Thoughts on the Canon EOS R roadmap

[Kit.]

IIRC Bluetooth specs are controlled by the phone companies who do not wish to afford Camera companies an easy way of uploading files to the phone.

As far as I know (and I know a lot), there is nothing in Bluetooth specs that would specifically preclude Canon from uploading RAWs. Bluetooth just doesn't have enough bandwidth for it to be practicable. It would take several minutes to transfer one file.

 

[Kit.]

Rebel's have never been full frame, always APS-C from the inception. 6D is the closest thing to a full frame Rebel.

That's not true.

The first EOS Rebel was full frame.

The one that I owned was not even the first model in the Rebel line. It was the 7th. Rebel G.

 

[JBSF]

I use 7D and 7D2 with longer lenses, including 100-400 mark 2, to photograph birds and insects. Tens of thousands of photographers use those body/lens combinations for nature and sports, and anybody who thinks they will ultimately be required to mount lenses of that size on an fiddly little M body (I own one) has never used one of those lenses. I'm guessing that Canon either will continue to make DSLRs to satifsy that niche, or they will make an APS-C R body for the purpose. Otherwise all of those photographers will be forced to buy a high-MP FF R body for twice the price of a 7D in order to get enough pixels on their subjects to be able to crop. I'm not sure that would be a wise business decision. I am satisfied with the 7D2 for now, but I would like to see an APS-C R body if for no reason but to eliminate the need for AFMA.

 

[dba101]

And how many shots do we miss while watching all those Sony users, hmmm?

The clue is in my comment

 

[DVaNu]

With its first EOS R iteration, Canon sent out a clear message: "We're maybe hopping a bit behind but this is what the future has to bring". Especially with the new RF mount and lenses, they were spot on and it looks promising. This first model was certainly not what some might have expected of it (me included) but it was good and advanced enough to convince not only new Canon customers but quite some enthusiasts and (semi-)professionals to give it a shot and more over to be amazed by the lenses and some of some features of the EOS R. In my opinion Canon will for now follow the money as suggested in the article and will release some sort of "lower value" entry level model (the original EOS R being a "higher value"entry level) to expand the R and RF system client base. A high level pro R "flagship" model(1Dx equivalent) will and should by all means take much more time to be developed, tested and released to make sure it will have the most advanced and fine-tuned mirrorless technology available BUT.... I think that some might share my opinion when I say that Canon should and should really not wait too long to release an "all-round" Pro R model (between entry level and a high level Flagship model), shaped at the level of the 5DIV and 5Ds(r) and aimed at the serious enthusiast and professionals, looking to adding an equivalent mirrorless to pair up with their existing DSLR 's and/or to replace some DSLR's all together. This body should by all means be aiming at becoming a true Sony competitor or at least be the model that puts Canon completely on track on the mirrorless market, which unfortunately is not the case yet. Features that should be included in this all-round Pro model: Double card slots, IBIS, higher FPS (on all levels - but not as high as current 1Dx), 45+ MegaPix sensor, better DR, non cropped 4K video, improved ergonomics with at least a joystick of some sort or an improved version of the touch bar. Features such a more advanced body with integrated battery grip, even higher FPS, higher MegaPix, 8(K vid?), completely redesigned AF system, some new features, should be kept for the high level Pro model to be released as the last iteration of their mirrorless offer.
Of course this is what I'd like to see and what make sense in my opinion but I'm sure Canon has already planned out their path and offer for the next 3 to 4 years to come.... and good that we don't know too much about it otherwise it would completely spoil the fun of CR and this forum, wouldn't it? .....

Time will tell, I guess.....

 

[6degrees]

People who want a less expensive Canon mirrorless.

Canon needs to deliver R body to match RF 50mm F1.2, otherwise no serious pro will buy RF 50mm F1.2, not even talking about to compete with Sony a7r3.

 

[Bob Howland]

That's not true.

The first EOS Rebel was full frame.

The one that I owned was not even the first model in the Rebel line. It was the 7th. Rebel G.

Are you referring to this: https://global.canon/en/c-museum/product/film190.html ? If you are, I should point out that this is a film camera and (almost) everybody else on this site is referring to DSLRs.

 

[c.d.embrey]

My first Canon camera was a full frame Rebel, by the way.

I bought my son a Full Frame Film Rebel when he was shooting for his school's newspaper. Today he uses a Samsung 10S + instead of Canon IL Cameras.

 

[Nelu]

That's not true.

The first EOS Rebel was full frame.

The one that I owned was not even the first model in the Rebel line. It was the 7th. Rebel G.

You're comparing apples to oranges here. He was clearly refering to digital cameras, not film cameras.
Of course, any 35mm film camera was a "full frame" camera but this doesn't have anything to do with the topic: we're talking about digital cameras, be they DSLR's or mirrorless.

 

[Yasko]

I see the logic of consumer grade FF introductions to capture the market but the thing that doesn't make sense is the opening salvo of big heavy pro glass without a body for pros. No informed amateur is going to dive on a camera body that is supported with 2-3K lenses. The whole concept of mirrorless for me is size and weight and that's why I got a M5. I think Canon should have launched the R system with something on the order of the 5D Mark IV with continuous silent shutter, dual card slots, and a reasonable frame rate. A lesser equipped R body may make cents but doesn't make sense IMO.

Again, if you want a FF mirrorless with sharp and large aperture lenses, you will end up with a prime in the 35-50 mm region and f/2-2.8 or you will end up with large and heavy glass. That‘s just not scaling this heavily with the flange distance.
Still, having a pancake prime with a mirrorless is an intriguing option! You just have to know why that‘s the only option to be really compact...
Of course a small aperture built-in kit lens FF camera would be possible, but still not the zoom range as with smaller cameras (larger image circle on FF) and the shame of having a FF sensor without being able to change the lens .

 

[Pape]

I am hoping canon made breakthrough how expand aps-c density sensor to full frame and how make it cheap .
So they kind of putting 7d and 5dr to same body , aps-c when on crop mode.
Without weather sealing and partly plastic body so price would be like 1000$
Time to make that mirrorless is cheaper claim as true

Hey i am allowed to dream

 

[Ladislav]

You cannot compare employee price discounts to full retail. I used to work for REI (outdoor shop in USA) we bought prodeal at 25-35% of retail cost or maybe at most 50% on some items like bicycles. That's almost like saying become CEO of Canon and they give you cameras for free. Or as Bill Nighy as Billy Mack said in Love Actually, “Hiya kids. Here is an important message from your Uncle Bill. Don't buy drugs. Become a pop star, and they give you them for free!”

I don't care that much about employee discount - that was just example showing the margin. I compare HDEW in UK, which is a UK based business where you can collect in person so it is not some invisible eshop. They don't seem to take their stock from Canon UK or Canon EU but they provide "standard 1-year manufacturers warranty" whatever that means and folks have previously mentioned that invoicing is also not an issue. You still get many Canon products up to 30% cheeper than in official retail. So what are we paying for those additional 30%.

Example. In November 2017 I bought 5DIV for £2269 while in retail it was £3299. It is still £2999 in retail while HDEW currently offers it for £1729. I don't see what I get for those additional £1200? I may get additional year or two of warranty and option to go for finance instead of pay everything immediately but that is not worthy that unbelievable price hike.

And there is no problem registering products from HDEW for CPS.

Edit: Now I see that HDEW gives 3 years warranty for 5DIV as well.

 

[Kit.]

Are you referring to this: https://global.canon/en/c-museum/product/film190.html ? If you are, I should point out that this is a film camera and (almost) everybody else on this site is referring to DSLRs.

You're comparing apples to oranges here. He was clearly refering to digital cameras, not film cameras.
Of course, any 35mm film camera was a "full frame" camera but this doesn't have anything to do with the topic: we're talking about digital cameras, be they DSLR's or mirrorless.

Maybe you should have read the comment he/she was answering to?

I bought my son a Full Frame Film Rebel when he was shooting for his school's newspaper. Today he uses a Samsung 10S + instead of Canon IL Cameras.

I bet he is also a bit older.

An entry-level ILC is more of a status symbol than of an image capturing device. Of course, it also captures better images, at better range of scenes and lighting conditions, with better manual controls, but that's what makes it a status symbol. It would be unlikely to happen if it were just a black brick.

 

[Viggo]

Lack of IBIS limits it for me

The lack of IBIS does not make the 50 a waste with the R. It might be more applications where you can shoot with that combo, but what I meant is that you can absolutely get the most out of the 50 when using the R, no other body will make that lens better than the results you get with the R.

 

[Viggo]

The new Olympus seems to transfer raw via Bluetooth?

 

[jolyonralph]

If Canon are to produce an APS-C EOS R body they may decide to bundle it with a lens that is technically a FF lens but is only really of high(ish) quality within the APS-C area - something like a slowish RF 17-50. The lens would technically work on a FF body but with more pronounced optical issues towards the edges. With in-body lens corrections this wouldn't be such a big issue for many.

Such a lens would be light and cheap, would work perfectly well for the APS-C bodies and, within limitations, would work OK as a cheap wide zoom for those who then upgrade to FF.

When Canon introduced their APS Film cameras they did exactly this. The EF 22-55mm lens for the APS film cameras was a full-frame lens (bear in mind that the crop for APS film was less than the crop for APS digital though)

 

[dak723]

....
An entry-level ILC is more of a status symbol than of an image capturing device. Of course, it also captures better images, at better range of scenes and lighting conditions, with better manual controls, but that's what makes it a status symbol. It would be unlikely to happen if it were just a black brick.

Oh, yes, people are really impressed when you buy the cheapest ILC. "Hey, everybody, look at my Rebel!"

No, people buy expensive things for status.

It should be noted that the biggest difference in low end and higher end cameras is in more rugged build quality, weather sealing, and additional specs and options. The IQ is usually the same or very similar - even comparing APS-C and FF. I've owned both, taken the same shots with both, and if you shoot in any kind of daylight (even sunset light), and don't print large, the photos look identical. So that entry level camera is an inexpensive way to take high-level photos with an ILC, not a status symbol, in my opinion.

 

[criscokkat]

??????? What ???????????

yeah, it wouldn't really save much, and you'd take away the upgrade the body at anytime argument. That's why I think just using consumer grade full frame is more likely, even if they use a sensor between 1.2 and 1.4 reduction and call it aps-h.

 

[criscokkat]

I am hoping canon made breakthrough how expand aps-c density sensor to full frame and how make it cheap .
So they kind of putting 7d and 5dr to same body , aps-c when on crop mode.
Without weather sealing and partly plastic body so price would be like 1000$
Time to make that mirrorless is cheaper claim as true

Hey i am allowed to dream

I wonder if that's reasonably possible? I'm sure there's some shooters who would love a 5Ds like sensor that could only do 3 fps at full size but would do 10fps if you shrunk it down. There's be less data coming off and thus a lessor amount of processing power/bandwidth needed. I'm sure there are plenty of users who would pay a premium price to do both.

 

[tinaundmaxim]

Seems plausible, and sad the same time. Of course, Canon will milk the cashcow with cheaper cameras a bit longer. But honestly, I think Canon is moving more and more to be an entry-level camera manufacturer. Don´t get me wrong, Canon has some fine gear, but deploying new iterations of the same APS-C cameras with some few more MPix isn´t the kind of thing that defines a "class leading" camera manufacturer anymore. It´s things like the implementation of DualPixel Autofocus (which is really, really awesome on a 5D Mark IV). It´s things like Eye-Tracking in Servo... or two card slots

So my hope is still up for a mirrorless 5D Mark IV equivalent with IBIS in 2019. A pro model without IBIS would be a big disappointment. Every one else has it. It would be like building a car and just don´t fit in seatbelts.