Sony's New a7RII Camera Delivers World's First Back-Illuminated FF Sensor

[Hillsilly]

...
That's one reason why I'm skeptical of the "mirrorless will take over the world" crowd. Any size advantage is lost once you get past about 100mm in lenses. If you are traveling and want to have a telephoto along, you are much better off with a DLSR. Lightest, smallest option may be the SL-1 and a Tamron super-zoom.

Sure, unless you are interested in image quality. My travel kit is a Fuji X100, an X-E1 and a 14, 35 and 60mm lens (or sometimes a 55-230mm). It takes up a small fraction of my carry-on luggage. I feel that the image quality from the Fuji cameras is better than Canon crop sensors. But that's probably largely to do with have no AA filter on the X-E1 and the quality of the Fuji lenses. To get anything similar in the Canon (or Tamron) line, you're talking FF camera with bigger lenses. And all of a sudden, you're considering which camera bag is going to be small enough to use as a carry on bag... Unless I was going to photograph a sporting event, Canon can't really compete.

You're right about the bigger lenses, though. Fuji have a 90mm coming out soon, which isn't small. Their 120mm macro looks pretty big. And their 120-400mm is even bigger. (But at the same time, they've also got even smaller lenses than what I use). I see the bigger lenses as more about locking people in to the system than providing any weight benefit. Right now, many people own Fuji cameras as a secondary system. But as Fuji fills out their lens line-up, more and more people will switch entirely. You'll see the same thing happening with Sony, too.

 

[M_S]

Looks like the one complaint I had with this camera has been at least notified, perhaps and hopefully fixed:
http://www.cameraegg.org/interview-from-sony-uncompressed-raw-is-coming-to-a7rii-via-firmware-update/

and the original article:
http://www.imaging-resource.com/news/2015/06/16/sony-qa-the-must-have-sensor-tech-of-the-future

Now I am seriously thinking with what to replace my 5D Mark 3, it will be more and more likely that it will be a Sony. Perhaps Canon has the guts to announce something by August, then I decide.

 

[Hillsilly]

There are several things wrong here.
First, as you know, removing the AA filter is bad.
Second, as you should know, that smaller camera with the smaller sensor, well, high ISO isn't going to work well at all well with that ...

No, no, no. It's all good. I've done my research. No AA filter on a Canon sensor is bad because of the standard Bayer filter. No AA filter on a Fuji is good because we have an x-trans sensor which actively destroys moire.

Also, according to Wikipedia, my Fuji sensor has a random pattern of colours. Rather than noise, it produces more of a film like grain at higher ISO, which gives your photos more character and presence. Essentially - The higher the ISO I use, the better my photos look. (In fact, and this is serious, I won a competition two weeks ago. The photo was of a piece of farm equipment, and there was a lot of noticeable "grain" in the darker areas. The judges were very impressed and wanted to know what type of film I used.....oh, hang on....that photo might have been taken with a 1DsMkii that had grain added in Silver Efex Pro. Anyway, the point is that people love grain, and that's what my Fuji has.)

 

[BRunner]

After reading interview on imaging-resource.com I wouldn't expect much from AF accuracy and speed in worse than ideal light conditions with adapted Canon lenses. It's simple physics, the phase detection pixels are just too small and noisy in comparison to SLRs dedicated PDAF chips. Here are some important quotes from the interview regarding this subject:

...in terms of autofocus, we are using a hybrid focus, so first we use the phase-detection focus to get close to the object. Then near the object, we start to use contrast AF to get a clear peak...

This answered a question I'd always had about on-chip phase-detect focusing, in that the image sensor pixels are quite small, and have to be read out quickly (meaning must have a short exposure time), to have a responsive AF system. The phase-detect pixels are also shaded, to "see" only light rays coming from one side or the other, so they're only getting half as much light as normal image-forming ones. Under low-light conditions, both factors result in a small focus signal with lots of noise on it. Contrast-detect AF is more capable under those conditions, because it's looking across a larger number of pixels to develop it's goodness-of-focus signal.

Test with Canon 2.8/24-70 L II:

Sony's Mark Weir noted that this was the first time a full-frame mirrorless camera could focus traditional SLR lenses as fast as SLRs could. He noted that in this mode, the A7R Mark II was using only phase-detect AF, vs the two-stage hybrid approach Maki-san mentioned earlier.

I did find that the camera could sometimes get a little confused when the subject was far out of focus, sometimes initially moving in the wrong direction, but when the subject was out of focus by an amount more typical of real-world situations, it was remarkably fast.

Clearly consequence of small phase-detect structures, dedicated chip with big structures can detect correct direction in significantly further OOF position.

Compare to dedicated AF chips (images and quotes from the-digital-picture.com):

Canon 7D AF chip:

Canon 1DX AF chip:

When looking at the diagonal f/2.8 sensors, it's apparent that they are much more widely spaced than the f/5.6 sensors - almost to the edges of the chip. This accounts for the longer baseline that results in greater accuracy than the f/5.6 sensors.

I'm curious, if Canon can combine the dual-pixel AF pixels into bigger virtual structures on 70D and 7DII, to overcome some of the limitations of dedicated on-sensor PDAF pixels.

 

[neuroanatomist]

Looks like the one complaint I had with this camera has been at least notified, perhaps and hopefully fixed:
http://www.cameraegg.org/interview-from-sony-uncompressed-raw-is-coming-to-a7rii-via-firmware-update/

Sure, if you read the title of the article.

[quote author=cameraegg]Uncompressed RAW is Coming to a7RII via Firmware Update ![/quote]

But if you read what the guy from Sony actually said...

[quote author=Sony]But I cannot give you a guarantee when we’re going to fix or not fix.[/quote]

I guess people hear what they want...

 

[M_S]

Looks like the one complaint I had with this camera has been at least notified, perhaps and hopefully fixed:
http://www.cameraegg.org/interview-from-sony-uncompressed-raw-is-coming-to-a7rii-via-firmware-update/

Sure, if you read the title of the article.

[quote author=cameraegg]Uncompressed RAW is Coming to a7RII via Firmware Update !

But if you read what the guy from Sony actually said...

[quote author=Sony]But I cannot give you a guarantee when we’re going to fix or not fix.[/quote]

I guess people hear what they want...
[/quote]


Lets see:
[quote author=Sony]
KM: Sony RAW is compressed, not uncompressed. But if we're getting a lot of requests for it, we should make such a kind of no-compression raw. Of course we recognize that. But I cannot give you a guarantee when we're going to fix or not fix.

DE: Right. When you're going to address that, yeah.

KM: Sure, sure. And so we recognize the customer's requirement, and actually we are working on it.

DE: So it's something that you're aware of. I'm sure that the image processing pipeline is optimized for the way that it is now, but it seems to me that, while it might involve some trading off some performance, that it could just be a firmware change. Could it? Would you be able to provide uncompressed raw as a firmware update, or would it require new hardware?

KM: Right, yes. So... not hardware.

DE: It is firmware. OK, good! I think people would be willing to accept a slower transfer time or lower frame rate in an uncompressed mode. Some people really, really want that.[/quote]

I give you credit that he first didn't say yes or no and when it will come. Afterwards he stated however: "We are working on it" and that it can be fixed via firmware. So what's it gonna be, bottle half full or empty?

 

[neuroanatomist]

I give you credit that he first didn't say yes or no and when it will come. Afterwards he stated however: "We are working on it" and that it can be fixed via firmware. So what's it gonna be, bottle half full or empty?

The sun is working on becoming a red giant and destroying the Earth. It'll take 4-5 billion years, but it's being worked on. You have been warned.

Keeping in mind Sony's support track record, if uncompressed RAW is critical to you I'm not sure it's wise to just assume it will be delivered.

 

[RobPan]

Now I am seriously thinking with what to replace my 5D Mark 3, it will be more and more likely that it will be a Sony. Perhaps Canon has the guts to announce something by August, then I decide.

I totally agree,as my 5D3 was stolen last February. Fortunately I was well insured. I want to have a replacement before the end of the year, and it might well be the a7r II if Canon will not come up with the 5D4. But high ISO is very important for me, so perhaps it will be better to wait a bit...? On the other had I can not wait until January. In the meantime I am using my wife's G10. But not in low light. Kind regards.

 

[3kramd5]

If the A7rII autofocus is good enough then you might expect Canon to go on full assault on Internet forums to keep people loyal to the brand.

Forgive me, I don't have a deep seeded history in internet forums, but is there precedent upon which to expect that Canon would start officially posting? Seems unlikely.

 

[bdunbar79]

If the A7rII autofocus is good enough then you might expect Canon to go on full assault on Internet forums to keep people loyal to the brand.

Forgive me, I don't have a deep seeded history in internet forums, but is there precedent upon which to expect that Canon would start officially posting? Seems unlikely.

Of course they wouldn't post officially! Nor would I expect it to be blatant.

They'd just have more people on forums like this talking up doubts about Sony, saying that Sony AF w/ metabones adapter isn't as good, talking about how the new rumored 5d4 will be really cool and they will wait for that, etc.

It isn't.

 

[privatebydesign]

If the A7rII autofocus is good enough then you might expect Canon to go on full assault on Internet forums to keep people loyal to the brand.

Forgive me, I don't have a deep seeded history in internet forums, but is there precedent upon which to expect that Canon would start officially posting? Seems unlikely.

Of course they wouldn't post officially! Nor would I expect it to be blatant.

They'd just have more people on forums like this talking up doubts about Sony, saying that Sony AF w/ metabones adapter isn't as good, talking about how the new rumored 5d4 will be really cool and they will wait for that, etc.

Hey Dilbert, don't forget your tinfoil hat ;D

 

[neuroanatomist]

If the A7rII autofocus is good enough then you might expect Canon to go on full assault on Internet forums to keep people loyal to the brand.

Forgive me, I don't have a deep seeded history in internet forums, but is there precedent upon which to expect that Canon would start officially posting? Seems unlikely.

Of course they wouldn't post officially! Nor would I expect it to be blatant.

They'd just have more people on forums like this talking up doubts about Sony, saying that Sony AF w/ metabones adapter isn't as good, talking about how the new rumored 5d4 will be really cool and they will wait for that, etc.

It isn't.

Hey bdunbar, next time they bring us all to HQ in Tokyo for the periodic meeting of the CIDAT (Canon Internet Disinformation Assault Team), let's go out for sake after, mmmmkay?

 

[bgran8]

Just placed my order on B&H at 11:02. I hope I'm in the first batch.

 

[bdunbar79]

If the A7rII autofocus is good enough then you might expect Canon to go on full assault on Internet forums to keep people loyal to the brand.

Forgive me, I don't have a deep seeded history in internet forums, but is there precedent upon which to expect that Canon would start officially posting? Seems unlikely.

Of course they wouldn't post officially! Nor would I expect it to be blatant.

They'd just have more people on forums like this talking up doubts about Sony, saying that Sony AF w/ metabones adapter isn't as good, talking about how the new rumored 5d4 will be really cool and they will wait for that, etc.

It isn't.

Hey bdunbar, next time they bring us all to HQ in Tokyo for the periodic meeting of the CIDAT (Canon Internet Disinformation Assault Team), let's go out for sake after, mmmmkay?

8)

 

[Tugela]

...
and the original article:
http://www.imaging-resource.com/news/2015/06/16/sony-qa-the-must-have-sensor-tech-of-the-future

This confirms my earlier suspicions after seeing the sensor dimensions (in pixels) that it was created around the ability to do good 4k video:

"Super 35mm gives the best picture quality, from oversampling 15 megapixels down to the eight-megapixel 4K size. The picture quality is better than a professional video camera."

it will be interesting to see that tested!

Samsung have moved to a copper based process and now Sony, when will Canon? Is Canon even capable of it?

This is the section that people will want to read about autofocus on the A7rII:

A7R II autofocusing with a Canon lens
One of the key features of the A7R II is that they claim it can autofocus conventional SLR lenses mounted via adapters very quickly. They showed me as an example an A7R II with a Canon EF 24-70mm attached via a Metabones "smart" adapter. Even though we were in a pretty dimly-lit conference room, the A7R II seemed extremely responsive, with very little delay between me half-pressing the shutter button and the beep of focus-confirmation. Sony's Mark Weir noted that this was the first time a full-frame mirrorless camera could focus traditional SLR lenses as fast as SLRs could. He noted that in this mode, the A7R Mark II was using only phase-detect AF, vs the two-stage hybrid approach Maki-san mentioned earlier.

I did find that the camera could sometimes get a little confused when the subject was far out of focus, sometimes initially moving in the wrong direction, but when the subject was out of focus by an amount more typical of real-world situations, it was remarkably fast. Frankly, I've very often seen pure phase-detect SLRs do the same thing when subjects were far out of focus, so am not sure to what extent the behavior I saw in the A7R II was atypical.

In any case, at least with two different Canon EF lenses I played with on the A7R II (the other was a 24-105mm L lens), AF seemed entirely fast enough for most uses. With the use of "smart" adapters to translate the focus-motor signals from camera to lens, the A7R II could well be the first truly "universal" camera body we've seen. (When I mentioned the cost of such adapters, Mark Weir pointed out that, while the groundbreaking Metabones Smart Adapters go for $400, there are competing models on the market these days, for as little as $100 apiece.)

I can relate to the lens hunting a lot for AF in dimly lit situations or if it is a long way out of focus...

Now I am seriously thinking with what to replace my 5D Mark 3, it will be more and more likely that it will be a Sony. Perhaps Canon has the guts to announce something by August, then I decide.

Sure, Canon might announce something in August/September but it won't be released until March 2016. Look at how long the lead time has been between the 5Ds/R announcement and it being available. How long do you really want to wait? 2 months or 8 months? (And even then given Canon's history, the 8 month wait is not guaranteed to deliver anything substantially better.)

If the A7rII autofocus is good enough then you might expect Canon to go on full assault on Internet forums to keep people loyal to the brand.

By then Sony will be moving the next improvements through to the consumer while Canon continues to struggle to catch up to the previous generation of technology.

 

[neuroanatomist]

By then Sony will be moving the next improvements through to the consumer while Canon continues to struggle to catch up to the previous generation of technology.

All those people who love to take pictures with bare silicon sensors will be thrilled...just thrilled.

 

[Tugela]

I think I'm logging out and clearing caches and stuff, something's acting funny on my browser. ???

If you have a Sony computer, it could be a hardware problem. Hope you can fix it yourself.

If you have a Canon computer it is probably still using one of the original Pentiums

 

[bdunbar79]

And a much, much smaller consumer base vs. Canon.

 

[3kramd5]

Just placed my order on B&H at 11:02. I hope I'm in the first batch.

bah, I was in meetings. Just ordered now.

 

[3kramd5]

If the A7rII autofocus is good enough then you might expect Canon to go on full assault on Internet forums to keep people loyal to the brand.

Forgive me, I don't have a deep seeded history in internet forums, but is there precedent upon which to expect that Canon would start officially posting? Seems unlikely.

Of course they wouldn't post officially! Nor would I expect it to be blatant.

They'd just have more people on forums like this talking up doubts about Sony, saying that Sony AF w/ metabones adapter isn't as good, talking about how the new rumored 5d4 will be really cool and they will wait for that, etc.

It isn't.

Hey bdunbar, next time they bring us all to HQ in Tokyo for the periodic meeting of the CIDAT (Canon Internet Disinformation Assault Team), let's go out for sake after, mmmmkay?

I wonder what the salary range is? Would be nice to make some extra cash trolling forums