Update to EOS 5DS & 5DS R Coming in 2017? [CR1]

[douglaurent]

Re: Update to EOS 5DS & 5DS R Coming in 2017? [CR1]

Canon is very smart. very very smart.
I've been contemplating going nikon after the 5d4 release but i will probably not.
Because in 1 year i will want canon everything. why?
My predictions are:

end 2016: sony releases an a9: 42-60 mp, maybe possibly 70
feb 2017: nikon announces a d820/d850/d900: 42 -60mp, it will have flip screen but will it have serious live view af?
Canon can now determine final specs of their upcoming releases for marketing purposes. Most development is already done or in it's final phase.
aug 2017: Canon announces a 5dsr mark II: 5div specced with around 60mp sensor new adc style, deaf. (No serious video stuff here)
sept 2017: canon announces m6: m5 like 30mp full frame mirrorless. 5d4 sensor with (dual) digic 7(+) for focus speed. And extended 4k compression options.

there's you flip screen ;-)

yeah they will trail sony sensors in DR by a half stop to a stop but it facilitates the dual pixel af capability and therefore will all be sensors developed for mirrorless camera's as wel as dslr's.

Canon will have a whole system lined up capable of using EF and EF-m lenses, it is a huge huge advantage over other systems.
I can have a 5d4 and m5/m6 for travel and backup and use all my lenses.
Or a 5dsrii and 5d4 for low light and m5 for casual use and bakcup and use all my lenses.

My girlfriend can use all my lenses on her vlog cam: 80d / m5

This total system social is a godsend for media pro's. The whole team will be able to use the same lenses
from vlog cam to pro stills cam to pro video cam. And all will be wifi and gps enabled to posting will be seamless.

The current 5d4 is just a bridge release in a real full system wide attack on both sony and Nikon.
I'm getting excited as hell to be honest.

While it's extremely likely that Sony will release a fusion of the A99II and A7RII in 2017, and Nikon will release a D820 with more MP and 4K, unfortunately there is no sign or evidence at all that Canon will release a competitive mirrorless full frame camera with EF mount, or a DSLR that tops the 5D4/1DX2 until the year 2020. The only likely thing to happen in this decade is a 5D version with 80-120MP, like shown at Photokina. Hoping for Canon can mean you lose years of your lifetime working with a way less convenient workflow than necessary.

 

[ExodistPhotography]

Re: Update to EOS 5DS & 5DS R Coming in 2017? [CR1]

The speedy 5DSR update is good to see! However, if they do put out 100-120mpix, this will truly be a specialty camera.

I quiet agree. While I do not think they will hit the 100MP mark just yet. They could push 60MP. But like you mentioned this would be a pretty much studio only camera IMHO. If they even tried to go 100MP, I am afraid ISO400 would be about the tops one would be able to hit and still be fairly noise free. However in the future when sensor sensitivity has hit a much cleaner level, this could be the case.

That said, lets look at two major reasons I do not think they will hit 100MP yet. Camera shake will be much much more pronounced, thus making this a camera you will only want to use with studio flashes (or speedlites) and there is the problem with atmospheric distortion that becomes more apparent with extreme MP cameras. While these are would not be noticeable at normal print sizes, every $hthead pixel peeper will be tripping out when looking at the images 1to1..

(EDIT)
Also like pointed out above, DIFFRACTION...

SO that said, IMHO it will likely be exactly like the 5D4, but likely 60MP and no AA.. Now IMHO, there is nothing wrong with the 5DSR now, I am highly debating it or the 6D2 next year..

 

[9VIII]

Re: Update to EOS 5DS & 5DS R Coming in 2017? [CR1]

• Canon is like a snake which slithers through the grass hunting for pry, unfortunately we are their victims.
  
• The company trades on the NYSE and only concerned about the maximum amount of blood they can take without killing the victim.
  
• They don't believe in being leaders in photo technology, only leaders in reliable gear?
  
• They don't wont to compete, as that's bad for profits, so they follow behind the leaders as not to push them forward.
  
• Decisions at what pace photo technology progress are discussed in Private Meetings. example: Canon, Nikon & Sony board members having dinner together. I guess none of the cell phone manufactures are dinning with them but SHOULD BE.
  

The funny thing is that over the last 30 years Canon has been the most aggressive company in the industry.

Canon has worse video features, for now. They are a relatively new start up in that sector (on the professional level) and are actively developing that aspect of their company, but the key phrase here is "photo technology" so video features aren't a factor.
Unless you're using them for photography, in which case Canon has the best 4K solution on the market.

The Shadow Noise Wars lasted all of four years before Canon and Nikon swapped positions in that competition (comparing 1DX2 and D5).

The only way that people can say Canon isn't competing is that they already lead everything. Which is obviously the situation they found themselves in at the end of last decade.

Basically what happened is the competition gave up trying to compete for the high end photography market and went and started a different game to compete in where the winner could be someone other than Canon.
That'll last about another five years.

 

[jolyonralph]

Re: Update to EOS 5DS & 5DS R Coming in 2017? [CR1]

I currently own the 5DSR (and a host of other cameras including 5DMk III, A7rII etc).

For me, the reason i bought this was for the resolution. I don't care about video, I don't care (to a huge extent) about ultra-impressive low-light performance, or high frame rate. I want pixels and lots of them.

But then I'm not printing stuff out in general, I'm using stuff online primarily for specialist applications and for this pixels are what I need.

I would hazard a guess that the majority of 5DSR owners are not new to Canon EOS, and that the majority may still have at least one other camera body.

Trying to make the 5DSR II be good at everything will ruin it. If you want a generalist camera the 5D IV is a fantastic option. If 30mpx are too few for you (why?) then the A7RII has a superb sensor.


The 80D sensor (well liked by people here) has a dot pitch of 3.73 µm

Assuming the same dot pitch and the same sensor technology put into a FF sensor, we'd get a resolution of something like 9333x6222 pixels - or around 58 megapixels.

So i wouldn't be surprised if that was the option chosen by Canon to upgrade the 5DSR.

However, for my needs an upgrade of 50 -> 58 megapixels isn't enough to make me want to upgrade.

My use of the camera is primarily in well-lit conditions and I am delighted with the quality of the current sensor. The only thing I'd like is to have even more pixels.

 

[M_S]

Re: Update to EOS 5DS & 5DS R Coming in 2017? [CR1]

I was thinking 2017 would only bring us the 6D and 7D mark II replacements and maybe the usual Rebel toys, but I guess concern over the Sony A9 / Nikon D810 replacements was paramount in Canon's boardroom. Probably same AF from 5D Mark IV minus the dual pixel stuff plus low-light sensor improvement

I was thinking the same. I am very pleased what I heard so far from the A9, hopefully they fix some annoyances from the A7 series. Then this will be a tough contender and high on my possible buy list. Spec-wise hard to top. Mark IV will not replace my Mark III for stated reasons. If the 5DSR II improves and they work on the buffer and fps, improve and implement WIFI, then I will have a look. For the time being, Mark III stays with me.

 

[mmeerdam]

Re: Update to EOS 5DS & 5DS R Coming in 2017? [CR1]

While it's extremely likely that Sony will release a fusion of the A99II and A7RII in 2017, and Nikon will release a D820 with more MP and 4K, unfortunately there is no sign or evidence at all that Canon will release a competitive mirrorless full frame camera with EF mount, or a DSLR that tops the 5D4/1DX2 until the year 2020. The only likely thing to happen in this decade is a 5D version with 80-120MP, like shown at Photokina. Hoping for Canon can mean you lose years of your lifetime working with a way less convenient workflow than necessary.

No sign? The 80d sensor had mirrorless (because of dpaf) written all over it when it was released. Not a year later there's the m5 completely based on dpaf for focussing. Now the 5d4 has basically the same tech layout in full frame and they kept it at 30mp. Probably not just because of holding back to not consume the 5ds sales. More so because more mp means more af processing power which would complicate full frame mirrorless too much until the next digic advancement.

I'm 100% sure we'll see a canon 5d4 mirrorless within 2 years tops, probably sooner.

Canon only releases stable products. They chose dual pixel af as their technology for years to come in favour of pdaf-on-sensor and hold off releasing serious mirrorless until they could roll out their tech reliably systemwide. Now they have the processing power available to advance to release aps-c. Next year it'll be full frame. It's a solid strategy and probably has Nikon worried quite a bit. Nikon will always need to rely on third party development and then needs to integrate seperate technologies into a complete system.

edit: Canon doesn't really directly respond to actual releases from competitors. Development cycles are way longer than that. I'm sure they know better than we do what Nikon and Sony are developing years ahead.

 

[GMCPhotographics]

Re: Update to EOS 5DS & 5DS R Coming in 2017? [CR1]

At a guess...55.5mp at 5fs?

 

[Alex_M]

Re: Update to EOS 5DS & 5DS R Coming in 2017? [CR1]

There are couple of things that if made available in 5dsr II would really make landscape (and not only) photographers happy:

1. improved dynamic range for capturing high contrast / high dynamic range "too well" lit scene to eliminate multiple exposures when possible.

2. colour depth: 16 bits (65,536 levels per channel) for extra smooth gradients and light fall off, etc,etc ..

apparently, these two points were convincing enough for many photographers (that can afford) to purchase the Mamiya 645DF+ Camera that offers 12.5 stops of Dynamic range and 16 bit per channel colour depth even at 0.7 - 1.1 frames/sec speed

My use of the camera is primarily in well-lit conditions and I am delighted with the quality of the current sensor. The only thing I'd like is to have even more pixels.

 

[9VIII]

Re: Update to EOS 5DS & 5DS R Coming in 2017? [CR1]

I currently own the 5DSR (and a host of other cameras including 5DMk III, A7rII etc).

For me, the reason i bought this was for the resolution. I don't care about video, I don't care (to a huge extent) about ultra-impressive low-light performance, or high frame rate. I want pixels and lots of them.

But then I'm not printing stuff out in general, I'm using stuff online primarily for specialist applications and for this pixels are what I need.

I would hazard a guess that the majority of 5DSR owners are not new to Canon EOS, and that the majority may still have at least one other camera body.

Trying to make the 5DSR II be good at everything will ruin it. If you want a generalist camera the 5D IV is a fantastic option. If 30mpx are too few for you (why?) then the A7RII has a superb sensor.


The 80D sensor (well liked by people here) has a dot pitch of 3.73 µm

Assuming the same dot pitch and the same sensor technology put into a FF sensor, we'd get a resolution of something like 9333x6222 pixels - or around 58 megapixels.

So i wouldn't be surprised if that was the option chosen by Canon to upgrade the 5DSR.

However, for my needs an upgrade of 50 -> 58 megapixels isn't enough to make me want to upgrade.

My use of the camera is primarily in well-lit conditions and I am delighted with the quality of the current sensor. The only thing I'd like is to have even more pixels.

I think the argument for a higher burst rate in a 5DS2 is for someone who might combine landscape and wildlife. If you're on the top of a mountain, you want the high resolution Full Frame sensor, but you're going to have some of your best wildlife opportunities during your hike up and down.
This is one point where I would love to see Canon use crop modes for faster burst speeds. They could even scale it differently for APS-H and APS-C.
80MP Full Frame at 3.5fps, 58MP APS-H at 5fps, and 33MP APS-C at 7fps (it could easily do 8, but this is Canon, at 7fps you're still sharing internals with the 5D4).

Maybe that's a better thought for a 1D body though, and bump it up all the way to 9fps. Or heck, make it a 75MP Full Frame sensor and make it 10fps at 31MP (assuming the data processing bandwidth on the 1DX2 is the highest Canon wants to implement right now).
That way some people might even be able to almost reasonably justify the cost of one body that's worth as much as two specialized bodies.

 

[Mikehit]

Re: Update to EOS 5DS & 5DS R Coming in 2017? [CR1]

No sign? The 80d sensor had mirrorless (because of dpaf) written all over it when it was released. Not a year later there's the m5 completely based on dpaf for focussing. Now the 5d4 has basically the same tech layout in full frame and they kept it at 30mp. Probably not just because of holding back to not consume the 5ds sales. More so because more mp means more af processing power which would complicate full frame mirrorless too much until the next digic advancement.

I'm 100% sure we'll see a canon 5d4 mirrorless within 2 years tops, probably sooner.

Canon only releases stable products. They chose dual pixel af as their technology for years to come in favour of pdaf-on-sensor and hold off releasing serious mirrorless until they could roll out their tech reliably systemwide. Now they have the processing power available to advance to release aps-c. Next year it'll be full frame. It's a solid strategy and probably has Nikon worried quite a bit. Nikon will always need to rely on third party development and then needs to integrate seperate technologies into a complete system.

edit: Canon doesn't really directly respond to actual releases from competitors. Development cycles are way longer than that. I'm sure they know better than we do what Nikon and Sony are developing years ahead.

5D mirrorless in 2 years? No chance.
Battery life in mirrorless cameras is pathetic and considering the profile that the 5D4 is aimed at I doubt any pro or serious amateur will want to be out in the field changing batteries 3 times a day risking missing the shot.
And AF performance on pure mirrorless is not as good - saying that [choose manufacturer, probably 'Sony'] is 'nearly as good' will not cut it for the pro or serious amateur. Don't forget that Canon's dual pixel is used largely for video and live view, not general stills photography. Introducing a new technology with strong upsides is irrelevant if the functions they need and rely on (and buy it for) drop in effectiveness or quality. This is the part that many wishlisters forget.

 

[Loswr]

Re: Update to EOS 5DS & 5DS R Coming in 2017? [CR1]

There are couple of things that if made available in 5dsr II would really make landscape (and not only) photographers happy:

1. improved dynamic range for capturing high contrast / high dynamic range "too well" lit scene to eliminate multiple exposures when possible.

2. colour depth: 16 bits (65,536 levels per channel) for extra smooth gradients and light fall off, etc,etc ..

apparently, these two points were convincing enough for many photographers (that can afford) to purchase the Mamiya 645DF+ Camera that offers 12.5 stops of Dynamic range and 16 bit per channel colour depth even at 0.7 - 1.1 frames/sec speed

Your definition of 'many photographers' is quite different than Canon's – I suspect Canon would consider the total global sales of the 645DF+ to be 'insignificant' compared to the 5Ds/R unit sales.

 

[Bernard]

Re: Update to EOS 5DS & 5DS R Coming in 2017? [CR1]

What they need to fix in the 5Ds camera is the viewfinder. It's a 50 megapixel camera with a 5 megapixel viewfinder!
The non-interchangeable screen is soft (but bright), and it's overlaid with tons of useless information. This makes it impossible to use all the megapixels without resorting to live view and a tripod. You might as well go mirrorless.

I can understand the cheap vf in the 5D4, because people use that camera for sports with AF, but it's shameful on the 5Ds. Canon is an optical company at heart, they should be able to engineer a viewfinder.

Other than that, I'm sure we'll see DPAF and a slight DR increase. I wouldn't count on 4K, that's what the 5D4 and C300-2 are for.

 

[jeffa4444]

Re: Update to EOS 5DS & 5DS R Coming in 2017? [CR1]

Ive owned & used the 5DS since August 2015 and taken thousands of shots with it some of which have been used on stand backgrounds so pretty big printed. Firstly the low pass filter argument is really a non-starter the difference is almost impossible to see whereas moire you can clearly see when it occurs normally in certain clothing or brickwork etc, in landscape never.
The diffraction argument (some say f6.7 some say f8) again is hardly noticed up to f11 and that where I aim for in landscape. Image blur? yes you need to be more careful but its good practise you need to follow. The resolution improvements and the ability to severely crop (if required) are real world benefits of 50MP and the mechanical changes Canon made really do make a difference.

I can see Canon changing to simplify production using the same shell, electronics, battery grip etc. as to other changes built in Wi-Fi, GPS as the 5D MKIV and the 6D make sense as this is a great landscape camera. The other area is dynamic range the single biggest in the field problem with the current camera in low light it simply struggles. Other than that I cannot see why you would need 70 / 120MP but if that's the road they take they will need to speed up lens improvements because contrary to others on this thread you can see the lens limitations at 50MP even if its still better resolution than at 20-30MP but Nyquist is an argument for another day.

 

[Alex_M]

Re: Update to EOS 5DS & 5DS R Coming in 2017? [CR1]

I agree with you, because not many were able to afford the associated cost. hence my statement is: many photographers (that can afford) ...
I am sure, that most if not all 5dsr owners will appreciate base ISO DR boost and 16bit colors per channel option if available and does not cost them a kidney or even two.

There are couple of things that if made available in 5dsr II would really make landscape (and not only) photographers happy:

1. improved dynamic range for capturing high contrast / high dynamic range "too well" lit scene to eliminate multiple exposures when possible.

2. colour depth: 16 bits (65,536 levels per channel) for extra smooth gradients and light fall off, etc,etc ..

apparently, these two points were convincing enough for many photographers (that can afford) to purchase the Mamiya 645DF+ Camera that offers 12.5 stops of Dynamic range and 16 bit per channel colour depth even at 0.7 - 1.1 frames/sec speed

Your definition of 'many photographers' is quite different than Canon's – I suspect Canon would consider the total global sales of the 645DF+ to be 'insignificant' compared to the 5Ds/R unit sales.

 

[jolyonralph]

Re: Update to EOS 5DS & 5DS R Coming in 2017? [CR1]

I think the argument for a higher burst rate in a 5DS2 is for someone who might combine landscape and wildlife.

That way some people might even be able to almost reasonably justify the cost of one body that's worth as much as two specialized bodies.

I don't disagree. I was stating my particular requirements which are never going to be the same as everyone elses. I presume higher burst in 5DS2 could be achieved with CFast2 and moving to dual Digic 7 - but as nice as that is for me it's not a dealbreaker.

I still think for people who want a *single* body the 5DMkIV is a better option (at least right now), and if I were going up that mountain with the 5DSR and a nice wideangle lens, I'd keep another body handy (An EOS M5 for example) for 'close encounters'.

 

[mmeerdam]

Re: Update to EOS 5DS & 5DS R Coming in 2017? [CR1]

5D mirrorless in 2 years? No chance.
Battery life in mirrorless cameras is pathetic and considering the profile that the 5D4 is aimed at I doubt any pro or serious amateur will want to be out in the field changing batteries 3 times a day risking missing the shot.
And AF performance on pure mirrorless is not as good - saying that [choose manufacturer, probably 'Sony'] is 'nearly as good' will not cut it for the pro or serious amateur. Don't forget that Canon's dual pixel is used largely for video and live view, not general stills photography. Introducing a new technology with strong upsides is irrelevant if the functions they need and rely on (and buy it for) drop in effectiveness or quality. This is the part that many wishlisters forget.

It won't be called a 5d obviously and it wont be a replacement. Same setup as the m5. Just same megapixels and video functions as 5d4. By the way how is the dual pixel af on the m5 for stills. have you tried? I guess not. I know Sony isn't on par, i went that route and hate it. But in a year to 2 years the tech should have caught up. It is also why Canon uses dpaf instead of pdaf, they believe dpaf will be betetr than on sensor pdaf. Sony will hit a plateau probably with pdaf. dpaf speed is only limited by throughput and processing power which will keep increasing. pdaf will get more complicated (and less reliable) as pixels and therefore pdaf points will decrease in size.

Maybe hybrid or even mirrorless 5d series in 4 years. perfect planning.
I'm not a wishlister at all with this. I'm describing a eos systems strategy prediction which i think would fit Canon as a company. Everybody said the 5d4 would not have more than 24 maybe 28 mp. I predicted it would have 30 at least because of long term strategy needs not because of personal preferences.

My personal wishlist is a 42mp, hybrid viewfinder 5d4, that does full frame video and 4k at 60fps. AN all round in between. But it won't get made, i know.

 

[Loswr]

Re: Update to EOS 5DS & 5DS R Coming in 2017? [CR1]

No sign? The 80d sensor had mirrorless (because of dpaf) written all over it when it was released. Not a year later there's the m5 completely based on dpaf for focussing. Now the 5d4 has basically the same tech layout in full frame and they kept it at 30mp. Probably not just because of holding back to not consume the 5ds sales. More so because more mp means more af processing power which would complicate full frame mirrorless too much until the next digic advancement.

I'm 100% sure we'll see a canon 5d4 mirrorless within 2 years tops, probably sooner.

Canon only releases stable products. They chose dual pixel af as their technology for years to come in favour of pdaf-on-sensor and hold off releasing serious mirrorless until they could roll out their tech reliably systemwide. Now they have the processing power available to advance to release aps-c. Next year it'll be full frame. It's a solid strategy and probably has Nikon worried quite a bit. Nikon will always need to rely on third party development and then needs to integrate seperate technologies into a complete system.

edit: Canon doesn't really directly respond to actual releases from competitors. Development cycles are way longer than that. I'm sure they know better than we do what Nikon and Sony are developing years ahead.

5D mirrorless in 2 years? No chance.
Battery life in mirrorless cameras is pathetic and considering the profile that the 5D4 is aimed at I doubt any pro or serious amateur will want to be out in the field changing batteries 3 times a day risking missing the shot.
And AF performance on pure mirrorless is not as good - saying that [choose manufacturer, probably 'Sony'] is 'nearly as good' will not cut it for the pro or serious amateur. Don't forget that Canon's dual pixel is used largely for video and live view, not general stills photography. Introducing a new technology with strong upsides is irrelevant if the functions they need and rely on (and buy it for) drop in effectiveness or quality. This is the part that many wishlisters forget.

I don't think anyone belives Canon will replace the 5D series with mirrorless any time soon, nor do I think that's being suggested.

I do think it's certainly possible for Canon to bring out a FF MILC within two years. Most likely it would be at the 6D level, not aimed at the 'pro' market. Being possible doesn't mean it will be done, climbing Mt. Everest because it's there isn't necessarily a sound business strategy.

 

[JMZawodny]

Re: Update to EOS 5DS & 5DS R Coming in 2017? [CR1]

it would be around 1EV different from the 50MP DSLR, or you use it with oversampling in mind. at the same print sizes, the 120Mp sensor will certainly look better than 50mp and have the same influence of camera shake.

not to mention that most full frame shooters apparently don't have the discipline for APS-C cropped sensors that are a higher pixel density because they are losing their minds at 50mp.

A cropped 24mp APS-C camera is the full frame equivalent for shake and blurr at the same actual focal as a 60MP full frame sensor.

somehow it's ONLY an issue with full frame cameras :

I completely agree.

I had to really improve my technique when I got the 7D2. I had been shooting with the 5D2 up until then. My photos with the 7D2 were initially a very mixed bag of slightly blurred with an occasional sharp image. At the time, the web was full of stories and posts of the 7D2 having soft focus issues (it could not be the photographer's fault). I eventually improved my technique and now the photos are rarely soft (unless it is my fault and I generally know right away which ones will be bad).

I've since replaced the 5D2 with a 1Dx2 for low light and I'd love a 60+mp 5Ds2 for landscapes, once I retire in a just over a year. The M5 is going to have some very tiny pixels and I think the small form factor of that body is going challenge my technique once again.

Live and learn (I mean that in a positive sense).

 

[Jack Douglas]

Re: Update to EOS 5DS & 5DS R Coming in 2017? [CR1]

mmeerdam, good comments. And about people wasting their lives waiting for Canon .... oh me oh my.

Jack

 

[rrcphoto]

Re: Update to EOS 5DS & 5DS R Coming in 2017? [CR1]

intriguing comments.. could they / would they decide that the 5Ds Mark II is mirrorless? is there actually an advantage of it being that way?

I can't see it "quite" yet .. however I think the key will be the 6D - if it is going for smaller and lighter, that may be a good change to make the first EF mount mirrorless camera. You'd think that since the 6D isn't built for high performance AF they could roll with this. it makes the camera smaller, and lighter and cheaper to manufacturer.

Canon rolling out the first $1600 full frame camera? possible? *before sony fans snivel.. no A7 series camera was announced at less than $1699. what sony is trying to dump them for now because no one wants them is not relevant.

Then you have the 6D as the mirrorless 24-28MP option

The 5D IV and 5Ds Mark II still OVF until the next version which would then most likely move to mirrorless hybrid.