the hit rate will be, and I'm also skeptical about many of the early reviews that come out in regards to autofocus performance. It takes time to learn an AF system. Going from the 7D to the 5D III took time, and I'd been using the 7D for years, and was well versed with Canon's AF system. Even after configuring the 5D III with my preferred button layout, it still took time to fully come to grips with the 61pt AF system's capabilities.

I've used the A7r and a6000. With Sony glass they perform well, and the a6000 AF system is pretty nice (once it locks onto a subject, it seems to maintain the lock and track better than my 5D III). But I have no illusions about needing to spend time with the a6300 to learn it's focus system. With proper control and a proper understanding of how the system works, I believe I can have just as good a keeper rate as if I was using a 7D II. Even Canon's system is not ideal. I had plenty of misses with the 7D...the intrinsic jitter with that 19pt AF system was high enough that I had an effective 5fps frame rate (out of the rated 8fps.) The 5D III gets maybe 4-5fps effective when you account for the bit of jitter, sometimes a little worse in less than ideal light (which is quite frequent with a lot of wildlife shooting). The 5D III has never performed on AF like the 1D X. The 7D II, which two friends of mine own, fares better, but I would say it's an effective 7-8fps most of the time sometimes better (and it sounds awesome when it's firing away at a continuous 10fps), as there is still that bit of jitter.

So if the a6300 is 11.1fps, once I learn how to use it's AF system properly, I expect to get an effective 8-9fps out of it.

I am hopeful for the coming years that the EVF's will be further improved together with tracking(and focus acquisition abilities).

Nikon only recently criticized mirrorless for their blackout , the a6300 seems to take care of this to a certain extent(it drops to 8 instead of 11 fps?).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SRcAKQQ2wV8

But since the lenses for ff/crop aren't going to be smaller I still like to see mirrorless technology implemented in a 7dII/a77II/d500 body!, It may make no sense marketing wise(not really my thing), but why not have 2 options ? a 7dII with evf/mirror , rebel with mirror / 'faster' rebel with evf, it seems the evf technology is reaching a point that nikon/canon could be seriously considering it ?, I don't think mirrorless has to be only about the reduced size (again lenses aren't getting smaller) , but if samsung can do 15fps with a 28mp nx1 , imagine the possibilities for the 7dII successor if it lost the mirror ?, as long as they leave us a choice

 

[3kramd5]

Re: Sony G-Master Lenses - 50 lp/mm

It's hard to say exactly what they mean by "50lp/mm baseline" though.

It doesn't mean anything other than they'll evaluate them at 50lp/mm. Oddly, that isn't reflected in their MTFs (theoretical, not measured).

I may just rent the GM 85 1.4 and compare it to the Batis 1.8, but on paper I'm not moved.

 

[quod]

Five years ago, if you had said to me that "In 2016, people will use [an APS-C mirrorless rig] and 'gimbal' in the same sentence", I'd have laughed at you.

Again, I'm not shooting down the idea or ridiculing it -- I'm marveling that we're even talking about it.

I once tried an EOS M with my 500/4 II + 1.4x extender on a gimbal while photographing eagles fishing at a dam. That didn't work very well. I have higher hopes for new mirrorless designs.

 

[candc]

we will have to wait and see but there are some predictions that these lenses could be the best/sharpest available. Sony is saying that present lenses are ok for 40mp but they are making these lenses for future high resolution sensors. So I guess that means 40mp is not "high" resolution. Seems they will be dropping a 100mp bomb before the mp war is over.

 

[Aglet]

you can get a bit more of a sense of what these lenses may offer by checking out the article from I-R.
good descriptions and some samples.

http://www.imaging-resource.com/news/2016/02/04/sony-raises-the-bar-we-talk-with-sonys-top-lens-designer-about-what-makes-t

This kind of lens performance is exactly why I tossed my Canon 70-200 2.8 L 2 out - it was pretty sharp, but the transition bokeh was horrid!
I'm glad this is being addressed by more mfrs. Fuji's done a good job by using very complex designs w-o aspheric elements but that tends to lose some contrast and gains in size and weight. Seems Sony's solved some of the production bugs which may allow for simpler designs but without the major compromises that have held back many other mfrs' lenses.
I'm no fan of bokeh on my Nikon 70-200/4 VR either. OTOH, my old Tamron 70-200/2.8 has a decent balance of sharpness and bokeh performance.
This Sony is likely to have much better sharpness performance and as good or better bokeh.

YUP, this is a big evolutionary step in lens production, IMO.

 

[privatebydesign]

you can get a bit more of a sense of what these lenses may offer by checking out the article from I-R.
good descriptions and some samples.

http://www.imaging-resource.com/news/2016/02/04/sony-raises-the-bar-we-talk-with-sonys-top-lens-designer-about-what-makes-t

This kind of lens performance is exactly why I tossed my Canon 70-200 2.8 L 2 out - it was pretty sharp, but the transition bokeh was horrid!
I'm glad this is being addressed by more mfrs. Fuji's done a good job by using very complex designs w-o aspheric elements but that tends to lose some contrast and gains in size and weight. Seems Sony's solved some of the production bugs which may allow for simpler designs but without the major compromises that have held back many other mfrs' lenses.
I'm no fan of bokeh on my Nikon 70-200/4 VR either. OTOH, my old Tamron 70-200/2.8 has a decent balance of sharpness and bokeh performance.
This Sony is likely to have much better sharpness performance and as good or better bokeh.

YUP, this is a big evolutionary step in lens production, IMO.

Canon are very deliberate about their lens design and take all factors, like transition areas, into account, you only need to look at their intentional portrait lenses designed for smooth transitions, like the 50 f1.2 the 85 f1.2 and the 135 f2, to see they well understand the concept and dial it in against other factors for any particular design, if you wanted a smoother 70-200 f2.8 IS then just get the MkI, that is the sole reason I have kept mine.

 

[3kramd5]

This Sony is likely to have much better sharpness performance and as good or better bokeh.

On what are you basing the likeliness? Sample images look fine, but they're nothing to write home about.

 

[quod]

I do a lot of bif shooting. There seems to be a lot of speculation about how good the Sony cameras are for this but not a lot of first hand reports. I think next time out I will give it a go with the a7rii and 400doii. I will shoot crop mode and see if the af can keep up. Ive gotten used to the camera now so I know how to change af functions and such on the fly.

I'm curious to find out how that goes. I've thought about the possibility of using a Sony for wildlife, but as you note, I haven't seen much testing of Sony cameras with bigger Canon glass.

 

[that1guyy]

Well, it's your problem.

You are the reigning example of why this site is a drag. Why don't you crawl back under that rock from which you came and stop ruining another thread with your fanboism. It's tiring. We get it. You love Canon. Whoopdeedoo! Move on and park yourself in the "I really want to get the IDXII" thread where you belong.

+1000

+ 100000000000

All he does is insults people who don't follow his narrow view on photography equipment.

 

[Neutral]

I don't think they will replace DSLR's any time soon for most (wildlife) users (ergonomics alone with long glass), but these last few years we have seen some interesting developments !, Being able to use all those nice canon lenses on sony's with peaking, and now even with (possibly reliable) af.... and maybe even some tracking capabilities...

Agreed. I do a lot of bird in flight shots, and I don't think we are there yet with mirrorless. The A6300's live-view mode for tracking sounds like a good innovation for normalizing high-speed wildlife photography between mirror and mirrorless designs. As nice as the A6300 looks on paper though, it still has issues. No joystick, unknown buffer size, small battery, not very rugged/weatherproofing, etc. I'm not worried about the size, as I can balance the lens/camera on my gimbal. The reality is that I have to do a lot of adjustments in different zone modes, and I often do them during fast-moving sequences. Without a joystick (and AF area select button), I don't see how it will work for me unless Sony's system is so smart I don't have to worry about it. Buffers are key, too. For slow moving wildlife though, the A6300 dynamic range + crop would be wonderful.

I do a lot of bif shooting. There seems to be a lot of speculation about how good the Sony cameras are for this but not a lot of first hand reports. I think next time out I will give it a go with the a7rii and 400doii. I will shoot crop mode and see if the af can keep up. Ive gotten used to the camera now so I know how to change af functions and such on the fly.

Why you want to use crop mode in camera ?
This doesn't give any benefits other than reduced image file size from the camera.
Object resolution in crop mode is the same as in FF mode (number of pixels per object projection on the sensor is exactly the same). AF speed is the same.
But using camera crop mode you loose wider angle of view and this makes it more difficult to keep very fast moving objects in frame and for longer focal length even to catch them in the frame.
I was trying both crop and FF mode on a7r2 with 100-400 m2 + 1.4 extender (FF focal length is 560mm) and found that is is better to do crop in post processing rather than limit angle of view using in-camera crop mode. With 840mm resulting focal length using in-camera crop mode it was extremely difficult to keep fast moving object in frame, sometimes just not possible, and also difficult to get object in frame first time ( find it) when it is erratically moving.
So wider angle of view in FF mode make things more easy.
On my a7r2 with 100-400m2 + 1.4 extender continious AF was working well enough even at max focal length, see example I posted above. For best results it is required to have latest FW both in a7r2 and Metabone IV adaptor ( 3.0 for a7r2 and 0.47 for Metabones).
But for still or slow moving objects in-camera crop mode is useful as allows to get smaller image file size out of the camera.