There will not be an EOS 5D Mark V [CR2]

[mpb001]

What kind of shots would you be missing?

This coming from a 5D4 and EOS-R shooter.

When I'm out shooting, my camera is always on. Even in the car as I'm driving down the road, it's on.

When I see a bird/subject I want to take a picture of, I tap the trigger on my EOS-R as I'm bringing the camera up to my eye - my hand is always on the grip and my trigger finger is always on the button. By the time I get my eye on the EVF the screen is awake and ready to go. When I'm stalking a bird/subject, I tap the button every few seconds to make sure she's not sleeping and ready to go.

No problems. Any shots I miss is because I suck.

So your R camera is on all of the time? Does that consume battery power? How long does it take for the EVF to wakeup?

 

[jolyonralph]

Another small advantage of mirrorless. I slapped the 50mm f/1.2L EF on my EOS R a couple of nights ago and went out here in London to see the comet. Impossible to see with the naked eye, but using the EOS R and 50mm as a night vision device I could see the comet perfectly!

 

[keetyUK]

Jumping from 24 to 60 is quite noticeable in movies. From 60 to 120 - not really.

For anything fast moving (panning for instance) its incredibly noticeable. If your static then yeah, not so much so.

Also, don't forget there's a massive difference between sitting 5 feet away from a 55" TV or what not and having your eye pressed up against a tiny viewfinder less than 1" from your eye. Using a VR headset the faster refresh rate the smoother less nauseous the experience.

 

[slclick]

True, there is a difference between motion and stills. In stills you are generally trying to get that ONE decisive frame, but today who just snaps that ONE frame. I see the still guys editing their images in the media rooms and it looks almost like video as they scroll through sequences, because they just hold down the shutter during the whole play, essentially shooting their stills cams like its one of our video cameras and more than likely they got "the" frame in their somewhere. And in your example, it's still anticipation, because with an optical VF, "the moment" doesn't happen in the VF, it's obscured by the mirror flipping up and there is a delay between when you trip the shutter and the image is actually captured.

Something that could technically be implemented, especially if manufacturers moved to global shutter, which would easily allow all electronic shutter, they could essentially add pre-roll/pre-record that we have as an option on most of our modern video/cine cameras. They could compensate for the delay in the VF, so that when you hit the trigger, the camera is recording the frame(s) from .X seconds ago. Of course, this would effect battery life.

On occasion, I snap that one frame. I was taught early on, mostly because of film to not spray and pray. But kids, what can you do?

 

[masterpix]

actually seeing the light than the monitor is a huge deal to eye health, believe me looking at a monitor for hours with high concentration will make your glasses thick quick

Never thought about it. Thanks! I need then to save for the 1Dx now..

 

[Quarkcharmed]

For anything fast moving (panning for instance) its incredibly noticeable. If your static then yeah, not so much so.

Also, don't forget there's a massive difference between sitting 5 feet away from a 55" TV or what not and having your eye pressed up against a tiny viewfinder less than 1" from your eye. Using a VR headset the faster refresh rate the smoother less nauseous the experience.

VR headset and games in general aren't the same as frames captured on a camera sensor. In games, the actual FPS is variable and monitor acts as a fixed-frequency sampler from a variable-rate feed, so higher refresh rates in general provide smoother experience. Also an important thing is, in games each frame is 'sharp' and doesn't have a motion blur as if they were captured at a very high shutter speed (unless special effects applied during rendering). In a video stream very short exposures also cause unpleasant effect, that's why optimal video exposure is 1/2 of frame duration.

 

[Bert63]

So your R camera is on all of the time? Does that consume battery power? How long does it take for the EVF to wakeup?

For me that has never been an issue. My EOS-R is gripped and I've always been fine in terms of battery life. Of course this is in reference to how I go out and take pictures and someone else might have a completely different outcome.

I shoot wildlife almost exclusively. I have a little area in the back of my Jeep behind the driver's seat set up to carry my gear - I carry a backpack full of lenses and batteries and stuff like that, and I have two positions where two cameras can be carried securely but in such a way that if I need to I can pull over, pop open the door and grab whichever camera I want. I live on an Island so a typical day out shooting means driving the shore roads from favorite spot to favorite spot looking for opportunities.

As soon as I grab the R I tap the trigger to wake her up. By the time I get the camera to my eye she is awake. For me, there is no wake up lag. If someone waits until they have the camera to their eye to tap the trigger then they will have a different result. Ditto tapping the trigger as I stalk.

If there is any extra battery consumed by doing it this way it isn't something I've seen or been impacted by over the course of a day out shooting. If I did, I have extra batteries and a swap only takes a couple of minutes.

 

[jayphotoworks]

There are still some things that DSLRs do better for certain use cases... but the real issue is this: As the market slowly moves towards MILCs, a large part of that driven by a new generation of shooters that don't know much about OVFs or DSLRs, DSLRs will slowly become more of a niche. You may still be able to buy a DSLR down the road, but it will be expensive and not as well equipped as the equivalent MILC. It almost like the video argument among still shooters. People like myself used to be in such a small minority, but clearly this market is growing enough to the point that Canon quite loudly pushed the video specs of the R5/R6 above its stills specs. Some stills only shooters may not like it, but Canon's done their research and the product is end result of that.

If we talk about cars for example, I still like a good stick shift car, but these days it is actually hard to find vehicles that are still offered in manual transmission. Personally, it is more about the control and feel than performance because a modern ZF 8 speed shifts faster and is more consistent than any manual driver and it can even displace some DCTs that are prone to its own issues. So when it came time for car shopping, and I wanted new, I had to go with an automatic.. But the automatic also lets the vehicle gain a ton of driver assist tech which is handy in day to day use. Things like auto-follow stop and go and auto parallel space finder and parking are so handy and simply couldn't be done with a manual.

 

[SteveC]

If we talk about cars for example, I still like a good stick shift car, but these days it is actually hard to find vehicles that are still offered in manual transmission.

I understand that a manual transmission is now a good theft deterrent. Many car thieves don't know how to drive them, today.

 

[Joules]

Jumping from 24 to 60 is quite noticeable in movies. From 60 to 120 - not really.

I can only speak from personal experience with my 144 Hz g-sync Gaming monitor. And that experience is that there is a gigantic difference, especially in perceived motion blur. The monitor has a 165 Hz mode as well, and in that case I couldn't make out the difference in terms of how it feels. But higher refresh rates are not just about perception, but extend to the subconscious reaction as well.

Here's a well done video about it, if you don't want to go by subjective opinions only:


Sure, tracking action is different from gaming with a mouse in that it requires less precision but involves a greater part of the body. But unless you are only talking about movies, I would not support any claims about high refresh rates being barely noticeable.

 

[jayphotoworks]

I understand that a manual transmission is now a good theft deterrent. Many car thieves don't know how to drive them, today.

Yes, there has been some reports over the last few years. I remember one of them where a carjacking attempt happened and the thieves couldn't get the car going and bailed on foot. They were probably wondering why the car kept stalling .. but even driving a manual today isn't the same experience anymore because newer manuals have auto-brake-hold which makes getting off from a standstill on an incline so much easier.

 

[slclick]

There are still some things that DSLRs do better for certain use cases... but the real issue is this: As the market slowly moves towards MILCs, a large part of that driven by a new generation of shooters that don't know much about OVFs or DSLRs, DSLRs will slowly become more of a niche. You may still be able to buy a DSLR down the road, but it will be expensive and not as well equipped as the equivalent MILC. It almost like the video argument among still shooters. People like myself used to be in such a small minority, but clearly this market is growing enough to the point that Canon quite loudly pushed the video specs of the R5/R6 above its stills specs. Some stills only shooters may not like it, but Canon's done their research and the product is end result of that.

If we talk about cars for example, I still like a good stick shift car, but these days it is actually hard to find vehicles that are still offered in manual transmission. Personally, it is more about the control and feel than performance because a modern ZF 8 speed shifts faster and is more consistent than any manual driver and it can even displace some DCTs that are prone to its own issues. So when it came time for car shopping, and I wanted new, I had to go with an automatic.. But the automatic also lets the vehicle gain a ton of driver assist tech which is handy in day to day use. Things like auto-follow stop and go and auto parallel space finder and parking are so handy and simply couldn't be done with a manual.

I agree with your first part and Nikon's commitment to film bodies past the digital revolution shows just that. It will exist but it will be high end, very expensive and not for everyone. Kind of sad.

 

[dtaylor]

From the user's perspective, it's a single device, unlike 4ex desktop PC + monitor. So with EVFs, as a user I don't expect hidden latency behind the claimed 60 or 120 Hz refresh rates.

You seem to be trying to say that X can't be true because people don't expect X. But physical reality doesn't care about what you expect.

Moreover, technically the R5/R6 should be able to provide a minimal latency - that is, display the captured image at the nearest frame update in the EVF, thus producing the minimal possible latency.

I can just about guarantee you latency is longer than frame refresh. It may or may not be noticeable while you're not shooting stills depending on the latency and on subject/camera movement. But it's quite relevant when the system falls behind due to bubbles introduced while capturing still frames.

Blackout/freeze in the EVF shouldn't be longer than exposure time + readout + time till the nearest EVF update.

The system has to reset the sensor, expose, readout, process, and deliver a frame to the display buffer. Kinda doubt that's happening in 8.3 ms. Once again: latency and throughput are separate things, and after a still shot there is a bubble in the pipeline.

And even if latency was 1 ms, that bubble would still exist. The image would just be closer to reality once the bubble was out. The only way around this is e-shutter + a sensor that can readout at 120 fps with interspersed full resolution frames at the advertised stills rate (say 20 fps) + a display pipeline that can handle 100 EVF + 20 full readouts every second. Latency could still be greater than 8.3 ms, but you would never introduce bubbles into the pipeline, which is most of what people are noticing. Only problem with this is that most people most of the time are not going to use e-shutter due to rolling shutter effects.

 

[Michael Clark]

I don't get this comment. First, this was more how Canon introduced the EF mount, less about the technical details. Second, you can adapt FD lenses in general.

Were you around back then? This is nothing like the way Canon introduced the EF system and more or less said, "Take it or leave it."

FD lenses are in no way "fully compatible" with the EF mount in any shape or fashion the way EF lenses are seamlessly compatible with the RF (and EF-M) mount(s).

The lens and camera could not communicate aperture information at all. Stop down metering was problematic and it was simpler to just use an external light meter in most shooting scenarios.

The rare adapter, which Canon only made available via CPS, introduced additional glass that reduced image quality and acted as a 1.1X teleconverter. Don't forget to compensate for the reduced f-number when manually setting the aperture on the lens. All values on the aperture ring had to be converted to the slightly higher f-number each was as a result of the TC.

The rare adapter, which could only be bought directly from Canon via CPS, could only be used on specific telephoto lenses. There was no "official" way to adapt any other FD lenses to EOS bodies.

 

[Fischer]

We will see if this rumour sticks or not. However, when Canon went with the EOS mount they made a quick, hard cut-off leaving everyone who did not move across behind while Nikon made their system "legacy-proof." If this is way Canon wanta to go again it makes perfect sense that Canon has released two great EF to RF adapters. People can keep their lens investment that lasts very long, while Canon still get a rapid transition of their Camera production and development from EOS to R-models allowing them to focus on a single line of operation while trying to make the RF line of lenses different than the EF.

 

[Michael Clark]

Canon's line up for the next few years might be:

• Two full frame DSLRs -- 1Dx III and the new amalgamation;
• Six full frame mirrorless -- RP, R, RA, R6, R5 and R5S (High Megapixel) Sorry, but if there is no room in the market for separate 5D and a 6D bodies, there probably isn't room for both an R5 and an R1 now. It might be a possibility around the time of the 2024 Summer Olympics, but honestly, if the R5 delivers, I'm not sure what an R1 gets you except a bigger battery. I expect that eventually they will drop the R and or the RP, but at this point they can just leave them in the lineup;
• A range of M bodies, with the M7 sitting at the top of the line as the replacement for the 7D (Canon wants to get out of the business of mixing full frame and APS-C lineups and an M version of the 7D makes the most sense);
• 90D with future models being badged as 90D Mk II, etc.

This sort of a lineup would see Canon through for the next several years as they watch the market and determine whether or not there will be a smaller but stable demand for DSLRs or if the demand is going to go away.

Canon wants to get out of the business of mixing an affordable, compact system with only a few 61mm diameter lenses aimed at consumers who want nothing more than an affordable, compact camera with a few affordable, compact lenses with a different and much broader ranging system of bodies and lenses that are marketed toward and appeal to enthusiast photographers and professional photographers.

 

[Michael Clark]

My 5D Mk III is not going anywhere, anytime soon. I still have two 5D Mk II as backups - one with 300K shutter activations.

I didn't jump to the 5D Mk IV, as it just wasn't the big step I wanted. I started getting interested in the 1D X Mk II. Real interested. Then the 1D X Mk III arrived, but with only one option for memory cards. Sort of made me think the 1D X Mk II was the camera upgrade for me. I suspect Canon wants more 5D Mk X users to consider the 1D X line.

I gotta think total budget, as I'll need a new desktop computer in the upgrade.

For myself, who spends the majority of shooting time under flickering artificial lighting at small college and high school level (or below) stadiums/ball fields and gymnasiums, the difference between the 5D Mark III, which did not offer flicker reduction, and the 5D Mark IV, which did, was as revolutionary as when the 7D Mark II introduced it in 2014.

Prior to the release of the 7D Mark II I had sworn off on ever buying another APS-C camera body. The 7D was that disappointing to me.

Flicker reduction totally changed that.

In other areas as well the 7D Mark II was everything I had expected the 7D should have been but was not. It wasn't perfect. (No camera is, no matter what the marketing departments say when they introduce a new model that miraculously solves every photographic problem known to man in the same way the last new model did, at least the last one did until the new model came out and suddenly the older model had all kinds of shortcomings that the newer model fixes.) But it ticked off a lot of the boxes that the 7D should have but didn't.

Unfortunately, due to budget constraints related to family health issues and the associated financial considerations, I was not able to include a 5D Mark IV in my tool set until 2019. Even apart from flicker reduction, it was a more significant upgrade from the 5D Mark III than the press and reviewers had implied, at least for the kinds of still imaging I do. (Video performance is not a consideration for me when comparing stills cameras.)

 

[Michael Clark]

Not talking about tracking, just pure image quality from an EF lens on the R5. There are several videos with raptor tracking that look fairly impressive, but they're probably with RF lenses.

Until the 100-500/4.5-7.1, 800/11, and 600/11 are actually out in the wild, anything shot at more than 240mm was not RF. Yes, a handful of reviewers have had the new f/11 lenses for a few days, and Canon Ambassadors had them for a while a little earlier, but most YouTubers are still waiting on them.

 

[Michael Clark]

If there is an R1, and if it is intended to replace the 1DX, then it should be on a four-year cycle and hence the 2024 Olympics. Maybe they will launch it early and have it ready for the 2022 Winter Olympics, but 2021 seems hopelessly optimistic at this point.

I think Canon's original plan was to introduce an R1 just in time for the 2022 Winter Games, so it would probably have been rolled out in late 2021.

The disruption caused by the SARS-CoV-2 virus has probably pushed it back to the 2024 Summer Games.

 

[unfocused]

Canon wants to get out of the business of mixing an affordable, compact system with only a few 61mm diameter lenses aimed at consumers who want nothing more than an affordable, compact camera with a few affordable, compact lenses with a different and much broader ranging system of bodies and lenses that are marketed toward and appeal to enthusiast photographers and professional photographers.

Well, neither one of us is going to convince the other. We will just have to wait and see. I'd prefer an R7 to an M7, but I'm not optimistic that will be the case. Hoping that in 2021 we will find out who is right and we don't have to wait until 2022. Or, worse yet, that we never find out because Canon never makes either one.