HarryFilm

EOS RP
Jun 6, 2016
730
175
Don't see expensive fat phones being popular. Attachable modules, attached directly or apart via wireless. You could do more than a camera attachment with such a system. Another idea, reflector lens design like that used in telescopes to get around the physics problem.

---

You are indeed CORRECT that very fat smartphones will NOT be popular! As I stated earlier, some basic research being done by certain manufacturers have indicated that 15mm (1.5 cm or a little over half an inch) is about the phone thickness limit for MOST consumers.

In terms of the focal plane issue with larger sensor requiring a greater distance between first lens element and sensor plane, this MAY BECOME A NON-ISSUE IN THE NEXT TWO YEARS once aspherical and/or compound-curve microlenses (i.e. Sony HyperHAD-like) get attached to the top of ALL photosites on an image sensor. These tiny microlenses WILL be able to reduce the number of lens elements required by allowing the extended REFRACTION (i.e. bending) of light to a more central focal point on each photosite! This super-saturates the photosites with more light rays giving a BRIGHTER image pixel that physically comes from a highly-specific area on the outer lens element. Compound curvature microlenses allows light coming from a highly specific 2D-XY area of the first lens element to be gathered and directed to a specific area on the photon sensitive imaging plane.

This means that a 9mm super-smartphone will be able to have as a large as a Full Frame sensor once the Big Boy manufacturers get on with perfecting the mathematical formulas that require that EACH microlens have a SLIGHTLY DIFFERENT curvature depending upon where said photosite is located on the sensor itself. Those photosites near the outer edges of the sensor will have a DIFFERENT high-curvature aspherical microlens than the ones in the centre which will have a flatter hemispherical microlens.

It is the computation of these microlens curvature formulas AND the manufacturing techniques required to make variable-compound curve microlenses and then place them correctly in the RIGHT 2D-XY location on any given CMOS image sensor has been an issue which is just now becoming solvable!

This is WHY 2/3rds inch, micro-four-thirds and ASP-C will be the FIRST sensor types coming out on phones that are about 12 to 15 mm thick. Only thick phones can (for now!) handle the focal plane issue of a large image sensor! For business people and tech enthusiasts who were used to the old heavy and thick Blackberries and iPhones from 10 years ago, this will NOT be an issue! They will grow ACCUSTOMED to the thicker more-ruggedized phone, ESPECIALLY when they realize it has a longer-life battery, a 4K resolution OLED display, a Qualcomm Snapdragon 855 CPU with 12 gigabytes of System RAM and 256 to 512 gigabytes (or more!) of on-board flash memory storage AND a super-low-light capable APS-C image sensor!

What's NOT to like about that!


.
 
Upvote 0

Ozarker

Love, joy, and peace to all of good will.
CR Pro
Jan 28, 2015
5,825
4,240
The Ozarks
Within the past two years, I have espoused a new breed of photographic systems that stand poised to nearly take over the entire low-end to medium range photography "business". There actually IS a magical "Island of Stability" for sensor sizes that both fit the width and height dimensions AND the focal plane allowances (i.e. thickness) for most of today's larger smartphones.

These three sensor sizes are the 2/3rds inch, Micro-Four Thirds, and the APS-C sensor sizes which WILL FIT with a bit of extra phone thickness into the common 5.5 inch to 6.5 inch display-sizes of many modern smartphone configurations. By FIT, I mean that the final smartphone will be around 9mm up to 15 mm in thickness which is more than acceptable for many users IF there is an added benefit of extra long-life batteries being put in as a side-benefit of that larger phone size.

---

Why is a larger sensor size even needed?

On MANY people's mind, having a SINGLE DEVICE that does everything from making phone calls, to surfing the web, to storing their downloaded video and music AND taking high quality stills and video of their family members, friends and vacation spots is something that is TRULY DESIRABLE! In my opinion, carrying around a Canon M6 or Powershot G7 AND a Samsung S10 is just too much, when for the mere additional cost of an extra 2 to 5 mm of phone thickness, I CAN have everything I ever wanted in a portable computing and imaging device.

Computational Photography is the NEXT killer app for all-in-one devices!

The Google Pixel-3 phone is arguably the BEST image taking phone out today! Why? Because Google is able to spend hundreds of MILLIONS of dollars to create autonomous A.I.-like software that can run on almost ANY of the CPU chips that are embedded into modern smartphones. Google has been been able to wring-out every last bit of imaging data from sensors that have photo sites as small as 1-to-2 microns in size. That is an an absolutely OUTSTANDING software achievement and Google SHOULD be commended for their efforts since they non-restrictively licence this technology to everyone who asks!

What is really missing from a modern smartphone?

A BIG SENSOR! And by big, I mean at least a 2/3rds inch up to as large as an APS-C imager which are PHYSICALLY capable of being installed in such devices. Once that occurs, ALL major camera manufacturers SHOULD be quaking in their boots when Google's A.I.-based computational photography software meets up with a big smartphone image sensor.

What is Happening Now?

Recently, I have been able to obtain access to systems that illustrate the capabilities of EXACTLY such big-image-sensor super-smartphone devices. And I should note that MORE THAN ONE MANUFACTURER has these prototypes in field testing right this moment in fall-2019. While NDA's (Non-Disclosure Agreements) preclude me from discussing too much more, I should let it be known that 2020 will be the year for BOTH announcements and actual device introductions. And the major reason for this, is that sensor costs have now been driven down for highly light-sensitive 24 megapixel (6000 by 4000 pixel) 2/3rds Inch to APS-C sizes such that their RAW BULK image sensor chip sales costs are now down to between $50 to $150 which is low enough for profitable inclusion into smartphone technology. Soon after introduction, 32 megapixel, 41 megapixel and 50+ megapixel sensors at those larger sizes will be brought down enough that within three years of introduction, larger sensors will become the default on almost ALL smartphones!

Are smartphones today really that bad?

NO! Thanks to companies like Google, Sony, Huawei, Samsung and Apple, computational photography software has done a pretty good job of washing over the limitations of a sensor that has 1 to 2 micron photosite sizes. THE NEXT LEVEL HOWEVER, is large sensor super-smartphones which are mated to just such computational photography software which will let even the most mediocre photographer take photos worth writing home about!

Is there a DOWNSIDE to bigger sensors?

There are TWO! And that is Battery Power and Phone Thickness! We just NOT going to have a full APS-C sensor on a 9mm thick smartphone and have it be able to run your phone all day like we do now. Because of the increased focal plane distance required for large image sensors, manufacturers can compensate by adding large and thicker batteries into parts of the thicker phone that are not being used by the sensor apparatus itself! This means your super-smartphone with its bigger image sensor will be between 9mm to as much as 15mm thick depending upon the sensor size included. This is caused by physics-based sensor focal plane issues that are not easily bypassed by technology!

Based upon my conversations with some premiere electronics design firms, I have found there is a sweet spot of 5200 mAh as the starting battery-size for a 2/3rds inch super-smartphone that runs all day. An APS-C goes as high as 7200 mAh and if you are taking 60 fps 4K 10-bit video that of course goes even higher in terms of milliamp-hours required of a battery!

What changes will we see to this next generation of super-smartphone?

Because of the thicker phone housing required to allow the requisite focal plane distance needed by larger sensors, we will see more powerful CPU's (i.e. Qualcomm Snapdragon 855 and better!) because there's more room for them now, a more industrial/ruggedized look to these new phones (at least initially!) and the inclusion of IP-67/IP-68 waterproofing/dust ingress standards so as to better protect the delicate innards of the larger image sensors. I expect that the modern Apple iPhone or Samsung S-10 "Fashion Phone Look" will only come later as new lens technology allows for 9mm and thinner phones to be made with the larger sensors.

Looks-wise, these will be more commercial/industrial looking phones more designed for the business person and photographic enthusiast. Price-wise we are looking at as little as $800 US for a 2/3rds inch sensor smartphone to as much as $1600 US for an APS-C sized sensor smartphone. Because these phones will TEND to have more powerful CPU's, better displays (i.e. full 4K resolution), be more rugged and of course have a large image sensor, those stated prices will not come down anytime soon!

Does it make sense for YOU, the Canon Rumors reader to buy one of these?

If you are THINKING about spending more than $400 US on ANY camera AND are thinking about getting a new phone then this is a no-brainer! Forget about that Canon Powershot G7 or M50 --- It's more cost effective to get the $800 to $1100 2/3rds inch super-smartphone and TAKE ADVANTAGE of the super-smart computational photography software that will be included. That combination WILL ALLOW YOU to take great photos AND still make phone calls and surf the internet! If you are thinking of that new D90 or used 7D2/5DMk4 then fuggediboutit! That APS-C will be so much better simply because of the high-end computational photography software mated to the large APS-C sensor! You would be getting equivalent-to or even BETTER than Full-Frame performance!

Lenses! What happens with those?

That is the giant elephant that is hanging about in the dining room! Super-smartphones WON'T YET HAVE DIRECTLY interchangeable lenses like a DSLR or Mirrorless ILC !!! What many super-smartphone models WILL HAVE though, is the ability to add an accessory cage to the phone which cradles it allowing for extra batteries, more SSD or SD-card-based storage, a full-size handgrip and a mount holder for attaching a separate lens. The phones will have built-in software settings to allow nearly automatic switching between their internal lens configurations and the external lens attachment.

For a direct EF or R-Mount permanently embedded on the phone, users would have to be comfortable with buying a super-smartphone that could be as thick as 20mm (for 2/3rds inch) to 45mm (for EF and R mount) which in most cases would be unacceptable to general consumers.

Professionals and super-enthusiasts might not care, but Ma, Pa and Grandma/Grandpa definitely WOULD! Current manufacturer research has found that 15mm seems to be the maximum acceptable smartphone thickness limit for the general consumer! The current limitation is focal plane distance related BUT I should also note that there is upcoming aspherical photosite microlens technology which MAY ALLOW for phones that have full EF/R mounts to be embedded on a phone as thin as 9mm! THAT would be the final death knell for almost ALL low-to-mid-range DSLR/MILC systems!

.

Again, what is happening today with large sensor super-smartphone technology?

IP-67/IP-68 ruggedized super-smartphones with 2/3rds inch and APS-C image sensors and larger all-day batteries ARE NOW IN FIELD TESTING modes. I would look for mid-2020 probably just after the Tokyo Olympics to see the first few announcements coming out!

.

AND to show you that smartphones have actually come a decently long way, below are some MACRO photos I recently took (September 2019) with a 2013-era Nokia 1520 smartphone which had that nice Zeiss lens in it! Now IMAGINE if I had a 2/3rds inch or APS-C image sensor and Google's computational photography software on that phone? Image HOW MUCH BETTER and MORE DETAILED those photos would be?

.

Please do comment on WHAT YOU THINK should happen for the NEXT generation of large sensor super-smartphone!

.
With all the weird capitalizations I'm beginning to wonder if you've been holding out on us. Do you happen to live in Florida? Love McDonald's?;)
 
Upvote 0

HarryFilm

EOS RP
Jun 6, 2016
730
175
With all the weird capitalizations I'm beginning to wonder if you've been holding out on us. Do you happen to live in Florida? Love McDonald's?;)
Actually, YES! we have been holding out on you! As you have seen in the last three years since I wrote my post there are NOW 2/3rds inch sensor smartphones just coming out in 2022/2023 and YES Sony AND Canon have recently separately patented ASPHERICAL micro-lens techniques upon each photosite that does get rid of the focal plane issue which lets even 9 mm thick phones have 2/3rd inch and larger sensors!

Almost everything I espoused in my original text has now come true as of January 2023!

I am PERSONALLY walking around with a 64 megapixel rugged super-smartphone! On my desk is ALSO a 32 inch 16,384 pixels by 10,240 pixels (16:10 aspect ratio) RGB Laser Emitter display that has 16 bits per RGBA channel (64-bit colour) which has Waaaay More luminance and colour resolution than the entire Adobe RGB and DCI Video gamut!

Lookup my posts from NCA (North Canadian Aerospace) where we open-sourced under GPL-3 licence terms our combined RGB-CMY-Luminance-UV-IR-X-G-band multi-spectral 16k by 16k resolution image sensor AND where we open-sourced under GPL-3 our rotating multiple-image-sensors-per-camera-body assembly!

This year in 2023, NCA will be free and open sourcing under GPL-3 licencing terms our 128-bits wide 60 GHz GaAs Combined-CPU/GPU/DSP/Vector Processor which has 575 TeraFLOPS at 128-bits per chip AND our 2 Terahertz clock speed micro-channel-cooled opto-electronic-on-Borosilicate-glass-substrate Combined-CPU/GPU/DSP/Vector Processor which has 50 PetaFLOPS per chip! (I did a lot of the GPU-design for that with hardware accelerated 2D-XY/3D-XYZ SOBEL/CANNY Edge detection and full-band 64-bit RGBA + 3D-LIDAR/RADAR Distance channels + higg-end single/multi-pixel and whole image processing functions). BOTH processors are designed and made entirely in CANADA and are Fully ITAR-Free !!!

We also will be open sourcing under GPL-3 licence terms our reversible consumptive anode/cathode process Aluminum-Sulfur batteries which have 8x the energy density over Lithium-Ion at the same volume, and they last for 25 years when tested under -60 Celcius (i.e. deep Arctic freeze!) to +100 Celcius (i.e. temp of boiling water!) temperature gradients and they can be charged from 0% empty to 100% fully charged with NO "charge memory" issues for tens-of-thousands of times for up to 25 years with no battery degradation!

A 1500 KW/hr (1.5 MW/Hr) Alsuminum-Sulfur battery will let a Ford F450 Superduty truck drive for 1600 miles (2574 km) WHILE towing 25,000 pounds (11,339 kg) of trailer and cargo AND still carry 4 heavy 250 lbs each (113 kg) worth of passengers! YES! It still takes 8 to 12 hours to charge a 1.5 Megawatt/Hr battery but that is OK when it goes 1600 MILES+ on a single charge!

AND THEN, we still have our Sheet Graphene Supercapacitor technology we developed entirely in-house which allows us to supercharge a 500 KW/hr battery (i.e. 3.75 larger than what's in the Ford F150 Lightning EV truck!) in less than FOUR MINUTES! That ALSO will be put under Free and Open Source GPL-3 licence terms! You will be able to charge your phones in mere SECONDS while have MONTHS WORTH of battery/supercapacitor full-CPU/GPU-usage time!

OH YEAH! I forgot we also make Universal Memory Chips that is a type of COMBINED super-fast non-volatile RAM (Random Access Memory) and long-term SSD Hard Drive system that you can put into ANY computer as main system memory AND as drive-based storage. We will be SELLING these though one of our subsidiaries since memory and drive storage is a BIG money maker and we will be selling 100 Terabyte main memory/drives for less than $200 USD, and multiple grades of commercial-level One Petabyte to One ExaByte Combined Main Memory/Storage Drives for a few hundreds of dollars to a few thousands of dollars USD! This COMBINED MAIN SYSTEM MEMORY/STORAGE DRIVES are also fully ruggedized to IP-69 dust/water-ingress standards and MilSpec 810-G/K high-vibration/drop/cold/freeze/heat standards!

So YES we have been holding out in y'all !!!

Now You Know!

P.S. I am located in Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada

V
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

AlanF

Desperately seeking birds
CR Pro
Aug 16, 2012
10,550
17,350
Actually, YES! we have been holding out on you! As you have seen in the last three years since I wrote my post there are NOW 2/3rds inch sensor smartphones just coming out in 2022/2023 and YES Sony AND Canon have recently separately patented ASPHERICAL micro-lens techniques upon each photosite that does get rid of the focal plane issue which lets even 9 mm thick phones have 2/3rd inch and larger sensors!

Almost everything I espoused in my original text has now come true as of January 2023!

I am PERSONALLY walking around with a 64 megapixel rugged super-smartphone! On my desk is ALSO a 32 inch 16,384 pixels by 10,240 pixels (16:10 aspect ratio) RGB Laser Emitter display that has 16 bits per RGBA channel (64-bit colour) which has Waaaay More luminance and colour resolution than the entire Adobe RGB and DCI Video gamut!

Lookup my posts from NCA (North Canadian Aerospace) where we open-sourced under GPL-3 licence terms our combined RGB-CMY-Luminance-UV-IR-X-G-band multi-spectral 16k by 16k resolution image sensor AND where we open-sourced under GPL-3 our rotating multiple-image-sensors-per-camera-body assembly!

This year in 2023, NCA will be free and open sourcing under GPL-3 licencing terms our 128-bits wide 60 GHz GaAs Combined-CPU/GPU/DSP/Vector Processor which has 575 TeraFLOPS at 128-bits per chip AND our 2 Terahertz clock speed micro-channel-cooled opto-electronic-on-Borosilicate-glass-substrate Combined-CPU/GPU/DSP/Vector Processor which has 50 PetaFLOPS per chip! (I did a lot of the GPU-design for that with hardware accelerated 2D-XY/3D-XYZ SOBEL/CANNY Edge detection and full-band 64-bit RGBA + 3D-LIDAR/RADAR Distance channels + higg-end single/multi-pixel and whole image processing functions). BOTH processors are designed and made entirely in CANADA and are Fully ITAR-Free !!!

We also will be open sourcing under GPL-3 licence terms our reversible consumptive anode/cathode process Aluminum-Sulfur batteries which have 8x the energy density over Lithium-Ion at the same volume, and they last for 25 years when tested under -60 Celcius (i.e. deep Arctic freeze!) to +100 Celcius (i.e. temp of boiling water!) temperature gradients and they can be charged from 0% empty to 100% fully charged with NO "charge memory" issues for tens-of-thousands of times for up to 25 years with no battery degradation!

A 1500 KW/hr (1.5 MW/Hr) Alsuminum-Sulfur battery will let a Ford F450 Superduty truck drive for 1600 miles (2574 km) WHILE towing 25,000 pounds (11,339 kg) of trailer and cargo AND still carry 4 heavy 250 lbs each (113 kg) worth of passengers! YES! It still takes 8 to 12 hours to charge a 1.5 Megawatt/Hr battery but that is OK when it goes 1600 MILES+ on a single charge!

AND THEN, we still have our Sheet Graphene Supercapacitor technology we developed entirely in-house which allows us to supercharge a 500 KW/hr battery (i.e. 3.75 larger than what's in the Ford F150 Lightning EV truck!) in less than FOUR MINUTES! That ALSO will be put under Free and Open Source GPL-3 licence terms! You will be able to charge your phones in mere SECONDS while have MONTHS WORTH of battery/supercapacitor full-CPU/GPU-usage time!

OH YEAH! I forgot we also make Universal Memory Chips that is a type of COMBINED super-fast non-volatile RAM (Random Access Memory) and long-term SSD Hard Drive system that you can put into ANY computer as main system memory AND as drive-based storage. We will be SELLING these though one of our subsidiaries since memory and drive storage is a BIG money maker and we will be selling 100 Terabyte main memory/drives for less than $200 USD, and multiple grades of commercial-level One Petabyte to One ExaByte Combined Main Memory/Storage Drives for a few hundreds of dollars to a few thousands of dollars USD! This COMBINED MAIN SYSTEM MEMORY/STORAGE DRIVES are also fully ruggedized to IP-69 dust/water-ingress standards and MilSpec 810-G/K high-vibration/drop/cold/freeze/heat standards!

So YES we have been holding out in y'all !!!

Now You Know!

P.S. I am located in Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada

V
You are behind the times, Harry, there is already a 1" sensor phone https://www.dpreview.com/news/38209...ro-gets-the-50mp-type-1-sensor-from-12s-ultra
 
Upvote 0

Ozarker

Love, joy, and peace to all of good will.
CR Pro
Jan 28, 2015
5,825
4,240
The Ozarks
Actually, YES! we have been holding out on you! As you have seen in the last three years since I wrote my post there are NOW 2/3rds inch sensor smartphones just coming out in 2022/2023 and YES Sony AND Canon have recently separately patented ASPHERICAL micro-lens techniques upon each photosite that does get rid of the focal plane issue which lets even 9 mm thick phones have 2/3rd inch and larger sensors!

Almost everything I espoused in my original text has now come true as of January 2023!

I am PERSONALLY walking around with a 64 megapixel rugged super-smartphone! On my desk is ALSO a 32 inch 16,384 pixels by 10,240 pixels (16:10 aspect ratio) RGB Laser Emitter display that has 16 bits per RGBA channel (64-bit colour) which has Waaaay More luminance and colour resolution than the entire Adobe RGB and DCI Video gamut!

Lookup my posts from NCA (North Canadian Aerospace) where we open-sourced under GPL-3 licence terms our combined RGB-CMY-Luminance-UV-IR-X-G-band multi-spectral 16k by 16k resolution image sensor AND where we open-sourced under GPL-3 our rotating multiple-image-sensors-per-camera-body assembly!

This year in 2023, NCA will be free and open sourcing under GPL-3 licencing terms our 128-bits wide 60 GHz GaAs Combined-CPU/GPU/DSP/Vector Processor which has 575 TeraFLOPS at 128-bits per chip AND our 2 Terahertz clock speed micro-channel-cooled opto-electronic-on-Borosilicate-glass-substrate Combined-CPU/GPU/DSP/Vector Processor which has 50 PetaFLOPS per chip! (I did a lot of the GPU-design for that with hardware accelerated 2D-XY/3D-XYZ SOBEL/CANNY Edge detection and full-band 64-bit RGBA + 3D-LIDAR/RADAR Distance channels + higg-end single/multi-pixel and whole image processing functions). BOTH processors are designed and made entirely in CANADA and are Fully ITAR-Free !!!

We also will be open sourcing under GPL-3 licence terms our reversible consumptive anode/cathode process Aluminum-Sulfur batteries which have 8x the energy density over Lithium-Ion at the same volume, and they last for 25 years when tested under -60 Celcius (i.e. deep Arctic freeze!) to +100 Celcius (i.e. temp of boiling water!) temperature gradients and they can be charged from 0% empty to 100% fully charged with NO "charge memory" issues for tens-of-thousands of times for up to 25 years with no battery degradation!

A 1500 KW/hr (1.5 MW/Hr) Alsuminum-Sulfur battery will let a Ford F450 Superduty truck drive for 1600 miles (2574 km) WHILE towing 25,000 pounds (11,339 kg) of trailer and cargo AND still carry 4 heavy 250 lbs each (113 kg) worth of passengers! YES! It still takes 8 to 12 hours to charge a 1.5 Megawatt/Hr battery but that is OK when it goes 1600 MILES+ on a single charge!

AND THEN, we still have our Sheet Graphene Supercapacitor technology we developed entirely in-house which allows us to supercharge a 500 KW/hr battery (i.e. 3.75 larger than what's in the Ford F150 Lightning EV truck!) in less than FOUR MINUTES! That ALSO will be put under Free and Open Source GPL-3 licence terms! You will be able to charge your phones in mere SECONDS while have MONTHS WORTH of battery/supercapacitor full-CPU/GPU-usage time!

OH YEAH! I forgot we also make Universal Memory Chips that is a type of COMBINED super-fast non-volatile RAM (Random Access Memory) and long-term SSD Hard Drive system that you can put into ANY computer as main system memory AND as drive-based storage. We will be SELLING these though one of our subsidiaries since memory and drive storage is a BIG money maker and we will be selling 100 Terabyte main memory/drives for less than $200 USD, and multiple grades of commercial-level One Petabyte to One ExaByte Combined Main Memory/Storage Drives for a few hundreds of dollars to a few thousands of dollars USD! This COMBINED MAIN SYSTEM MEMORY/STORAGE DRIVES are also fully ruggedized to IP-69 dust/water-ingress standards and MilSpec 810-G/K high-vibration/drop/cold/freeze/heat standards!

So YES we have been holding out in y'all !!!

Now You Know!

P.S. I am located in Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada

V
Oh .
 
  • Haha
Reactions: 1 user
Upvote 0

unfocused

Photos/Photo Book Reviews: www.thecuriouseye.com
Jul 20, 2010
6,981
5,145
69
Springfield, IL
www.thecuriouseye.com
...Lookup my posts from NCA (North Canadian Aerospace)... I am located in Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada
I am sure people will be shocked to learn that no such company exists in Vancouver or anywhere else in Canada.

Still Harry is entertaining and seems harmless even when he is off his meds.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
Upvote 0

AlanF

Desperately seeking birds
CR Pro
Aug 16, 2012
10,550
17,350
Upvote 0