Update on the Canon USA vs Grey Market Retailers Legal Action

[takesome1]

Nicely put, Martti!

Here's some more considerations to add to the mix which I think have simply failed to occur to people:

People on commission are at war with one another. They wish to increase their own sales and not support competitors in winning more sales and diminishing their own success. Sometimes these people are more like massive, multi-national corporations which in turn shift the products of their international parent-companies. I'm not certain of the particular titles of the territory-based company divisions but say, for example, they were to go by 'Conan ASIA', 'Conan USA', 'Conan UK', 'Conan AUS' etc. One has to wonder:

If all divisions have the same shiny bricks to sell yet 'Conan ASIA' are working with a territory where they are expected to sell for less than the other territories' divisions are authorised to sell them for, and one day they get a call from 'Conan USA' saying "we've found bajillions of your bricks selling in our town! Put loads of work and money into making this not happen so that you lose bajillions more future sales!"

Q) What is the liklihood that 'Conan ASIA' are going to be super-motivated to play along?

'Conan AUS' also get upset that even the high-street stores start buying in imports from 'Conan ASIA' territory, due to the frankly financially vile, abusive nature of the rules which 'Conan AUS' are at liberty to follow. 'Conan AUS' threaten Mr Jaybilly High-Five with threats to no longer supply them with officially licenced Shiny Bricks, but Mr High-Five is all like "No worries, bro, my Asian brothers are hooking me up and we're getting way more sales at much fairer prices for all involved... Bluff away, as scary as you are, business is pretty sweet right now!"
No doubt 'Conan AUS' get on the phone to 'Conan ASIA' but they're all like "LOL yeah, sorry, gotta' get to the bank! Put it in an email and Steve will get back to you super-soon!"

This post is a prime example why these things are best left to the legal system and attorneys. It also has very little to do with the actual legal action this thread is talking about.

Also, Conan USA was replaced when Jay Leno returned. He received a huge amount of cash because of that breach.

 

[Maximilian]

...
'Conan ASIA', 'Conan USA', 'Conan UK', 'Conan AUS' etc. One has to wonder:
...

I wonder that the rightholders of "Conan, the Barbarian" didn't insist here ...

 

[1kind]

It's more about protecting the brand. Someone who bought a gray market and noticed that the serial is different or the warranty is not valid because its gray market, the consumer will point at Canon since it's their product. Consumers rarely will go to the seller and if they do, the seller will just push it and say its Canon's fault.

Another reason why is because of sales. When you buy gray market items, its not counted towards Canon USA, Nikon USA, etc. sales channel as there is no way to track it. This also affects international as well. If it's coming from Japan, Hong Kong, Europe and it's bought elsewhere, it won't count towards their sales. Each country has their own sales, profit margin, etc. Yes, this also affects brick and mortars such as B&H, Adorama and mom and pops. I know B&H use to sell gray market items but I don't see any listed anymore (unless I'm missing it). Manufacturers push you to buy from authorized dealers for a reason...they are legitimate and you're covered via warranty but at the same time, they are "partners".

This goes back to brand but it falls under counterfeits. Not only do you have batteries, there's also flashes and grips that has popped up as counterfeits. I have yet to see cameras or lenses but swapping of serials is just as bad. If they are removing lenses from kits and selling them separately, for all we know, they could be doing the same for batteries. Removing the OEM batteries, selling them separately and swapping it for counterfeit batteries.

 

[martti]

So basically the customer is taking a certain risk while getting a 15 to 20 per cent discount.
Sounds fair to me. Professionals in many countries get to buy their equipment free of VAT which brings the price of the legal item close to the grey market price. Of course they'll opt for the official seller.

The manufacturers could easily block the grey market but they don't want to. They want their products to move and to a certain extent, they do not much care of the methods. Interesting to see, though what the result of the legal action will be and how it will change the market behavior.
I hear Far East eBayers cheering.

 

[Khufu]

It's more about protecting the brand. Someone who bought a gray market and noticed that the serial is different or the warranty is not valid because its gray market, the consumer will point at Canon since it's their product. Consumers rarely will go to the seller and if they do, the seller will just push it and say its Canon's fault.

Another reason why is because of sales. When you buy gray market items, its not counted towards Canon USA, Nikon USA, etc. sales channel as there is no way to track it. This also affects international as well. If it's coming from Japan, Hong Kong, Europe and it's bought elsewhere, it won't count towards their sales. Each country has their own sales, profit margin, etc. Yes, this also affects brick and mortars such as B&H, Adorama and mom and pops. I know B&H use to sell gray market items but I don't see any listed anymore (unless I'm missing it). Manufacturers push you to buy from authorized dealers for a reason...they are legitimate and you're covered via warranty but at the same time, they are "partners".

This goes back to brand but it falls under counterfeits. Not only do you have batteries, there's also flashes and grips that has popped up as counterfeits. I have yet to see cameras or lenses but swapping of serials is just as bad. If they are removing lenses from kits and selling them separately, for all we know, they could be doing the same for batteries. Removing the OEM batteries, selling them separately and swapping it for counterfeit batteries.

If there's one post on the internets which doesn't contain pictures of kittens yet still qualifies as being "cute", well, I think we may have found it!

 

[jeffa4444]

MAP doesnt exist in Europe its illegal under EU laws. Its not illegal to import anything from another country and sell it locally cheaper than national dealers etc. but the official distributors increasingly will not cover the warrenty which is normally covered by the importers albeit with no certainty.
I buy all my equipment through UK authorised resellers buying a camera & lenses are big investments which I want covered locally in the event of any fault and whilst so far Ive not had to send anything to Canon under warrenty I have had to for Olympus which they dealt with quickly.

 

[Khufu]

Regarding the latest (and earlier) CR feed update and CR's vocal stance on MAP:

Good on you, CanonRumors! Many of us appreciate you adding your support to the anti-abuse cause... I imagine it's a brave move for guys in your position to go expressing allegiance with "the enemy" but... You're helping put them in their place and that is AWESOME

 

[bmwzimmer]

Canons warranty is pretty lame anyways. If it was 2 years for XXD cameras and up and 3 years for L lenses. Then for sure Most people currently buying grey market would not risk it.
For example, Tamron. Who in their right mind would buy a grey market tamron without the many 6yr warranty?

 

[tr573]

Canons warranty is pretty lame anyways. If it was 2 years for XXD cameras and up and 3 years for L lenses. Then for sure Most people currently buying grey market would not risk it.
For example, Tamron. Who in their right mind would buy a grey market tamron without the many 6yr warranty?

I bought a gray 24-70VC. It came with a 7 year Mack warranty, and was 500$ cheaper than US retail.

 

[RustyTheGeek]

Canons warranty is pretty lame anyways. If it was 2 years for XXD cameras and up and 3 years for L lenses. Then for sure Most people currently buying grey market would not risk it.
For example, Tamron. Who in their right mind would buy a grey market tamron without the many 6yr warranty?

This is a good point and what I've thought for years. When comparing new vs. grey or used, the short and limited 1 year warranty that Canon offers for gear that can sometimes cost more than a car (which comes with several years of warranty BTW) is a good justification for not buying new or from a authorized dealer.

A 1 year warranty is essentially Canon saying it will fix DOA or faulty new items but after you've used it few months it's on your dime.

The notable exception to this is when Canon fixes a common defect for free for years. (Like the 5D mirror defects, etc.)

 

[weixing]

Hi,
Hmm... may be the grey market had eaten in Canon USA sales and profit or may be local retailer had a hard time selling and complaint to Canon USA??

Anyway, if Canon USA want to discourage grey product, just indicate that full charges (higher) will applied for servicing and service will be in lower priority (take longer) queue.

Have a nice day.

 

[RustyTheGeek]

Hi,
Hmm... may be the grey market had eaten in Canon USA sales and profit or may be local retailer had a hard time selling and complaint to Canon USA??

Anyway, if Canon USA want to discourage grey product, just indicate that full charges (higher) will applied for servicing and service will be in lower priority (take longer) queue.

Have a nice day.

Local camera retailers, esp brick and mortar stores, mom & pops, etc have been complaining about grey market for decades. This is nothing new. Online sales used to be called "mail order". Nothing has changed except the way the stuff is promoted and purchased. Instead of paper catalogs we browse a website. Things happen a lot faster now due to instant ordering and fast shipping. This also applies heavily to stereos from Japan. And most of the low priced grey market action has always centered in New York.

 

[tomscott]

MAP doesnt exist in Europe its illegal under EU laws. Its not illegal to import anything from another country and sell it locally cheaper than national dealers etc. but the official distributors increasingly will not cover the warrenty which is normally covered by the importers albeit with no certainty.
I buy all my equipment through UK authorised resellers buying a camera & lenses are big investments which I want covered locally in the event of any fault and whilst so far Ive not had to send anything to Canon under warrenty I have had to for Olympus which they dealt with quickly.

But at the end of the day your paying 1/3 more for the same product. Like you say you've never had a problem? Because the product is good. I use my gear professionally and hammer it ive never had an issue within the first year. Canon gives you a 1 year warranty is that worth 30%? its insane on a £3000 camera its £1000 if you can afford that then fine.

The last camera I bought was a 7DMKII which was £800 £1299 in the UK that's 60% increase. Madness.

The one time I had an issue with a lens (70-200mm MKII) I bought it through digital rev and they sent it to CPS under its 1 year warranty it was picked up repaired and returned to me for nothing. Excellent service.

When it comes to Canon gear its a no brainer because in my experience its always sees out its warranty and if it doesn't its most likely through abuse in my case shooting motorsport in the rain or you have to be really unlucky.

If its third party then I will buy from a UK store but I bought a tammy 150-600mm in Sept 2015 from a reputable UK dealer. Since they came out 18 months ago there have been 3 firmware updates because of AF problems, all pre Sept 2015 which is why I bought it to ensure it would have the firmware and I wouldn't have to send it away. The lens turns up and its a first iteration lens which had blatantly been opened and used returned and put back into stock and had non of the firmware updates. Returns within a month are fine, I ring up tell them about it and they refuse to take it back without a restocking fee I said that is unacceptable that they have sold me an older product. After a week of back and forth they finally allow it. Just a crap service.

Just because you take the high road of authorised dealer doesn't mean you get the service you pay for.

Even with me claiming my 20% vat back at the end of the year the import is still cheaper, you get a worldwide 1 year warranty. If you buy from jessops etc you have to pay another £150 for a 3 year warranty its like milking a cow never ends.

For Christmas this year there is more deals than usual companies are desperate to sell because I'm sure they've had a poor year. The 7DMKII is currently £250 reduced with cash back scheme with an extra 10% off. Still in 2 weeks they will be back up to £1299 which is still a 60% increase.

To me it depends whether you can afford to pay all this extra for no reason. Its the same product from the same factory one is 30+% more expensive. No brainer IMO.

I buy all of my stuff grey market and will continue to do so, makes my expenses considerably cheaper and means I make more money to do other things in my life...

 

[RustyTheGeek]

Tom, I live in the US but I echo your sentiments. I honestly wish the grey market didn't exist and that all prices were equal across the board. (Lower, not higher of course.) It's simpler for everyone. I hate to see my local camera store that has been there for decades (and is a wonderful place) suffer loss of sales due to unfair competition from grey market and online. Their prices match online already but they can't match grey market and they are also required to charge a 8.25% Texas sales tax so it's hard for me to walk in and plunk down $2500 for something I can get online grey market around Black Friday for something like $1800 with free shipping. I love that store but $800 is a serious amount of love that I'm not willing to give. And I'm somewhat of a softy. Most folks won't show any love for a $20 difference. Or even $5.

 

[Deleted member 91053]

Lets get one thing straight here the "Grey" market is entirely created by the manufacturers. So long as they (Canon, Nikon etc) insist on differential pricing then there will be a "Grey" market.

I recently purchased a Canon 7D2 for £530 ($800 US) less than I could get it from a UK "Authorised Dealer". It was bought from a UK based retailer with all relevant taxes paid. So why the price difference? The tax rates are the same (eg. VAT at 20%), it's still got to be shipped roughly the same distance and the retailer needs to make some profit so there is only one significant variable in the chain - CANON!
Luckily, for us in the EU, as it was bought in the UK from a UK retailer warranties still apply as does the Sale of Goods act.
Canon, Nikon etc etc are killing their own authorised dealer network and then (in the US) taking retailers to court for the results of their own pricing policies! Looks a little Orwellian to me.
If the authorised dealers could buy the cameras at a fair (same) price then they would be FAR more competitive and the Grey market would disappear virtually overnight. We, their customers, would be a lot happier too!

Come on Canon, play fair and you will make even more money from even happier customers.

 

[cfargo]

MAP doesnt exist in Europe its illegal under EU laws. Its not illegal to import anything from another country and sell it locally cheaper than national dealers etc. but the official distributors increasingly will not cover the warrenty which is normally covered by the importers albeit with no certainty.
I buy all my equipment through UK authorised resellers buying a camera & lenses are big investments which I want covered locally in the event of any fault and whilst so far Ive not had to send anything to Canon under warrenty I have had to for Olympus which they dealt with quickly.

Not true at all. I have a business in California and an Office in Germany. I bought MagLite flash lights from Home Depot in California and sold them through my German store. MagLite Germany (the exclusive distributor of MagLite's in Germany) got wind of this. It ended up costing me $1700 for the 3 AA MagLites I sold there in Germany.

 

[monkey44]

Regarding the warranty services - it seems up-selling warranty services is a big deal, and probably very lucrative for the retailer as well. I can recall not go long ago when a warranty was provided with NO -"Hey, you wanna buy the extended warranty for another 10% or more?" Many buyers get afraid of quality now, especially in electronic products as they fail so often, and then buy into the extended plans.

My bet here (and my experience) if a Canon product works the first year, it's very unlikely it will fail unless you abuse it. And, in all the years I've been shooting Canon DSLR, I've had only two warranty issues, and both immediately fixed at Canon factory (one week). But I need my equipment to work not fail, and if I have to hassle a 'grey market' retailer and delay shoots or miss sports events, then paying that difference becomes a no-brainer.

With non-pro shooters, the savings might be worth it, but that's a separate issue, I think.

 

[Deleted member 91053]

But I need my equipment to work not fail, and if I have to hassle a 'grey market' retailer and delay shoots or miss sports events, then paying that difference becomes a no-brainer.

With non-pro shooters, the savings might be worth it, but that's a separate issue, I think.

I agree with your thinking but reliability? I just checked some UK high street and "Grey" prices. In a nutshell for the price of a new 1DX (from an authorised dealer) I could buy a "Grey" 1DX (mine spoke Chinese) and a 7D2 (mine actually spoke English!) and, if I spent £250 more ($375 US) I could have another 7D2 thrown in!
So 1 camera or the same camera with 2 backups for a fraction more - if my income depends on it I know which I would go for! Note these include full UK taxes and warranties. Don't know where you live but in the UK it is a no-brainer which is why I feel it is so unfair for the authorised dealers.
I do all that I can to support local dealers but I simply cannot afford these price differentials!

 

[monkey44]

I live in USA - deal primarily with Adorama and B&H since my 'regular' local camera store bit the bullet a few years ago.

 

[Deleted member 91053]

I live in USA - deal primarily with Adorama and B&H since my 'regular' local camera store bit the bullet a few years ago.

That's the problem!
The store I used to use went belly up despite offering some excellent prices. Their deals on Gitzo tripods made the rip-offs look expensive!
The next nearest store (40+ miles) trades on it's (excellent and well deserved) reputation - it simply cannot compete on prices because Canon/Nikon will not allow it to do so.

I really don't understand their business model. They (Canon, Nikon etc) seem to think that overpricing their products in one region will guarantee more profits. We are now in a Global market, you and I can buy things from wherever we want to. So I can get gear at close to HK prices, fully guaranteed (EU Law) and VERY much cheaper than the high street camera shop can buy them (let alone sell them!) and with all relevant duties paid. In the long run it's the manufacturers who will suffer as they will have no more "Authorised" dealers to tempt newcomers with the latest toys. They are destroying their own shop window!