The Empire Strikes Back - How 5Ds fits Canon's plan for a DSLR turnaround

Antono Refa said:
neuroanatomist said:
I agree that 'luring' customers away from cell phones would be good (not that anyone would give up a phone for a dSLR), but doing so with something people neither know nor care about is a poor strategy. Canon has had less low ISO DR for years and remains the dSLR market leader.

If Canon wants to fight on that front, it would have to do it with a PowerShot.

One of my cousins like snorkeling, so she has a PowerShot D series camera. That point doesn't apply to most people, but the principle does - offer a P&S that does something their smartphone doesn't, and they might buy it.

An idea: camera with fast aperture & larger sensor than a smartphone to get better IQ in low light scenarios, transfer all photos over wireless to the smartphone (screen resolution JPEGs are good enough and small enough for a quick transfer), and let people continue from there.

Make it slimmer & lighter, add a 2x zoom, a flash that's 3x the range of a smartphone and make it $200. But it must be able to transfer easily back to their smartphone.

It has to be better than a smartphone, but not an order of magnitude. Make it cheaper, make it good looking, give it a decent size screen, but understand that the average output is indeed facebook or instagram, so the sensor quality does not have to be that good. Maybe even a simple stand that allows it to do long exposure shots.

So it can take pictures of the kids, night and day (when they're moving), it looks good, it's easy to use and it syncs to their existing ecosystem via the smartphone....

5Ds will indeed help Canon but it's aim / reasons are different....
 
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Stu_bert said:
Make it slimmer & lighter, add a 2x zoom, a flash that's 3x the range of a smartphone and make it $200. But it must be able to transfer easily back to their smartphone.

It has to be better than a smartphone, but not an order of magnitude. Make it cheaper, make it good looking, give it a decent size screen, but understand that the average output is indeed facebook...

I think that idea has been tried, including a dedicated Facebook button...

powershotnfb.jpg


Was it successful?
 
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dawgfanjeff said:
IMO, if the DSLR makers continue to try to drive sales by only incremental improvements in NR and pushing features other than portability and ease of use, they may as well embrace their position right next to jazz, manual transmissions, classical music, and high end audio gear.

Especially if they're relying on tweaks to cameras that cost >$3000. Even if the new 50MP Canons are the best dslrs ever, the suggestion that the upshot will be a sufficient boost in sales to halt the overall decline seems a tad optimistic.
 
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neuroanatomist said:
Stu_bert said:
Make it slimmer & lighter, add a 2x zoom, a flash that's 3x the range of a smartphone and make it $200. But it must be able to transfer easily back to their smartphone.

It has to be better than a smartphone, but not an order of magnitude. Make it cheaper, make it good looking, give it a decent size screen, but understand that the average output is indeed facebook...

I think that idea has been tried, including a dedicated Facebook button...

powershotnfb.jpg


Was it successful?

Neuro - lol. I'm thinking smaller than that. If a device the size of my smartphone holds a camera that good with a sensor that small, how big would a little zoom (based on a slightly bigger
sensor), a flash, on sensor DPAF make it? I'd take a smartphone, remove the gsm and the like, leave it with wireless & bt, make the screen a little smaller to save on cost & the like. The challenge may well be whether you keep the OS the same (for add-on ecosystem) or not.... I think not.

It's a better camera, cheaper than a smartphone, integrates with it...

It's not a powershot or an Ixus.
 
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agierke said:
i used to shoot alot of corporate and collegiate events. there was a great deal of pressure for immediacy. myself and many of my associates resisted as we preferred to work the raw files over before releasing them. many of those jobs in my area have disappeared

"... resisted as we preferred to work the raw files over before releasing them. many of those jobs in my area have disappeared" ??? You've got to be kidding, you turned down work because you wanted perfection and your client wanted good enough ??? ???
 
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c.d.embrey said:
agierke said:
i used to shoot alot of corporate and collegiate events. there was a great deal of pressure for immediacy. myself and many of my associates resisted as we preferred to work the raw files over before releasing them. many of those jobs in my area have disappeared

"... resisted as we preferred to work the raw files over before releasing them. many of those jobs in my area have disappeared" ??? You've got to be kidding, you turned down work because you wanted perfection and your client wanted good enough ??? ???

No. I didn't say that. You made a major inaccurate leap. What I said was we resisted delivering an entire events worth of work on the spot. Yes, as professionals it is our desire to deliver the highest quality of work we are capable of. We would often spend an extra hour or two after the event sorting and processing files to meet the immediate needs of clients.

Ultimately those clients decided they didn't want to pay anything for photography coverage....zero. So they brought in student volunteers to shoot stuff with their phones and upload via Instagram. One client we used to work for decided to eliminate photo coverage of their annual weekend alumni event in favor of asking the alumni themselves to shoot it and upload via Instagram with their phones. And these clients weren't rinky dink types...one was an Ivy League university and another was one of the highest reputed medical schools in the country.

These type of clients valued immediacy so much more over anything else they completely eliminated any budget for photography at all and didn't care one iota if it was shot on a cell phone or a high megapixel camera.
 
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I see a lot of things presented here that would appeal to Very Serious Photo Enthusiasts (VSPS). The BIG problem is that the 94% are NOT VSPS! They Do.Not.Care!

Most DSLR photographers are hidebound. Most serious iPhoneographers are inventive. Some iPhoneographers are getting hired by ad agencies to shoot campaigns that will run in social media, etc. Many large companies started running 15 second Instagram Commercials starting in 2013. http://instagram.com/p/yXqhuHQirD/

You may not have noticed but there is a sea change happening ...
 
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agierke said:
One client we used to work for decided to eliminate photo coverage of their annual weekend alumni event in favor of asking the alumni themselves to shoot it and upload via Instagram with their phones. And these clients weren't rinky dink types...one was an Ivy League university and another was one of the highest reputed medical schools in the country.

These type of clients valued immediacy so much more over anything else they completely eliminated any budget for photography at all and didn't care one iota if it was shot on a cell phone or a high megapixel camera.

Doesn't this tell you something ??? Authenticity is more important to some clients than perfection.

Lee Iacocca said “Lead, Follow, or Get Out of The Way,” This is true of all business, not just Detroit.
 
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c.d.embrey said:
agierke said:
One client we used to work for decided to eliminate photo coverage of their annual weekend alumni event in favor of asking the alumni themselves to shoot it and upload via Instagram with their phones. And these clients weren't rinky dink types...one was an Ivy League university and another was one of the highest reputed medical schools in the country.

These type of clients valued immediacy so much more over anything else they completely eliminated any budget for photography at all and didn't care one iota if it was shot on a cell phone or a high megapixel camera.

Doesn't this tell you something ??? Authenticity is more important to some clients than perfection.

Lee Iacocca said “Lead, Follow, or Get Out of The Way,” This is true of all business, not just Detroit.

What it tells me is a client that no longer pays isn't a client anymore. Nothing else.

Everything is cyclacle. I have already started getting clients who are recognizing again that there is value in paying for professional photography. They got burned by going the cheap and easy route and they learned value added is value retained.

there are some unique circumstances that the photography market and digital faces right now. I think the unknown future and uncertainty about the direction we are heading causes some to grasp at straws. The disapation of the point and shoot market to me doesn't mean that dslrs must now take on the task of being all in one capable of everything in one package.

To me that is exactly the wrong direction to go in. 5d series and 1d series cameras should remain high end pieces of equipment that distinguish themselves by being the very best at doing one thing...taking quality photos. The battle for the mass market is all but lost to smart phones. I don't think camera makers will ever regain their position in that segment. But just because they lost that battle doesn't mean they should dilute their high end products so much so to please every possible segment that exists in the world of picture taking. To a serious photographer...that is truly something to fear.

In hindsight...the move camera companies should have made was to snatch up properties such as Instagram when they were in their infancy so that they could cement themselves in the mass market of consumer photography. But that's neither here nor there.

As a professional photographer, I don't worry about canon or nikons market share. I recognize that dslr makers rode a lucrative wave the past 10 years as digital developed and matured...now they will have to normalize their operations to a shrinking market. I have every confidence that both canon and Nikon will survive and continue to provide great equipment to working professionals.
 
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dolina said:
According to Sony DSLR sales (which they are technically part of) went down because of "lack of innovation".

For those who did not upgrade their camera bought in 2012 or older... does this jive?

Yes, it 100% jives with me. Sure I could use higher iso occasionally, but I have seen nothing from Canon in the body department to make me upgrade from the 1Ds MkIII. Lenses and flash are a different matter, they have made some fantastic lens and flash additions in the last 7 years!
 
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jrista said:
Has anyone considered that the DSLR market may simply have become saturated? Every market has a saturation point, where a majority of potential buyers already has one of whatever it is being offered (ILCs in this case). Canon wants their users to turn around and buy a new DSLR every 2-3 years (for high end stuff), and based on their release cycle, every 1-2 years for the low end stuff.


Economies, despite "recoveries", are still tight for most middle class workers, and have always been tight for lower class workers/the unemployed/welfare. That lowers the saturation cap, and reduces "replacement/upgrade" demand. I don't think people want to or even can replace their cameras every couple of years. There is also a threshold of quality...ILCs are pretty high quality these days, in terms of build...materials, ergonomics, fit and finish, feel, etc. I think people are less likely to replace a great device as often as a cheaper one.


I can totally see P&S sales being stolen by smartphones and other mobile devices with cameras. I can even see some of the Rebel-level sales being stolen as well, although not nearly as much. It seems more likely that the ILC market (at large, not just Canon) is reaching or has reached a saturation point. It's already a global market, unlike smartphones which still have expansion potential in newer economies like China and India (where there are potentially billions of customers), so I don't know if there is a lot of room for expansion. The market will probably settle, find some kind of equilibrium with new buyers from new people (young families, new photographers, etc.), replacement buyers looking for an upgrade or to replace a broken camera, etc.


If some disruptive new technology finds it's way into consumers hands at some point that can produce high quality images, then the ILC market would then probably slide into a long term decline. Dunno if/when that might happen, though.

+1

Sarpedon said:
It's too bad it'll be priced higher than the D810, since the D800 undercut the 5D III with a lower price and better image quality. Canon should take a page from Nikon's book here.

Regarding upgrade cycles and devaluing other product lines: both of Canon's full frame models are ready for replacement. The new 7D Mark II, which has great specs, goes for $1800. The D810 goes for $3000. So why not a new 5D for $2500-$3000? Sell the 6D II for $1800-$2000. I can't see how the market will have trouble bearing that.

did it really though? on release, yes, the straight d800 was much cheaper, but the e model was only 200 off the mk3. now it's just the d810, which is at $3300. So canon putting a 3500-4000 price tag on this is not that much more than what the competition offers - which is reasonable.

if the market is saturated, then the money is in lesser volume but more profit. I'd rather pay the canon tax now and still have canon here in a decade than pay less now then watch as canon goes bankrupt. The whole price drop thing, is just like it is in most pro photography. Yes, there is always someone out there willing to do the job for less. But if we all just keep dropping the prices, eventually there won't be enough profit to stay in business. I always notice it at bridal shows, the big booth next to the sandals booth offering the $999 package - full day coverage, a 20 page 10x10 leather album, prints and i think they even offered a few more things too. That's not a sustainable rate for most of us. Just as we should not lower our rates the second someone offers a similar service for less, canon should not undercut nikon...

the devil is in the details here though - if this new camera improves on the faults of previous canon sensors then your logic makes even less sense - price it were it should be - between $3500-4000. if it's a weak offering that just gives more mp's, then yes, a lower price should be there. But if the sensor can match or better the exmor (or, is in fact, a next gen exmor) then why in the world would this body be priced at anything other than a premium????
 
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Being a picture taker that has an interest in cameras, I think one big issue out there is too many choices.

I heard many people put their 401K money in a money market because there are too many choices.

The same holds for cameras. Should I get the 7D II, the 6D, the 5D III? Now there are new models coming... I think I will wait and see what comes next. Oh wait, new cameras in 3 months, I will wait some more... Then, I guess my 40D is good enough.

So I see: 1 D, 5D, 6D, 7D, xxD and Rebel. Current versions and new versions... Wow that is a lot choices.

Not being in marketing or the camera business Canon should have something like: 1 D (Pro), 5/6D (Serious FF), 7D/xxD(Serious), Rebel (Picture takers). Give me big differentials and I can make a decision.
 
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onajetplane said:
Being a picture taker that has an interest in cameras, I think one big issue out there is too many choices.

I heard many people put their 401K money in a money market because there are too many choices.

The same holds for cameras. Should I get the 7D II, the 6D, the 5D III? Now there are new models coming... I think I will wait and see what comes next. Oh wait, new cameras in 3 months, I will wait some more... Then, I guess my 40D is good enough.

So I see: 1 D, 5D, 6D, 7D, xxD and Rebel. Current versions and new versions... Wow that is a lot choices.

Not being in marketing or the camera business Canon should have something like: 1 D (Pro), 5/6D (Serious FF), 7D/xxD(Serious), Rebel (Picture takers). Give me big differentials and I can make a decision.

But all of those cameras aren't being offered to the same customer. It's not like the average consumer that walks into Best Buy to buy a DSLR has to struggle choosing between all of those models.

The 1DX isn't offered there. If they are walking in looking to buy their first DSLR they most likely arent looking at the over 1k cameras either. When I bought my first DSLR it was based on what I could afford at that time. So I knew I liked Canon from my Rebel film days- then purchased the DSLR I could afford.

When you look at their whole catalog it looks like a ton of models, but in reality, they are a consumer/ professional products company with a diverse offering of products. Each camera has a market.
 
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Often the top of the line will drive sales of lower end products. If Canon can create enough excitement with the 5Ds and the potentially 1Dx II (setting themselves up as market innovators) then sales of other products will follow. They can afford to reduce margins on top products (where volumes are small) to drive the rest of the business.
 
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