Update to EOS 5DS & 5DS R Coming in 2017? [CR1]

[privatebydesign]

Re: Update to EOS 5DS & 5DS R Coming in 2017? [CR1]

PBD -- excellent post, thanks. Everything you said was spot on and I continue to learn from your experience. Appreciated!

Now please consider someone who isn't you and lacks your sense of studio portraiture methodology, your commitment to detail, etc.

Like a wedding photographer with a 5DS who has to work a hurry. Using speedlites only. Who may will not crack out a tripod all day. Who may want some ambient light in the shot. Surely they would be in a bit of a pickle juggling higher shutter speeds for that high MP rig vs. their sync speed, right?

I am a rank amateur in this arena, I am not trying to pick an argument so much as understand. Please set me straight!

- A

The results for that wedding photographer would never be worse with the higher MP camera, but when he took the time to shoot the formals the results would be much more detailed.

Here are three wedding images of mine, though I don't shoot weddings very often!

The first one a high MP camera wouldn't help, but it would be no worse. I dragged the shutter with bounced camera mounted flash to get an ambient/flash exposure. 1/20 sec at f2.8 with the 24-70.

The second I again dragged the shutter to prevent the church ambient going too dark but the bulk of the exposure is two remote 600EX-RT's mounted on stands with umbrellas. The camera was mounted on a tripod and had I used a high MP camera I would have got the benefits of the increased resolution.

The third is handheld and is a candid moment using the same lights I had set up for the formals. Even though this is handheld the subject exposure is effectively the flash duration so again if I had used a higher MP camera I would have got the benefits of that.

Now my personal question is and has been, would those benefits allow me a greater revenue stream? The answer so far has been no, I don't need a higher MP camera at this point because the sizes of prints I sell can be made with the 21MP I have.

First image, bride putting on mothers makeup with brother/son in attendance. Bounced flash off wall/ceiling behind me, dragged shutter to balance ambient light, 1/20 sec f2.8, 24-70 f2.8.

Second image formal tripod mounted twin 600EX-RT's in umbrellas to both sides. Again dragged shutter to lighten background but subjects illuminated by short duration flash. 1/25 sec f9, 30mm, 24-70 f2.8.

Third image, handheld candid but utilizing the formal setup lights 1/25 sec f9 70mm, 24-70 f2.8.

 

[Alex_M]

Re: Update to EOS 5DS & 5DS R Coming in 2017? [CR1]

PBD's explanation makes perfect sense. I wanted to add some personal experience with flash / ambient ratios vs hand-hold-ability / image sharpness.
If I am shooting in deemly lit room, I try to set my exposure approximately 2 stops under ambient and add the flash as a key light. resulting flash to ambient ratio would be around 4:1 - if my calculations are correct. so.. 80% - key light (flash) and 20% ambient.
At the given ratio My flash would be set to fire at 1/4 - 1/1 power depending on the distance from flash to my subject.
yn600ex-RT flash duration at full power is around 1/300 sec. at 1/2 power - 1/600 sec, at 1/4 - 1/1200 sec and so on and so forth...
therefore at the given light ratios ambient light does not affect hand hold ability much - if at all..
shooting outdoors, ratios would be reversed and typically set at around 70% ambient / 30% flash or there abouts. Anything higher that 30-35% of flash starts looking unnatural to my eye. But thats my personal opinion only.

Good gracious, what a complete load of garbage!

love it. Brings back some memories from late 70's that's how we were told at school in the older days! straight to the point, no macking around. ouch.. LOL

 

[ahsanford]

Re: Update to EOS 5DS & 5DS R Coming in 2017? [CR1]

The results for that wedding photographer would never be worse with the higher MP camera, but when he took the time to shoot the formals the results would be much more detailed.

[truncated]

Thoughtful insights as always, PBD. Appreciated.

- A

 

[Shooter]

Re: Update to EOS 5DS & 5DS R Coming in 2017? [CR1]

If they allowed pre-orders now, I would do it in the blink of an eye. The original 5dsr is such a great camera, and the improvements I see in the 1dx2 would make it even better, closer to perfection.

I'm right there with you Jopa. I sold my two D810's after a couple week demo from Canon on the 5DS & SR, and bought two SR's. Shortly after that I upgraded my 1DX's to the series II model , thinking I'd shoot the SR's for architecture and the XII's for my faster aviation work. Turns out, because I love the file size and the cameras are so capable, I shoot 90% of my stuff with the 5DSR's. Having 144MB files to tweak will get one spoiled in a hurry.

 

[Click]

Re: Update to EOS 5DS & 5DS R Coming in 2017? [CR1]

Great shot, Shooter. 8)

 

[Maiaibing]

Re: Update to EOS 5DS & 5DS R Coming in 2017? [CR1]

Turns out, because I love the file size and the cameras are so capable, I shoot 90% of my stuff with the 5DSR's.

I also see the 5DS/R & 1DXII as a winning combo, with the 5DIV being a (very capable) compromise for those that need either more MPIX than the 1DXII or more fps than the 5DS/R.

For now I use the 5DS/R for pretty much everything and will rent/borrow to have more fps at hand when needed.
(Great shot BTW)

 

[Jopa]

Re: Update to EOS 5DS & 5DS R Coming in 2017? [CR1]

If they allowed pre-orders now, I would do it in the blink of an eye. The original 5dsr is such a great camera, and the improvements I see in the 1dx2 would make it even better, closer to perfection.

I'm right there with you Jopa. I sold my two D810's after a couple week demo from Canon on the 5DS & SR, and bought two SR's. Shortly after that I upgraded my 1DX's to the series II model , thinking I'd shoot the SR's for architecture and the XII's for my faster aviation work. Turns out, because I love the file size and the cameras are so capable, I shoot 90% of my stuff with the 5DSR's. Having 144MB files to tweak will get one spoiled in a hurry.

Very impressive shot! Wondering where you have to be to take this one?

 

[AshtonNekolah]

Re: Update to EOS 5DS & 5DS R Coming in 2017? [CR1]

<p>We’ve been told a couple of times that the EOS 5DS and EOS 5DS R would be updated quicker than other recent Canon full frame DSLRs, which have seen product cycles of 4 years or more. According to an internal Canon product roadmap, there’s a possibility of an EOS 5DS/R/ Mark II coming before the close of 2017 and that there will only be one body to replaces both the 5DS and 5DS R.</p>
<p>According to the viewed roadmap slide, the EOS 5DS/R/ replacement will get a new sensor, though resolution wasn’t mentioned. We can also assume it will have nearly the same ergonomics and features as the EOS 5D Mark IV.</p>
<p><em>More to come…</em></p>
<span id="pty_trigger"></span>

Will like to see if this is legit, sounds good to me.

 

[LonelyBoy]

Re: Update to EOS 5DS & 5DS R Coming in 2017? [CR1]

The idea that handholding a camera at very high resolution camera eventually is not handholdable is not entirely true. You just need some combination of a bright scene or a high ISO to get the shutter speed fast enough to overcome the risk of movement effecting your shot, right?

But your point is (directionally) correct. Mo pixels, mo problems. If the 5DS changed the rules on 1/focal length minimum shutter speeds, a 120 MP would change it even further.

- A

But at some point, won't those "detail-obsessed landscapers who would sell their car for a 120mpx/1fps body" run into issues even with a tripod and MLU? The sun isn't getting any brighter, so SS/ISO are limited, and at some point they'll run into the issues that an entire landscape is not going to be perfectly still all at once with wind, wildlife running around the trees and grass, etc. If they print or publish at a resolution that doesn't show the blur (whether at the resolution of a 30D or 5DSR) they don't gain anything from 120mpx, right? And if 120mpx doesn't show the light breeze or squirrel-shaken branch, then 200mpx will, or some number.

I mean, correct me if I'm wrong, but I can't see why not.

(Coffee may not have fully kicked in though.)

 

[tron]

Re: Update to EOS 5DS & 5DS R Coming in 2017? [CR1]

I wonder if 5DsRII will have 24 * 1.6^2 = 24 * 2.56 ~ 61.4 Mpixels.

I wish - but do not hope - they left the mpixels to the current 50 so as to benefit even more (noisewise) from the sensor technology improvement.

 

[rrcphoto]

Re: Update to EOS 5DS & 5DS R Coming in 2017? [CR1]

I wonder if 5DsRII will have 24 * 1.6^2 = 24 * 2.56 ~ 61.4 Mpixels.

I wish - but do not hope - they left the mpixels to the current 50 so as to benefit even more (noisewise) from the sensor technology improvement.

120MP. they already stated it really.

 

[Shooter]

Re: Update to EOS 5DS & 5DS R Coming in 2017? [CR1]

If they allowed pre-orders now, I would do it in the blink of an eye. The original 5dsr is such a great camera, and the improvements I see in the 1dx2 would make it even better, closer to perfection.

I'm right there with you Jopa. I sold my two D810's after a couple week demo from Canon on the 5DS & SR, and bought two SR's. Shortly after that I upgraded my 1DX's to the series II model , thinking I'd shoot the SR's for architecture and the XII's for my faster aviation work. Turns out, because I love the file size and the cameras are so capable, I shoot 90% of my stuff with the 5DSR's. Having 144MB files to tweak will get one spoiled in a hurry.

Very impressive shot! Wondering where you have to be to take this one?

Dear JOPA,

I apologize for the delay in my response to your question. I do a great deal of "air to air" photography assignments. My photo platforms vary, depending upon the subject aircraft, speed of the subject, budget and several other considerations. The image you asked about was taken from a Beechcraft A36 with the double side passenger doors removed. The A36 is a wonderfully capable photo platform and can fly at about 160 knots in the open configuration. Some of my subject aircraft are falling out of the sky at that speed so we go with aircraft like the WWII North American B25 Bomber which can fly at slightly faster speeds for limited duration, or military fighter jets where speed and performance is virtually unlimited.

 

[Shooter]

Re: Update to EOS 5DS & 5DS R Coming in 2017? [CR1]

Just spent several days with The US Navy Blue Angels during their pre season practice sessions. Everything I shot was captured with the 5DSR's, and they performed beautifully ............

 

[Jopa]

Re: Update to EOS 5DS & 5DS R Coming in 2017? [CR1]

If they allowed pre-orders now, I would do it in the blink of an eye. The original 5dsr is such a great camera, and the improvements I see in the 1dx2 would make it even better, closer to perfection.

I'm right there with you Jopa. I sold my two D810's after a couple week demo from Canon on the 5DS & SR, and bought two SR's. Shortly after that I upgraded my 1DX's to the series II model , thinking I'd shoot the SR's for architecture and the XII's for my faster aviation work. Turns out, because I love the file size and the cameras are so capable, I shoot 90% of my stuff with the 5DSR's. Having 144MB files to tweak will get one spoiled in a hurry.

Very impressive shot! Wondering where you have to be to take this one?

Dear JOPA,

I apologize for the delay in my response to your question. I do a great deal of "air to air" photography assignments. My photo platforms vary, depending upon the subject aircraft, speed of the subject, budget and several other considerations. The image you asked about was taken from a Beechcraft A36 with the double side passenger doors removed. The A36 is a wonderfully capable photo platform and can fly at about 160 knots in the open configuration. Some of my subject aircraft are falling out of the sky at that speed so we go with aircraft like the WWII North American B25 Bomber which can fly at slightly faster speeds for limited duration, or military fighter jets where speed and performance is virtually unlimited.

Kudos to you sir. For a regular person like me it sounds very complicated, but very cool and breathtaking The result is amazing.

 

[entoman]

Re: Update to EOS 5DS & 5DS R Coming in 2017? [CR1]

I would expect:
New sensor improvements reflecting the latest generation;
Some increase (70-80 mp);
No anti-aliasing filter;
DPAF;
Possibly, but not definitely, 4K;
Touchscreen;
WiFi-GPS-NFC;
5 fps.

This does make me wonder what Canon has planned for the out years.

If they follow the pattern of using essentially the same sensor in the 5Ds and the 7D, a 72 mp 5Ds would mean a 28 mp 7DIII, which seems reasonable. A 5Ds at the end of 2017, could be followed by a 7DIII in the first quarter of 2018, but then what?

I suppose we could see a 90D and an SL2 in there somewhere, but then it could be a long, dry spell for Canon Rumors before a major new model.

I don't see the 7DMkiii having 28MP. Remember it will have to shoot at least 10fps, probably 12 or 14fps to compete as a sports camera. That needs a huge buffer and masses of expensive processor power. More likely the 7DMkii will have 24MP, which when upscaled to FF would be 60MP, and that is more than enough for anyone.

I also suspect that the 5DSMkii will be a single model. It will probably not have AA filter, but ideally it would have a cancellable AA filter for situations where moire is common (fashion, wedding, bird feathers etc).

 

[jeffa4444]

Re: Update to EOS 5DS & 5DS R Coming in 2017? [CR1]

Don't be surprised if the Canon 5DS/ 5DSr MKII doesn't have a bump in MP but does have a bump in DR added to the revision in the 5D MKIV that it didn't get over the 5D MKIII.

Processing large files from the 5DS in raw really requires a good PC I upgraded to the new MacBook Pro fully maxed out with processor & memory as my previous MacBook Pro and my iMac in particular struggled in both Lightroom CC and Photoshop CC.

Unless photography gets more efficient compression codec then were storing trouble for ourselves.

 

[Maiaibing]

Re: Update to EOS 5DS & 5DS R Coming in 2017? [CR1]

Don't be surprised if the Canon 5DS/ 5DSr MKII doesn't have a bump in MP but does have a bump in DR added to the revision in the 5D MKIV that it didn't get over the 5D MKIII.

DR of 5DS/R is closer to 5DIV than 5DIII?

 

[Cthulhu]

Re: Update to EOS 5DS & 5DS R Coming in 2017? [CR1]

Don't be surprised if the Canon 5DS/ 5DSr MKII doesn't have a bump in MP but does have a bump in DR added to the revision in the 5D MKIV that it didn't get over the 5D MKIII.

DR of 5DS/R is closer to 5DIV than 5DIII?

5dsr has more dr than the 5dmk3, so I wouldn't be surprised if it had more than the 5dmk4

 

[ahsanford]

Re: Update to EOS 5DS & 5DS R Coming in 2017? [CR1]

Don't be surprised if the Canon 5DS/ 5DSr MKII doesn't have a bump in MP but does have a bump in DR added to the revision in the 5D MKIV that it didn't get over the 5D MKIII.

DR of 5DS/R is closer to 5DIV than 5DIII?

5dsr has more dr than the 5dmk3, so I wouldn't be surprised if it had more than the 5dmk4

DR values from DXO (someone please link me another site for this, I'm tired of referencing these knuckleheads):

70D (not on chip) = 11.6
7D2 (not on chip) = 11.8
80D (on chip) = 13.2

5D3 (not on chip) = 11.7
6D (not on chip) = 12.1
5DS (not on chip) = 12.4
5D4 (on chip) = 13.6

1DX (not on chip) = 11.8
1DX2 (on chip) = 13.5

So, yes, Canon will learn small ways to grind out more performance over time (see the 5D3 --> 6d --> 5DS improvements, all not on-chip), but the big bump came from moving to on-chip.

- A

 

[Maiaibing]

Re: Update to EOS 5DS & 5DS R Coming in 2017? [CR1]

Don't be surprised if the Canon 5DS/ 5DSr MKII doesn't have a bump in MP but does have a bump in DR added to the revision in the 5D MKIV that it didn't get over the 5D MKIII.

DR of 5DS/R is closer to 5DIV than 5DIII?

5dsr has more dr than the 5dmk3, so I wouldn't be surprised if it had more than the 5dmk4

DR values from DXO (someone please link me another site for this, (...)

So, yes, Canon will learn small ways to grind out more performance over time (see the 5D3 --> 6d --> 5DS improvements, all not on-chip), but the big bump came from moving to on-chip.

- A

This is a better measure of how large a DR the camera sensor can actually span: http://www.photonstophotos.net/Charts/PDR.htm

5DIII: 8.9
>= 0.32
6D: 9.22
> 0.57
5DSR: 9.79
>= 0.6
5DIV: 10.39

The jump from 6D to 5DSR to 5DIV is almost exactly the same. Meanwhile the 5DSR will begin to perform (slightly) better than the 5DIV >iso200. So on-chip may give something, but it does not seem that decisive for DR, more a way to control noise patterns.